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pits

Original Poster:

4,574 posts

76 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th November 2009 quote quote all
After I noticed a post in SP&L about people being fined for SORN charges, and the distinct lack of coverage with regards to this matter, I thought I would relay the info, that the DVLA have been acting illegally with there SORN charges.

I am only relaying this info on.




http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/25/dvla_dodgi...

sickpup said:
I warn you this is hard going.

It's the next day and I must admit to being a bit low over it all. Although I won and DVLA will now be forced to follow the law a bit more I had evidence that they had been breaking the law for 5 years with these fines but wasn't able to use it as I beat them at the absolute first legal point.

The first point of my Defence was that DVLA cannot prove that I hadn't sent them a SORN declaration. As anyone who follows my legal lessons on here :wink: knows one of my favourite Acts is Section 7 Interpretations act 1978 (IA78) which reads as follows...

. said:
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression "serve" or the expression" give " or " send " or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.
So DVLA had to prove I had had no intention of sending the SORN declaration and that they hadn't received it, not an easy thing to do.

Over the last few months I've also been firing off Freedom of Information requests on little looked at but pertinent subjects. One of these concerned DVLA losing mail internally and can be seen in this link [url=http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/internally_lost_mail_and_sorn_de#incoming-22566]DVLA and internally lost mail.[/url]
Now it's not the easiest webpage to read but basically it comes down to DVLA are losing mail internally although they don't know how much as they only record it if you make a written complaint to the Chief Executive. If you complain on the phone they ignore the complaint and don't record it, an imaginative way of keeping the lost numbers down. In fact if you send them a SORN decleration by recorded delivery and they lose it you can phone them up, give them the tracking No and they will check the POD (proof of delivery) online, agree they received it then not record it as lost.

The woman representing the DVLA wasn't actually legally trained so when the Judge asked her about the act she replied with 'I don't know it' to which the judge pointed out that as it was part of my defence AND DVLA had a copy in their claims bundle maybe she should be at least conversant with it! as the woman stammered away again saying she wasn't legally trained the Judge offered her a half hour break to phone her superiors and seek clarification which she jumped at so a half hour break was called in the proceedings.

After the break we went back into the Courtroom to resume and the DVLA woman had a page of notes and triumphantly declared that the words used in one of the Schedules of the SORN act was 'Delivered' as in 'Delivered to the Secretary of state' and as delivered wasn't a word within IA78 that it couldn't apply. I pointed out to the Judge that yes 'Delivered' didn't appear in the act but the phrase 'whether the expression "serve" or the expression" give " or " send " or any other expression is used' did and I believed in encompassed any other word used, the Judge agreed with me.
The Judge checked the Encarta Encyclopaedia for the definition of the word 'Delivered' and concluded that under the definition I would have had to personally Deliver the SORN notification to Swansea. The Judge decided that this was a nonsense and that to require everyone in the UK to hand deliver all SORN notifications to Swansea would be ridiculous so ruled in my favour in this instance.
The Judge gave the woman from the DVLA several more chances to refute service of the notice but in my view she was well out of her depth, she just couldn't grasp the idea that she had to prove DVLA hadn't received the notification and eventually caved in at which point the Judge poured scorn upon DVLA's prosecution statement and it's attempts to curry favour with the court and pointed out that as this case was covered by civil procedure rules he had no discretion and he had to follow the law to the letter and as such after a finding of fact that I had sent the SORN notification that the case would be found in my favour. He suggested to the DVLA that they could of course appeal the decision but in a voice that rather suggested it would be a very bad idea.

This has been going on for 2 years now and in that time I've had a lot of help and support from forum members giving advice and proof reading legal arguments to make sure they make sense. I woud like to thank the following members for putting up with me in that time and giving advice. Lozzypop1, Kickstart, BlueX5, Tarmacsurfer, Robby, Queen of String. There are many others who have supported me who don't get mentioned Including WildGoose who supplied me with Paperwork that sadly I didn't get to use in Court but may just force DVLA to repay people some of their money. This case was only won because of the help people on BCF gave me.

Although I won in court I didn't get to hurt DVLA but I have opened a huge legal hole in their collection of SORN penalties so I have mixed feelings over the day. I won on a very simple point but if the case had gone further I could have done some real damage to them. In fact I sort of hope they do appeal as then the full cse will be heard.
What that means/what I make of it, is that every SORN fine the DVLA have ever issued has been illegal, and not within the letter of the law, unless you have hand delivered your return to Swansea.

Yet there seems to be no coverage on this story weird that, if I have understood this correctly then we as motorists have been illegally fined for the DVLA's usual incompetence



On another point whilst searching for this info the DVLA also seem to be selling our details on
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/4957871/M...


It would be nice to know or get some clarification that we could claim back these SORN charges.

Edited by pits on Wednesday 18th November 10:58


Edited by pits on Wednesday 18th November 10:58

hornetrider

49,029 posts

91 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th November 2009 quote quote all
Hmmm, very interesting indeed. Perhaps this would be better in SP+L to get some accurate feedback.

pits

Original Poster:

4,574 posts

76 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th November 2009 quote quote all
I thought about SP&L but the coverage in GG would be better for getting peoples piss boiling and have an angry mob of PH'ers ready with pitchforks, and witch burning materials.

TEKNOPUG

9,829 posts

91 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th November 2009 quote quote all
It's a moot point though - there could be many thousands of motorists who never bothered to SORN their car and can claim back their fines on a technically. However, this sort of ongoing incompetance by the DVLA needs to be addressed (well, the DVLA needs to be scrapped really....)

pits

Original Poster:

4,574 posts

76 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th November 2009 quote quote all
TEKNOPUG said:
It's a moot point though - there could be many thousands of motorists who never bothered to SORN their car and can claim back their fines on a technically. However, this sort of ongoing incompetance by the DVLA needs to be addressed (well, the DVLA needs to be scrapped really....)
Is it really a technicality though? Regardless if people have not bothered to do it, they DVLA still have not acted within the letter of the law, therefore shirley making all the fines null and void.

According to the stats there are roughly
61,399,118 people in the uk
30,000,000 cars registered on the road, or thereabouts

Lets say that 10,000,000 have had these £80 SORN charges and paid them, so thats 10,000,000 X £80 = 800,000,000 or 800 million British pounds, which is a realistic figure I think.

DVLA incompetence does need to be addressed especially when Labour has already bankrupted the country, thats £800 million that will need to be found from somewhere, if this was made more public it could really mess the DVLA up big time, more than the DVLA themselves could mess things up, as lets face it the DVLA have cocked everyone up some way or another, due to there incompetence and it us that get the blame
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Parrot of Doom

23,075 posts

120 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th November 2009 quote quote all
Well done. The level of incompetence in the public sector, its quite amazing. Just the other day I received a response to my argument against a parking ticket. The email began "Please find attached response to you challenge", before telling me that despite not following the law, the ticket still stands. Like you, I'm not about to give in.

Edited by Parrot of Doom on Wednesday 18th November 11:31

t84

6,941 posts

80 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th November 2009 quote quote all
Bookmarked, Sickpup is a friend of mine.

Deva Link

26,934 posts

131 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th November 2009 quote quote all

pits said:
Lets say that 10,000,000 have had these £80 SORN charges and paid them, so thats 10,000,000 X £80 = 800,000,000 or 800 million British pounds, which is a realistic figure I think.
10M is well OTT. If you read the linked TheRegister article it says that from March 2003 to November 2006, 995,000 (must admit even that's a lot higher than I would have guessed) penalty notices were issued, but even those that paid would probably have mostly paid the £40 early payment penalty.

pits

Original Poster:

4,574 posts

76 months

[news] 
Wednesday 18th November 2009 quote quote all
Regardless if its OTT or not, maybe it is, the DVLA have still fked us, and blamed their errors on us, and that we should have to foot the bill.

I still cant believe their is hardly any interest in this, the man is a hero, proving publicly and legally that the DVLA make mistakes and that we shouldn't have to pay for this.

Finally some common sense is being played out in this country, the DVLA should now be legally obliged to pay back all fines, and to re-think there etiquette with regards to dealing with the general public.

DVLA needs stripping back to basics and starting again, managed correctly and except responsibility for the failings.

B'stard Child

7,266 posts

132 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th November 2009 quote quote all
Every time I've had a fine for SORN non compliance they've had a std letter from me - take me to court as it's the only way you are going to recieve a penny from me - they have alwasy gone quiet after that - it appears that the OP has ended up being a test case and it looks to me like the DVLA have made a hash of it.... no surprise there then.

vz-r_dave

2,655 posts

104 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th November 2009 quote quote all
I am amazed that this has not gone public and that the big bods of the DVLA have not been sacked. They have been stealing money from the public.

Deva Link

26,934 posts

131 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th November 2009 quote quote all
pits said:
I still cant believe their is hardly any interest in this, the man is a hero, proving publicly and legally that the DVLA make mistakes and that we shouldn't have to pay for this.

The case was a year ago and Googling doesn't throw up many hits, apart from on a few forums - it is a bit odd that the Daily Mail etc didn't seem to pick up on it.

I guess it also has implications for those who have to pay no-tax fines after they've disposed of cars when DVLA says they didn't receive the change notification.

Edited by Deva Link on Thursday 19th November 10:32

308mate

11,316 posts

108 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th November 2009 quote quote all
B'stard Child said:
Every time I've had a fine for SORN non compliance they've had a std letter from me - take me to court as it's the only way you are going to recieve a penny from me - they have alwasy gone quiet after that
Dont suppose you'd care to post up a copy of that would you? scratchchin

Or PM?

pits

Original Poster:

4,574 posts

76 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th November 2009 quote quote all
Deva Link said:
pits said:
I still cant believe their is hardly any interest in this, the man is a hero, proving publicly and legally that the DVLA make mistakes and that we shouldn't have to pay for this.

The case was a year ago and Googling doesn't throw up many hits, apart from on a few forums - it is a bit odd that the Daily Mail etc didn't seem to pick up on it.

I guess it also has implications for those who have to pay no-tax fines after they've disposed of cars when DVLA says they didn't receive the change notification.

Edited by Deva Link on Thursday 19th November 10:32
No the case was started a year ago, the court ruling was about 4 weeks ago, its new news.

B'stard Child

7,266 posts

132 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th November 2009 quote quote all
308mate said:
B'stard Child said:
Every time I've had a fine for SORN non compliance they've had a std letter from me - take me to court as it's the only way you are going to recieve a penny from me - they have alwasy gone quiet after that
Dont suppose you'd care to post up a copy of that would you? scratchchin

Or PM?
I'd rather not print it out exactly = along the the lines of I have made every reasonable effort to comply with the legislation - however proving delivery by Postal Service is out of my control and therefore not reasonable - with respect Foxtrot Oscar.

pits

Original Poster:

4,574 posts

76 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th November 2009 quote quote all
Case was finished on 26 oct 2009, its a new case, there was a bbc link to it I am sure of it, now its gone

Deva Link

26,934 posts

131 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th November 2009 quote quote all
pits said:
Deva Link said:
pits said:
I still cant believe their is hardly any interest in this, the man is a hero, proving publicly and legally that the DVLA make mistakes and that we shouldn't have to pay for this.

The case was a year ago and Googling doesn't throw up many hits, apart from on a few forums - it is a bit odd that the Daily Mail etc didn't seem to pick up on it.

I guess it also has implications for those who have to pay no-tax fines after they've disposed of cars when DVLA says they didn't receive the change notification.

Edited by Deva Link on Thursday 19th November 10:32
No the case was started a year ago, the court ruling was about 4 weeks ago, its new news.
In that case there's been even less comment about the recent decision (pretty well none) than when the case first started. Very strange.

eliters

129 posts

64 months

[news] 
Thursday 19th November 2009 quote quote all
bookmarked!
I have a case coming up early december for allegedly failing to notify of selling a vehicle which i did as per the rules,think ill be using this smile

chris7676

2,473 posts

106 months

[news] 
Friday 20th November 2009 quote quote all
it's all weird and the other way around than it should be.
so you can be shafted by them when you don't receive something they sent and you are supposed to act accordingly ?
why don't people / institutions use registered mail in this country ?

mepetersone

1 posts

12 months

[news] 
Monday 14th October 2013 quote quote all
How about this; A couple of weeks ago I awoke to three police officers in my bedroom. They woke me up and told me they had a warrant for my arrest for an outstanding fine of £305.00 regarding a sorn that I had sent of over 2 years ago. I asked how they got in my flat and was told I had left my door open the night before. How convinenant. One of my neighbours saw them banging in the supposed closed door saying open up or we will break the door. Well they must have slipped the Yale lock and let themselves in. As it happened I was due to have eye surgry that day I proved this to them and they told me to report to Greenwich Magistates court at ten o clock that morning to enable me to go to have the eye operation. I did as I was told and was intructed by the warrant officer to appear in Bromley magistartes court the next Tuesday. I turned up at the apointed time of 10 am an was finaly before the magistrate at 4.00pm.
I told the magistrate I had sent the sorn off. Ialso told him I had got the letter from Swansea saying I had not and tried to phone them but could not get through evntually giving up and forgetting about it. Next came the summons to go to court. Now let me tell you aboring thing that could be called mitigating services. I have a few mental breakdowns in my life the last one left me with fybromyalgia, at times I am in excriciating pain have mind fog and forgetfullness. Ialso have a propblem remembering dates. I was also attending crise for counselling as my mother had recently past away. I believe I actually went for counseling on the day of the court date. I was fined £305.00 . When I got the fine I tried calling the court to ask to challenge this dissproporyunate fine but could not get through and when I did the the phone just went dead. Eventually I phoned a legal service and they seem to have a direct line to the court services. We hhad athree way phone conversation. I was told I was to late to apeal so agreed a payment plan which the court said they would send me a copy of. Guess what It never turned up. Eventually March this year I got a letter from a bailiff and the cahrge had gone up to £605.
Iwrote back to the bailiff with a copy of a letter from my GP and criuse regarding my fybromialgian and mental health issues also outlining there carges were excessive and ilgale and due to mmy vunerability at the time they would not be allowed to call at my door. They sent me a letter saying they would send my case back tto the court. Thatwas the last I heard of it untill the police gained acess to my flat at 5.30am Yes a pre dawn raid with meatwagon full of other old bill. They were questioned by my neigbour why this time of day. He was told that is how they catch this sort of person. To summerise they gained acces to my flat enterd my bedroom I ended up in court a few days later and was told to pay the fine by the beak. Uptill now I had respect for the police and legal system. No doubt being a member of the public whom they are meant to serve it is no longer the publick intrest but that of th chancellor they care about.
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