glow plug errors in vagcom Audi A4 B7 2.0 TDI - one for Tame

[cindacone]

Hi all
I get the following errors but I have had new glow plugs and a new glow plug relay installed. Any suggestions please ? It usually appears every 2 days after being reset and causes an emissions light to trip on. Caused by starting up..
Thanks in advance

Address 01: Engine Labels: 03G-906-016-BLB.lbl
Part No SW: 03G 906 016 JD HW: 028 101 265 4
Component: R4 2,0L EDC 000SG 8245
Revision: --H02--- Serial number:
Coding: 0000072
Shop #: WSC 06325 000 00000

4 Faults Found:
005658 - Glowplug for Cylinder 1 (Q10): Open Circuit
P161A - 000 - -
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01110000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 139807 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 0 /min
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Voltage: 12.24 V
Bin. Bits: 11000100
Temperature: -0.9°C
Bin. Bits: 00110000

005659 - Glowplug for Cylinder 2 (Q11): Open Circuit
P161B - 000 - -
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01110000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 139807 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 0 /min
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Voltage: 12.24 V
Bin. Bits: 11000100
Temperature: -0.9°C
Bin. Bits: 00110000

005660 - Glowplug for Cylinder 3 (Q12): Open Circuit
P161C - 000 - -
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01110000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 139807 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 0 /min
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Voltage: 12.24 V
Bin. Bits: 11000100
Temperature: -0.9°C
Bin. Bits: 00110000

005661 - Glowplug for Cylinder 4 (Q13): Open Circuit
P161D - 000 - -
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01110000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 139807 km
Time Indication: 0

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 0 /min
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Voltage: 12.24 V
Bin. Bits: 11000100
Temperature: -0.9°C
Bin. Bits: 00110000

[Tame Technician]

oops I think I was meant to find the location of the glow plug relay for you, sry very busy at work never got round to looking it up.

But you've had it replaced now, did you do it? if not who, are you "SURE" they changed the right thing. Is it your VAGCOM??


GLOW PLUG DIAG

(1) First things first, are the glow plugs actually plugged in, whip the cam cover off and have a look (8 or 10 T30 screws and the top cambelt cover off, 2 mins max).

(2) Are the glow plugs ok, check there resistance from the tip of the glow plug to the engine block or another good engine earth, should be 1 ohm. (its highly unlikely you got 4 duff ones from the box, but we do see one or two faulty ones from new every year or so)

(3)Asuming they are plugged in and ok, while you have the cam cover off, you can check continuety of the internal harness. Between the pins on the round connector at the back of the head and the connections for each glow plug. First use a multi meter set to continuety and make sure it bleeps, then to make sure the wires can carry some current used a test lamp connected to the vehicle battery. This will prove/disprove the harness is ok (still never changed one for a glow plug fault yet)

(4) If thats all ok then its a bit more involved, you will really need a wiring diagram and have to test the pins at the glow plug relay making sure you have the correct powers and grounds to start with and then checking that the engine ECU is turning the relay on. If anything is missing, power ground signal from ECU this needs to be identified and the cause located. This bit is a bit technical but any good mechanic should be able to do it.


Glow plugs are not complicated at all, and testing this circuit shouldnt be a problem, our 3rd year apprentis did one the other day in a matter of minutes. But because the 2.0TDI engine has the glow plugs under the cam cover to check the connections you will need the cam cover off, and the round connector at the back of the head is both hard to undo and difficult to access because of space.


Time saving technical tip, if you have done something and need to retest to see if its fixed it, dont wait for 2 days to see if its fix, With VAGCOM you should be able to final control (make the VAGCOM turn the glow plugs on)if they dont work they will log the fault code straigh away you dont have to wait for a number of cold starts. If you cant get VAGCOM to do this, unpluging the coolant temp sensor will make the glow plugs come on as soon as the ignition is switch on, But obviously it will log a code for coolant temp sensor open circuit which will need clearing down.

[cindacone]

Excellent response as usual - Thanks TT !
It was defo the relay for the glowplugs that was changed - I bought it from Audi and i was there when he did it. also flagged errors on his vagcom.
If you have never changed a loom on a a4 B7 - then I suppose it could be loose connections to the plugs. Because they were supposedly all changed (cost me over £200) I suppose they could have damaged the connections. I will attempt on your suggestions asap. And good call on the VAGCOM for testing the plugs.
Thanks again TT

[cindacone]

hi TT
all tests ran for the glow plugs - turns out all 4 are faulty. (replaced apparently in Nov 2009)
They are not the NGK plugs which i believe my engine (BRE) should have, but looks like the garage replaced with beru plugs. would this cause them to fail after only 2 months of use? could it have damaged my engine not having the ngk plugs installed?

tests ran

Fault codes stored
Glow plugs 1,2,3,4 open circuit


Tested vehicle
Checked operation of glow plug relay via cfd

voltage supply and earth ok, tested engine earth ok
switched earth ok for operation of j179
disconnected cylinder head loom and tested wiring for short to earth/positive ok
tested continuity, each glow plug circuit 0.030 ohms and within spec
tested cylinder head loom and again no problems
Removed each glow plug and tested resistance and found all 4 open circuit
Disconnected engine temp sender to simulate -5 C and connected voltmeter to glow plugs.
Each glow plug received 5 volts to conclude the circuit is fine

All four glow plugs show damage to the elements

[Tame Technician]

The tests you have done there are absolutely spot on and the text book way to test the circuit fully, well done. If only the plugs were easily accessable like on the 1.9TDI, you coulkd just check the resistance of the plugs first.

IF the glow plugs are open circuit, then they are faulty. As you have found. If i havnt saod before a good plug should be 1 - 1.25 ohms

To be perfectly honest I've just fitted what the parts depatment has given me when I've done them, but I thought they were either Bosch or Beru and interchangable so it didnt really matter, dont recall ever seeing NGK's but that doesnt mean your not right about them, like I said I fitted what i was given.

Perhaps they were not the right ones for the vehicle, maybe for a 1.9 TDI or even somthing else. They all look very similar, would be easy to mix then up, or be unlucky and get a set boxed wrong or somthing. I can see any other reason that they would fail so soon. If you have any faith left in them, you could go back to who fitted them and demand a new set under parts waranty. Alternativly get a set of genuin ones from your local dealer/TPS.

You say they failed 2 months after fitting, but IIRC you returned to the fitters only a week later and they tried to sell you the harness (without checking the glow plugs they had just fitted)

Important side note:- old fationed glow plugs could be bench tested by connecting straight to a battery and making sure they glow. You cant do that with glow plugs today, they are pulsed on and off by the ECU, giving them a constant 12v feed will kill them straight away. Maybe at some point, even on fitting the first time, the plugs were tested in this way and thats what killed them.

[cindacone]

Thanks TT - I am going to demand my money back to be honest - lost trust in them like you said. If you could check if using non ceramic GP's in an 06 audi 2.0 TDI BRE engine could have caused lasting damage i would appreciate it.

Now where to start on my complaints e mail to the garage...............

[Raven Flyer]

Was the mileage in the Vagcom files the mileage at test or at the time of the failure?

All 4 seems to have failed at the same time if it is the latter.

[cindacone]

It was the mileage at the test date - I can reset it in vagcom, and then drive a day, and the CEL will appear again with the error. It turns out the garage installed Beru glow plugs, when apparently my B7 BRE engine should only ever have NGK ceramic plugs installed. guess i will be going back there soon for a refund..

[Raven Flyer]

I have been told my 55 plate 2.7 TDi is Beru glow plugs. About £15 each.

How hard are they to change on an A6 2.7 TDi?

Edited by Raven Flyer on Tuesday 9th March 10:34

[Tame Technician]

cindacone said:

It was the mileage at the test date - I can reset it in vagcom, and then drive a day, and the CEL will appear again with the error. It turns out the garage installed Beru glow plugs, when apparently my B7 BRE engine should only ever have NGK ceramic plugs installed. guess i will be going back there soon for a refund..

I checked the beru/ bosch ones if was thinking of were for the 1.9TDI.

the official word on the 2.0TDI is exactly as you had it



Different types of glow plugs

There are different types of glow plugs fitted in the 4-cylinder 2.0 ltr. 4-valve TDI engine in Audi A4 vehicles:

Engine code letters BLB, BNA

These engines are fitted exclusively with metal glow plugs.


Engine code letters BRD, BRE, BRF, BVA, BVF, BVG

These engines are fitted exclusively with NGK ceramic glow plugs, which are colour-coded with a “white, or possibly silver-coloured” seal.

[Tame Technician]

Raven Flyer said:

I have been told my 55 plate 2.7 TDi is Beru glow plugs. About £15 each.

How hard are they to change on an A6 2.7 TDi?

Edited by Raven Flyer on Tuesday 9th March 10:34

Dead easy, as long as they dont shear off in the head, it can happen. If that happens the head need to come off and they need removing by an engineer, never try to extract a broken one from above or bits will fall inside and then you risk an engine.

To change the glow plugs just pull off the wire and a 10mm socket straigh on them.

[Raven Flyer]

Thanks. I have a mate who is a Rangey tech, who owes me a favour.

[cindacone]

thank TT.
What would be the potential issue of using Beru metal plugs and not the NGK ceramics? or do Beru actually do a ceramic version of their plug? I need some ammunition for when i write to the garage. I presume NGK ones would last more than 4 months for starters http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/imgs/4.gif but could it have damaged my engine or made it less performant or economical etc?
Cheers!

[Tame Technician]

cindacone said:

thank TT.
What would be the potential issue of using Beru metal plugs and not the NGK ceramics? or do Beru actually do a ceramic version of their plug? I need some ammunition for when i write to the garage. I presume NGK ones would last more than 4 months for starters http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/imgs/4.gif but could it have damaged my engine or made it less performant or economical etc?
Cheers!

Audi obviously choose to use those plugs for a reason (most likely emmisions), and although I've never tried personally I dont think it would make any difference, I think if the metal plugs from another Audi 2.0TDI engine were fitted you wouldnt know. Its running now without any at all working, can you tell?
Definatly couldnt damage the engine, cant see that it would change ecconomy. Maybe slight change in emmisions and cold starting (thats what the plugs are for)

I looked on euro car parts website and they list metal ones for BRE engines. http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Audi_A6_2.0_2006...


But the fact is they failed almost straigh away. Looking through your origional posts, at first you had one plug faulty but they advised to replace all of them while the cam cover was off, they replaced all 4, then you had 4 plugs faulty. Means they either fitted faulty plugs or they failed straight after fitement. I have to wonder IF they bench tested them, and fried them or if there not actually for a 2.0TDI at all.

Then they suggested you needed a harness without doing any of the correct tests, which now they have been done show the harness is fine and the plugs are faulty. I remember reading your post and thinking they sounded like they didnt know what they were talking about.

[Phil3000]

I found this thread interesting as I'm investigating my own issue. I have an A4 2.0TDi, BRE engine, with ceramic glow plugs. I had the engine management light come on recently, read the code and it said No.4 glow plug open circuit.
I've read the process described in this forum for replacing the glow plug, but I have a few questions. I followed the diagnostic process that Tame Techician kindly posted and established that the rearmost glow plug has a resistance of 140 ohms instead of the 1 ohm of a working glow plug, so I am confident that it really is the glow plug that has failed rather than anything else.
As a DIY enthusiast rather than workshop pro, I don't have access to the tool to burn the plug clean prior to removal. Is it completely necessary? Does it even work, given the high resistance of the failed plug?
Is there anything else that I should know, prior to deciding whether to do the job myself or not?

[jith]

Dear god! What a ridiculous amount of effort and inconvenience for what is a relatively minor fault!!

This is why we have stopped working on diesels. I just don't have time for this sort of nonsense; all of it stemming from bad design.

Well done OP and TT. Top marks for your perseverance!

J

[c4lho888]

hi there people is it possible for all four glow plugs to go i have just bought this car and have just changed the injecctor loom and the 4 glow plugs are still saying faulty