RE: Fiat's Electric 500
Tuesday 12th January 2010
It's fair to say that electric cars are a bit of a theme at Detroit this year, and Fiat is clearly keen to join in with the electric fun. Enter the Fiat 500 BEV (which - disappointingly - is an acronym for 'battery electric vehicle' rather than being short for the name Beverly).
Fiat's Electric 500
500 BEV electric concept hits Detroit
Unlike the electric BMW 1-series, however, the 500 BEV is purely a concept. There are no plans for production - the BEV has been created so that Fiat and Chrysler can investigate the viability of a small, sporty electric car.
With a body based on the 500 Abarth, the bronze BEV certainly looks good, but we can't even guess as to how it runs, because Fiat isn't even talking ball-park power or range figures.
The fact that it has four seats also strongly suggests to us that the BEV isn't a runner - where would they put the batteries?
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Discussion
How useless - both the show car and PH for reporting such marketing drivel.
Emperors new clothes and that - IT'S JUST A FIAT 500!
I hear next year they'll be showing a Bravo and telling everyone how it'll go 1000mph and be able to hover and fold down into a suitcase - but won't say how I'll do it or even if it's possible.
Emperors new clothes and that - IT'S JUST A FIAT 500!
I hear next year they'll be showing a Bravo and telling everyone how it'll go 1000mph and be able to hover and fold down into a suitcase - but won't say how I'll do it or even if it's possible.
soad said:
Seems everyone is jumping on the electric car bandwagon this year. Whether it's actually practical, or not. 
While I agree it's not really practical at the moment, battery tech is progressing quickly and it will be practical soon enough.The research that's going into the bandwagon at the moment is all worthwhile stuff, and they're relatively straighforward to slap together so it makes no sense to keep the work in a dry presentation for management when you could be wheeling something shiny and whirry in front of the public and then punt it around a test track for various sorts of testing after you're done with it.
The Wookie said:
soad said:
Seems everyone is jumping on the electric car bandwagon this year. Whether it's actually practical, or not.
While I agree it's not really practical at the moment, battery tech is progressing quickly and it will be practical soon enough.The research that's going into the bandwagon at the moment is all worthwhile stuff, and they're relatively straighforward to slap together so it makes no sense to keep the work in a dry presentation for management when you could be wheeling something shiny and whirry in front of the public and then punt it around a test track for various sorts of testing after you're done with it.
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/index.php
before you say "excessively expensive" the price is in dollars.
The Wookie said:
soad said:
Seems everyone is jumping on the electric car bandwagon this year. Whether it's actually practical, or not.
While I agree it's not really practical at the moment, battery tech is progressing quickly and it will be practical soon enough.The research that's going into the bandwagon at the moment is all worthwhile stuff, and they're relatively straighforward to slap together so it makes no sense to keep the work in a dry presentation for management when you could be wheeling something shiny and whirry in front of the public and then punt it around a test track for various sorts of testing after you're done with it.
GM is using a 16kwh battery in the Volt but only using 8.8kwh of the batteries capacity. This is enough for 40 miles of driving. The Tesla power pack has a capacity of 53kwh and weighs 450kg which equals a energy density of 117wh/kg, this compares to 160wh/kg for a basic lithium ion cell.
If we use the GM Volt miles/kwh and the factor from the Tesla for converting a cell into a usable battery we can work out that a battery capable of powering a medium sized car 300 miles would weigh in at 180kg.
Given that the Tesla motor weighs in at 35kg (plus a similar mass for diff and power electronics) and replaces a 140kg engine, 50kg transmission, 15 kg conventional battery, 20-30kg of exhaust and most of the cooling system it is feasible that a fully electric car may actually reach performance and range parity with petrol car in the next 10 years.
Especially as the small size of the electric motor and the fact that it needs a fraction of the cooling and no inlet and exhaust will allow designers to make some significant changes to the layout of the car as well.
Edited by Talksteer on Wednesday 13th January 00:37
The Wookie said:
While I agree it's not really practical at the moment, battery tech is progressing quickly and it will be practical soon enough.
OK lets set the marker at 2010 and see how long (guessing at least 5 years) it takes for 'battery tech' to be practical enough to even rival the most average IC engine?ctallchris said:
i would say by the time they start coming out they will be practical (in the uk at least - after all the new tesla touts a range that would comfortably get you to lands end, holyhead, carlisle or paris on a single charge from the centre of london. recharge in 45 minutes, seats 5 adults and two children while still retaining a boot and does the 60 dash quicker than a E34 BMW M5. I fail to see the impractical side.
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/index.php
before you say "excessively expensive" the price is in dollars.
If it can be charged in 45 minutes and actually realise that range with some to spare to reduce range anxiety, then I'll agree, but IMO until you can charge one at the side of the road in 5-10 minutes, or one charge can last as long as a human being can drive the thing without falling asleep then it isn't as practical as an IC engined car and therefore there will continue to be minority takeuphttp://www.teslamotors.com/models/index.php
before you say "excessively expensive" the price is in dollars.
Talksteer said:
The interesting battery tech in development at the moment is the Lithium Sulphur chemistry. Currently that is showing lab results of 500-600wh/kg (the fundamental chemistry allows for up to 2500wh/kg).
That's interesting, I hadn't been informed of that one. The most recent ones that I'd heard of are the metal-air ionic liquid batteries that are producing 900wh/kg with electrochemistry of up to 1.6kWh/kg, or Nickel Lithium which apparently is already producing 3x LiIon levels of energy density in working prototypes.reg_slr said:
The Wookie said:
While I agree it's not really practical at the moment, battery tech is progressing quickly and it will be practical soon enough.
OK lets set the marker at 2010 and see how long (guessing at least 5 years) it takes for 'battery tech' to be practical enough to even rival the most average IC engine?Thing is, unless a vehicle is already in serious development for production it wont be released for 5 or 6 years anyway. At the moment the battery tech isn't there yet, and no-ones going to build a car on the basis that battery tech will have progressed to accomodate the requirements of the project by the time it goes into production.
That is of course assuming there's a need for it. Once the economy recovers and everyone can afford petrol again all this tech might mysteriously fade away. It has happened before.
Edited by The Wookie on Wednesday 13th January 09:46
So actually, all theyve done is arrived at the show and gone
"s
t, everyone else has electric cars! What are we gonna do?"Then they've grabbed a Fiat 500, removed the engine, put a slightly different looking plastic cover under the bonnet to hide the big hole and given it a stupid name.
Its an electric car without motors or batteries?
So, its a car, then!?
And when we all, or even 10% of us, switch to electric cars - where will all the electricity come from and where will all the charging points be and/or go.
How would it work with the current council parking restrictions for office blocks (Don't current planning laws severely restrict parking these days) when half their staff have electric cars and no way to charge them?
How would it work with the current council parking restrictions for office blocks (Don't current planning laws severely restrict parking these days) when half their staff have electric cars and no way to charge them?
To be fair, that does look like a motor inverter sitting under the bonnet, and I've also seen more than one car that small with 4 seats and a battery large enough to propel it hidden under the boot floor and rear seats... it just doesn't tend to propel it very far!
ETA - Having had experience with Italian electrics I doubt I could ever learn to trust such a device though...
ETA - Having had experience with Italian electrics I doubt I could ever learn to trust such a device though...
Edited by The Wookie on Wednesday 13th January 10:08
The Wookie said:
If it can be charged in 45 minutes and actually realise that range with some to spare to reduce range anxiety, then I'll agree, but IMO until you can charge one at the side of the road in 5-10 minutes, or one charge can last as long as a human being can drive the thing without falling asleep then it isn't as practical as an IC engined car and therefore there will continue to be minority takeup
It will charge overnight so every morning as you wake up you have 300 miles of charge (at an average speed of 60mph 5 hours driving) That may not quite be long enough for you to be falling asleep at the wheel but it is long enough for someone to drive from breakfast to lunch (08:00 -> 13:00) without stopping or lunch to an evening meal (13:00 -> 18:00) or from an evening meal until 23:00 which is a pretty good time to stop driving.People have a tendancy to take breaks when driving somewhere on the motorway for meals.
example london -> edinbourgh 400 miles google maps says the trip takes 7.5 hours.
You set off at 08:00 you drive for 4 hours (220 miles) straight.
Stop in the services (preston) plug your car into their high power supply streach your legs go to the toilet and grab a burger from whatever outlet exists there. this takes about 15 minutes if you rush but you spend an extra 10 minutes over it and do it in your own time.
After 25 minutes your car has added an extra 150 miles to it's range giving it a total of 230 miles of range.
With edinbourgh just 185 miles away you have a nice margin for error. In an IC car the only difference is you might rush the lunch and spend 10 minutes queueing filling your car with and paying for petrol.
While you might say but i would have filled my car before the trip the chances are you will still spend that 10 minutes at some other point wether it's on your drive home on the day before or before you leave london.
If however you are a top gear presenter and are racing a train and a man on a spacehopper in a bugatti veyron you would spend the same time stationary because at 9mpg the 400 mile trip would empty your tank twice assuming you were driving at sensibly the whole way and whey you went to fill the tank you would be spending ages filling the tank with £120 in fuel every stop (well above the limit where you can pay at pump)
You're missing my point. There wont be majority take-up until there's no compromise at all. It has to be either much cheaper or better than IC in every way for it to be taken up en masse.
People wont plan their journeys around charging the car up for 45 minutes at lunch or anything like that, especially when it involves stretching the range of a vehicle that takes nearly an hour to charge. It has to be of equivalent convenience to Petrol.
Perhaps silly, but people aren't going to change their habits overnight, they'll want it to behave pretty much the same way as their current vehicle for it to avoid the 'hmmm I dunno, my car has a 400 mile range and I use that a few times a year, and it only takes 10 minutes to fill up'. I'm sure it'll be a great car and a big step forwards for EV's, but I'd be stunned if it's a big seller.
People wont plan their journeys around charging the car up for 45 minutes at lunch or anything like that, especially when it involves stretching the range of a vehicle that takes nearly an hour to charge. It has to be of equivalent convenience to Petrol.
Perhaps silly, but people aren't going to change their habits overnight, they'll want it to behave pretty much the same way as their current vehicle for it to avoid the 'hmmm I dunno, my car has a 400 mile range and I use that a few times a year, and it only takes 10 minutes to fill up'. I'm sure it'll be a great car and a big step forwards for EV's, but I'd be stunned if it's a big seller.
Edited by The Wookie on Wednesday 13th January 10:55
ctallchris said:
The Wookie said:
If it can be charged in 45 minutes and actually realise that range with some to spare to reduce range anxiety, then I'll agree, but IMO until you can charge one at the side of the road in 5-10 minutes, or one charge can last as long as a human being can drive the thing without falling asleep then it isn't as practical as an IC engined car and therefore there will continue to be minority takeup
Stop in the services (preston) plug your car into their high power supply streach your legs go to the toilet and grab a burger from whatever outlet exists there. this takes about 15 minutes if you rush but you spend an extra 10 minutes over it and do it in your own time. leon9191 said:
ctallchris said:
The Wookie said:
If it can be charged in 45 minutes and actually realise that range with some to spare to reduce range anxiety, then I'll agree, but IMO until you can charge one at the side of the road in 5-10 minutes, or one charge can last as long as a human being can drive the thing without falling asleep then it isn't as practical as an IC engined car and therefore there will continue to be minority takeup
Stop in the services (preston) plug your car into their high power supply streach your legs go to the toilet and grab a burger from whatever outlet exists there. this takes about 15 minutes if you rush but you spend an extra 10 minutes over it and do it in your own time. I'm not saying people won't screw it up but then some petrol stations screw up their payment system / having enough fuel / being open at hours you need to use them at least the power sockets will be open 24/7
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