My search for a C4S...
Discussion
Hi all,
I though it might be useful to others in future if I document my search and though processes as I look for my dream C4S....
Before I start, I should state that normally I get over excited when looking for a nw car and normally go for the first decent one I see. Because of the known issues with 996 and the importance of fully documented histories with evidence of work done in the past, I am trying to resist this temptation - but believe me, it very hard !
Well, it all started here, being tempted by sub £20k 996s:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
which then moved onto the C4S's here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
My criteria is a C4S
- on an 03 or 53 plate
- with 3 owners or less
- Not blue
- FPSH (or respected independnet) with supporting docs
- Recent brake pad/disc change, recent RMS fix, recent clutch (if manual) at minimum.
- Decent warranty would be nice but not essential
- Must have options are: Xenon lights, switchable PSE and Pask Assist.
My search started when I went to see a 70k miler C4S on an 03 plate up at £23k from a Prestige independent car dealer but the car looked a little tired and there was no supporting paperwork to it. I then decided that I should spend more to get a lower mileage and better condition car.
Yesterday I went to see these two C4S:
- Specialist 1: £28k 53 plate Tip in silver/black leather with 5 owners and 48k miles with FPSH
Looked in good condition. Spoke to the prev. owner as well. He had loads of work done incl. brakes/discs, tyres, rads, front suspension etc. all in, a well looked after example.
I liked it but decided against it as 5 owners combined with 48k is too much when you consider resale in a couple of years, despite it being 2k less than lower mileage, lower owner examples.
- Specialist 2: £30k 03 plate Manual in Black.Black leather with 3 owners and 35k miles with PSH + 1 independent
Again, looked in good condition but driver seat leather was a creased on the side nearer the door and had a few stone chips on rear wings - black really shows these up.
Also, the dealer keeps moving the goalposts:
- Advertised as a 53 when it was an 03 when I got there;
- Advertised at £30k but told it was wrong and price is £31.5k when I got there;
- Told me it would get a Porsche Hatfield inspection and major service and then, when I got there, told I would have to pay for it !!
I think I will give this one a miss as well as I don't trust the dealer, who knows what else I might find out.
Saying that, I have found an ad for a 2004/53 1 owner manual car in Seal Grey/Black leather with 25k miles and FPSH. The only issue is that it doesn't have the switchable sports exhaust which is on my requirements list
The search continues.....
I though it might be useful to others in future if I document my search and though processes as I look for my dream C4S....
Before I start, I should state that normally I get over excited when looking for a nw car and normally go for the first decent one I see. Because of the known issues with 996 and the importance of fully documented histories with evidence of work done in the past, I am trying to resist this temptation - but believe me, it very hard !
Well, it all started here, being tempted by sub £20k 996s:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
which then moved onto the C4S's here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
My criteria is a C4S
- on an 03 or 53 plate
- with 3 owners or less
- Not blue
- FPSH (or respected independnet) with supporting docs
- Recent brake pad/disc change, recent RMS fix, recent clutch (if manual) at minimum.
- Decent warranty would be nice but not essential
- Must have options are: Xenon lights, switchable PSE and Pask Assist.
My search started when I went to see a 70k miler C4S on an 03 plate up at £23k from a Prestige independent car dealer but the car looked a little tired and there was no supporting paperwork to it. I then decided that I should spend more to get a lower mileage and better condition car.
Yesterday I went to see these two C4S:
- Specialist 1: £28k 53 plate Tip in silver/black leather with 5 owners and 48k miles with FPSH
Looked in good condition. Spoke to the prev. owner as well. He had loads of work done incl. brakes/discs, tyres, rads, front suspension etc. all in, a well looked after example.
I liked it but decided against it as 5 owners combined with 48k is too much when you consider resale in a couple of years, despite it being 2k less than lower mileage, lower owner examples.
- Specialist 2: £30k 03 plate Manual in Black.Black leather with 3 owners and 35k miles with PSH + 1 independent
Again, looked in good condition but driver seat leather was a creased on the side nearer the door and had a few stone chips on rear wings - black really shows these up.
Also, the dealer keeps moving the goalposts:
- Advertised as a 53 when it was an 03 when I got there;
- Advertised at £30k but told it was wrong and price is £31.5k when I got there;
- Told me it would get a Porsche Hatfield inspection and major service and then, when I got there, told I would have to pay for it !!
I think I will give this one a miss as well as I don't trust the dealer, who knows what else I might find out.
Saying that, I have found an ad for a 2004/53 1 owner manual car in Seal Grey/Black leather with 25k miles and FPSH. The only issue is that it doesn't have the switchable sports exhaust which is on my requirements list
The search continues.....
Edited by Spy on Friday 19th February 10:47
Edited by Spy on Friday 19th February 10:47
Re the Portiacraft car.
If the last owner spent plenty of money on it,that would be in my mind the danger owner so to speak. So if he was good thats great.
I should think the ones before him did too, as they will have had it during warranty, then the ones after the warranty ran out will still have paid plenty of money for the car so had a vested interest in keeping it right. Its not like a £1500 7 series fell into the wrong hands and the owner unable to afford to look after it.
I hope that makes sense, anyway just my view on a 7 year old car with a few owners, if the rest of the car was what you wanted, i wouldnt get hung up on the owners too much.
If the last owner spent plenty of money on it,that would be in my mind the danger owner so to speak. So if he was good thats great.
I should think the ones before him did too, as they will have had it during warranty, then the ones after the warranty ran out will still have paid plenty of money for the car so had a vested interest in keeping it right. Its not like a £1500 7 series fell into the wrong hands and the owner unable to afford to look after it.
I hope that makes sense, anyway just my view on a 7 year old car with a few owners, if the rest of the car was what you wanted, i wouldnt get hung up on the owners too much.
Spy said:
The only issue is that it doesn't have the switchable sports exhaust which is on my requirements list
The search continues.....
Sounds like a nice spec'd car. Why not negotiate on price and get an OPC to do a supply & fit deal on the PSE. The search continues.....
Edited by Spy on Friday 19th February 10:47
Edited by Spy on Friday 19th February 10:47
I seem to recall that certain OPC's were offering very attractive prices on the 996 PSE.
C.
Have you got too many restricting factors?
The Sports exhaust can be retro-fitted. Making it switchable is more complicated, but do-able, but to be fair, you will never want to switch it off, so a bit of a waste. Its not boomy, or intrusive.
Why o3-53 plate onwards. What is wrong with 02, 52? Are you looking at resale? if you pay less now, then its OK to sell for less.
Xenons can be retrofitted cheaply. I remember when looking for mine that they were quite a rare option, and those cars tended to come with other extra's, so commanded a premium. You won't have the wash and level facility though, so may become a legal issue. As an aside, the standard lights are OK.
Park assist? Really? I feel it spoils the lines of the bumper, and they really aren't that difficult to gauge. Again, retrofitment is cheap and easy.
The 25k one you mentioned at the end sounds perfect!
The Sports exhaust can be retro-fitted. Making it switchable is more complicated, but do-able, but to be fair, you will never want to switch it off, so a bit of a waste. Its not boomy, or intrusive.
Why o3-53 plate onwards. What is wrong with 02, 52? Are you looking at resale? if you pay less now, then its OK to sell for less.
Xenons can be retrofitted cheaply. I remember when looking for mine that they were quite a rare option, and those cars tended to come with other extra's, so commanded a premium. You won't have the wash and level facility though, so may become a legal issue. As an aside, the standard lights are OK.
Park assist? Really? I feel it spoils the lines of the bumper, and they really aren't that difficult to gauge. Again, retrofitment is cheap and easy.
The 25k one you mentioned at the end sounds perfect!
Our very own Henry has what looks like a nice clean low mileage example. Get the PSE retro-fitted if you feel the need - I have it and wouldnt care less if the car had it or not to be honest. No xenons or park assist(cars tiny so parking is not an issue) but very low mileage.
http://www.911virgin.com/porscheforsale/53/996C4ST...
http://www.911virgin.com/porscheforsale/53/996C4ST...
Edited by Wanta996Gotta on Friday 19th February 11:31
Edited by Wanta996Gotta on Friday 19th February 11:43
I agree. Why 03/53? Is it not in the 04 model year that there were some significant improvements?
On the PSE front, I also agree with the last post. First I don't expect you will ever want to switch it off, even if you do you can get it fitted by an official dealer, I think it is £1300-1500. However, you might be even better getting some other high quality screamer with an even better sound output.
All this goes to reinforce what I have believed for a long time, ie the 996C4S is possibly the best looking and most desirable (in the general market) 911 of the lot.
On the PSE front, I also agree with the last post. First I don't expect you will ever want to switch it off, even if you do you can get it fitted by an official dealer, I think it is £1300-1500. However, you might be even better getting some other high quality screamer with an even better sound output.
All this goes to reinforce what I have believed for a long time, ie the 996C4S is possibly the best looking and most desirable (in the general market) 911 of the lot.
Badjwa said:
Number of owners does not make a difference.
Of course it does. I know that i and many others would choose a car with less owners if both cars were at the same price. We have no idea what 5 different owners ideas of maintenence,servicing,track days and hooning are. Mentioned this before - Friend bought a Gallardo with 16k miles from Lambo Birmingham. It had 5 previous owners BUT the interiors wear and tear told you that 1 of these 5 had obvioulsy clocked the car. The amount of Porsches especially the older ones with ridiculously low mileages makes me question there authenticity.
Wanta996Gotta said:
Badjwa said:
Number of owners does not make a difference.
Of course it does. I know that i and many others would choose a car with less owners if both cars were at the same price. We have no idea what 5 different owners ideas of maintenence,servicing,track days and hooning are. Mentioned this before - Friend bought a Gallardo with 16k miles from Lambo Birmingham. It had 5 previous owners BUT the interiors wear and tear told you that 1 of these 5 had obvioulsy clocked the car. The amount of Porsches especially the older ones with ridiculously low mileages makes me question there authenticity.
On older cars, people buy cars, and straight away tend to go about improving bits, so more owners might be a bonus, but on newish cars, its scarey, unless you can trace the reason why. EG father passed onto son, Ex demo/company car etc.
Wanta996Gotta said:
Badjwa said:
Number of owners does not make a difference.
Of course it does. I know that i and many others would choose a car with less owners if both cars were at the same price.however if I found the perfect spec/colour car other than high owners I would take this over a 1 owner car in a less than ideal colour/spec and certainly if it had a tip
Thanks for the comments guys.
In response here are some of my thought processes...
- Owners: I personally don't have a hang-up aboutit if the condition of the car is right. My worry is wehen i come to sell it on in a couple of years. It will have 6 owners and I am sure it will restrict the number of buyers it will appeal to.
- PSE: I realise that it can be retro-fitted (I elieve recent prices have been in the region of £1,700) but I am pushing my budget and really need to have it included now. Once I buy the car, it won't get done, any spare money will go on the upkeek of the car. As regards having it or not, I have now seen a few car with it and it sounds great, a definite must have for me
- Xenons: I like the visibility of Xenons. I have had them on my last two cars and appreciate the strength of the light.
- Park Assist: One of those things that you don't think you need (heck, I have been driving for 20 odd years without them) but once you have them, can't go back. Again, my last two cars have had them and I find them supe useful in getting into tight spaces.
- Year: In reality, I would look at a 52 if it met my criteria.
I will be coming to the ace Cafe meet on Monday (work allowing) so hope to see a few cars and get a bit more advice.
In response here are some of my thought processes...
- Owners: I personally don't have a hang-up aboutit if the condition of the car is right. My worry is wehen i come to sell it on in a couple of years. It will have 6 owners and I am sure it will restrict the number of buyers it will appeal to.
- PSE: I realise that it can be retro-fitted (I elieve recent prices have been in the region of £1,700) but I am pushing my budget and really need to have it included now. Once I buy the car, it won't get done, any spare money will go on the upkeek of the car. As regards having it or not, I have now seen a few car with it and it sounds great, a definite must have for me
- Xenons: I like the visibility of Xenons. I have had them on my last two cars and appreciate the strength of the light.
- Park Assist: One of those things that you don't think you need (heck, I have been driving for 20 odd years without them) but once you have them, can't go back. Again, my last two cars have had them and I find them supe useful in getting into tight spaces.
- Year: In reality, I would look at a 52 if it met my criteria.
I will be coming to the ace Cafe meet on Monday (work allowing) so hope to see a few cars and get a bit more advice.
OP - thanks for the update. Interesting to follow your quest (and good for you too if you ever come to sell the car - you can use this thread to back up the oft-used sales phrase "I looked at XX examples before I found this minter")
Wanta996Gotta said:
Mentioned this before - Friend bought a Gallardo with 16k miles from Lambo Birmingham. It had 5 previous owners BUT the interiors wear and tear told you that 1 of these 5 had obvioulsy clocked the car. The amount of Porsches especially the older ones with ridiculously low mileages makes me question there authenticity.
Was your friend aware of the clocking before buying (and got a big chunk of ££'s off) or was he stung?monthefish said:
OP - thanks for the update. Interesting to follow your quest (and good for you too if you ever come to sell the car - you can use this thread to back up the oft-used sales phrase "I looked at XX examples before I found this minter")
It could'nt be proved that it was clocked and Lambo Birmingham are not exactly going to say it was. To Op, you will find that there are not many C4S's to your spec to be honest. Mine just so happens to have the exact spec your after but it took me almost 5 months to find it and i paid OPC-like prices for mine at the time. Wanta996Gotta said:
Mentioned this before - Friend bought a Gallardo with 16k miles from Lambo Birmingham. It had 5 previous owners BUT the interiors wear and tear told you that 1 of these 5 had obvioulsy clocked the car. The amount of Porsches especially the older ones with ridiculously low mileages makes me question there authenticity.
Was your friend aware of the clocking before buying (and got a big chunk of ££'s off) or was he stung?P.S. I dont want to open another can of worms but keep your eyes peeled for a 996 Turbo as there is not much of a price difference. What i found after approx 3 weeks ownership was the car was too smooth in its delievery and felt......................slow. You only realise its brilliance over 100mph.
Edited by Wanta996Gotta on Friday 19th February 13:45
Tino said:
Spy said:
Also, as regards transmission, I am open minded on Tip or manual, neither is a deal breaker for me at the moment.
You might struggle to sell a tip more than a multi owner car, but both will have restrictions.Funny re the tip comments as I and a few friends who own them would only ever buy tips but then I would not tell everyone that manuals are s
te and keep away from them I really do not think it will be harder to sell a tip as opposed to a manual but it makes me laugh on this forum that those who do not like them for whatever reason make them sound like the kiss of death instead of just accepting that it is probably a 50/50 split in the for and against and just because it is not for them then it is not for anyone.
I must say owners have never really bothered me as I have sold cars 6 months after buying them for no other reason than I got bored or saw something else I liked. Condition and history are more important to me.
te and keep away from them I really do not think it will be harder to sell a tip as opposed to a manual but it makes me laugh on this forum that those who do not like them for whatever reason make them sound like the kiss of death instead of just accepting that it is probably a 50/50 split in the for and against and just because it is not for them then it is not for anyone.I must say owners have never really bothered me as I have sold cars 6 months after buying them for no other reason than I got bored or saw something else I liked. Condition and history are more important to me.
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