A3 3.2 - Dreaded Cam Chain Stretch
Discussion
I've been informed by the local Audi dealer that my self-diagnosed, (VCDS), problem with my A3 is the cam chain stretching. Alledgedly, this fault is known to VAG as the VW sister car, the R32, suffers from pretty much the same problem and there are quite a few of us out there with this problem. The cam chain is a life of the car item but seeing as it's only done 80k, that's not what I'd call life of the car.
The bill for changing a cam belt on the Audi S3 is £349.00
The bill for changing the cam chain on my 3.2 is .....£4,089.73
I need some help from PHs to see if anyone has managed to get Audi to do something about this or if they have been able to get a better price from a good independent. I'm talking to Audi about this but I'm not holding out much hope.
Any help on either would be gratefully recieved.
It's a late 2004 Audi A3 3.2 S-Line Quattro with DSG
The bill for changing a cam belt on the Audi S3 is £349.00
The bill for changing the cam chain on my 3.2 is .....£4,089.73
I need some help from PHs to see if anyone has managed to get Audi to do something about this or if they have been able to get a better price from a good independent. I'm talking to Audi about this but I'm not holding out much hope.
Any help on either would be gratefully recieved.
It's a late 2004 Audi A3 3.2 S-Line Quattro with DSG
Edited by Fireblade69 on Monday 3rd May 00:04
In the 5 years or so I've been on Audi's I've only reported one 3.2 needing new chains. But I have read that it can happen on any of the VR6 engines.
I've not done the job but have read the instructions and price one up, I believe its gearbox out and then the rear engine covers and rocker cover including inlet manifold off for access. Thats about 10hours before you replace anything.
As you are replacing the chains, its a very good idea to renew all the guides and slippers too, but not everyone will quite for that, can add as much as an extra £400-£500, but you wouldnt want to have to pay the stript down labour again. On manual cars it might be a good time to fit a new clutch also while the box is out. All this adds to the bill, but makes sence if your paying for the labour anyway.
I've not done the job but have read the instructions and price one up, I believe its gearbox out and then the rear engine covers and rocker cover including inlet manifold off for access. Thats about 10hours before you replace anything.
As you are replacing the chains, its a very good idea to renew all the guides and slippers too, but not everyone will quite for that, can add as much as an extra £400-£500, but you wouldnt want to have to pay the stript down labour again. On manual cars it might be a good time to fit a new clutch also while the box is out. All this adds to the bill, but makes sence if your paying for the labour anyway.
Thanks for the help guys, always appreciated.
I might rule Cambridge and Swindon out as they are a bit far out of the way. In in Brighton and work in Hemel Hempstead so either of them or the surrounding areas would be good.
I've read a few forums and they so come up with the problem on several R32s and a couple of A3s but that was after I entered some quite specific search terms including the VCDS codes so I kind of expected to come up with a few. Even so...4 bags for a cam chain change!
For the record, the Audi Dealer said it would be £900+VAT for the parts which should include the guides etc as it would be stupid to change the chain and not do that at the same time. He quoted the book for labour which runs at 29.3 hours total and that is £88.11+VAT for labour. On the plus side, they would give it a two year guarantee but if it's like for like, what happens if it goes again after 2 1/2 years?
If I don't get the work done then legally I have to mention it if I sell it, (a grey area but I have been reliably informed that this is the case even for a private sellers - sold as seen is not quite good enough to stop me getting sued. Besides, the MIL is on and the fault is registered with Audi now), so that means:
- Selling it very, very cheap if at all.
- Part it out but I don't have the room or the time to do this.
- Get it fixed by Audi and sell it before the 2 year guarantee runs out.
- Get it fixed by an independent knowing that they can fold in this economic climate and leave me with no guarantee at all.
- Fix it myself. (I rebuilt my Fireblade engine when that imploded last year. Never done a car though).
Whichever route I go, it'll end up costing me a shed load unless Audi do the decent thing and stump up some goodwill.
Another question: Am I being unreasonable to expect a car to do more than 80k before suffering a major issue? I had a MK3 Golf that done the best part of 200k without any problems and a MK4 GTI Turbo that had over 130k without problems so I don't think so. In this throwaway world, am I expecting to much?
Maybe Audi aren't as quality as their reputation suggests. Japanese next maybe. (Not Toyota though
)
Oh, and it's a DSG box and again, that is meant to be lifetime. (Wet multi-plate like a motorbike, also twin clutch so it is designed to last a while. Given the chain problem I'm taking this with a pinch of salt as well).
I might rule Cambridge and Swindon out as they are a bit far out of the way. In in Brighton and work in Hemel Hempstead so either of them or the surrounding areas would be good.
I've read a few forums and they so come up with the problem on several R32s and a couple of A3s but that was after I entered some quite specific search terms including the VCDS codes so I kind of expected to come up with a few. Even so...4 bags for a cam chain change!
For the record, the Audi Dealer said it would be £900+VAT for the parts which should include the guides etc as it would be stupid to change the chain and not do that at the same time. He quoted the book for labour which runs at 29.3 hours total and that is £88.11+VAT for labour. On the plus side, they would give it a two year guarantee but if it's like for like, what happens if it goes again after 2 1/2 years?
If I don't get the work done then legally I have to mention it if I sell it, (a grey area but I have been reliably informed that this is the case even for a private sellers - sold as seen is not quite good enough to stop me getting sued. Besides, the MIL is on and the fault is registered with Audi now), so that means:
- Selling it very, very cheap if at all.
- Part it out but I don't have the room or the time to do this.
- Get it fixed by Audi and sell it before the 2 year guarantee runs out.
- Get it fixed by an independent knowing that they can fold in this economic climate and leave me with no guarantee at all.
- Fix it myself. (I rebuilt my Fireblade engine when that imploded last year. Never done a car though).
Whichever route I go, it'll end up costing me a shed load unless Audi do the decent thing and stump up some goodwill.
Another question: Am I being unreasonable to expect a car to do more than 80k before suffering a major issue? I had a MK3 Golf that done the best part of 200k without any problems and a MK4 GTI Turbo that had over 130k without problems so I don't think so. In this throwaway world, am I expecting to much?
Maybe Audi aren't as quality as their reputation suggests. Japanese next maybe. (Not Toyota though
)Oh, and it's a DSG box and again, that is meant to be lifetime. (Wet multi-plate like a motorbike, also twin clutch so it is designed to last a while. Given the chain problem I'm taking this with a pinch of salt as well).
Edited by Fireblade69 on Monday 3rd May 21:36
Fireblade69 said:
Thanks for the help guys, always appreciated.
I might rule Cambridge and Swindon out as they are a bit far out of the way. I live in Brighton and work in Hemel Hempstead so either of them or the surrounding areas would be good.
I've read a few forums and they so come up with the problem on several R32s and a couple of A3s but that was after I entered some quite specific search terms including the VCDS codes so I kind of expected to come up with a few. Even so...4 bags for a cam chain change!
For the record, the Audi Dealer said it would be £900+VAT for the parts which should include the guides etc as it would be stupid to change the chain and not do that at the same time. He quoted the book for labour which runs at 29.3 hours total and that is £88.11+VAT for labour. On the plus side, they would give it a two year guarantee but if it's like for like, what happens if it goes again after 2 1/2 years?
If I don't get the work done then legally I have to mention it if I sell it, (a grey area but I have been reliably informed that this is the case even for a private sellers - sold as seen is not quite good enough to stop me getting sued. Besides, the MIL is on and the fault is registered with Audi now), so that means:
- Selling it very, very cheap if at all.
- Part it out but I don't have the room or the time to do this.
- Get it fixed by Audi and sell it before the 2 year guarantee runs out.
- Get it fixed by an independent knowing that they can fold in this economic climate and leave me with no guarantee at all.
- Fix it myself. (I rebuilt my Fireblade engine when that imploded last year. Never done a car though).
Whichever route I go, it'll end up costing me a shed load unless Audi do the decent thing and stump up some goodwill.
Another question: Am I being unreasonable to expect a car to do more than 80k before suffering a major issue? I had a MK3 Golf that done the best part of 200k without any problems and a MK4 GTI Turbo that had over 130k without problems so I don't think so. In this throwaway world, am I expecting to much?
Maybe Audi aren't as quality as their reputation suggests. Japanese next maybe. (Not Toyota though)
Oh, and it's a DSG box and again, that is meant to be lifetime. (Wet multi-plate like a motorbike, also twin clutch so it is designed to last a while. Given the chain problem I'm taking this with a pinch of salt as well).
I might rule Cambridge and Swindon out as they are a bit far out of the way. I live in Brighton and work in Hemel Hempstead so either of them or the surrounding areas would be good.
I've read a few forums and they so come up with the problem on several R32s and a couple of A3s but that was after I entered some quite specific search terms including the VCDS codes so I kind of expected to come up with a few. Even so...4 bags for a cam chain change!
For the record, the Audi Dealer said it would be £900+VAT for the parts which should include the guides etc as it would be stupid to change the chain and not do that at the same time. He quoted the book for labour which runs at 29.3 hours total and that is £88.11+VAT for labour. On the plus side, they would give it a two year guarantee but if it's like for like, what happens if it goes again after 2 1/2 years?
If I don't get the work done then legally I have to mention it if I sell it, (a grey area but I have been reliably informed that this is the case even for a private sellers - sold as seen is not quite good enough to stop me getting sued. Besides, the MIL is on and the fault is registered with Audi now), so that means:
- Selling it very, very cheap if at all.
- Part it out but I don't have the room or the time to do this.
- Get it fixed by Audi and sell it before the 2 year guarantee runs out.
- Get it fixed by an independent knowing that they can fold in this economic climate and leave me with no guarantee at all.
- Fix it myself. (I rebuilt my Fireblade engine when that imploded last year. Never done a car though).
Whichever route I go, it'll end up costing me a shed load unless Audi do the decent thing and stump up some goodwill.
Another question: Am I being unreasonable to expect a car to do more than 80k before suffering a major issue? I had a MK3 Golf that done the best part of 200k without any problems and a MK4 GTI Turbo that had over 130k without problems so I don't think so. In this throwaway world, am I expecting to much?
Maybe Audi aren't as quality as their reputation suggests. Japanese next maybe. (Not Toyota though
)Oh, and it's a DSG box and again, that is meant to be lifetime. (Wet multi-plate like a motorbike, also twin clutch so it is designed to last a while. Given the chain problem I'm taking this with a pinch of salt as well).
Edited by Fireblade69 on Monday 3rd May 21:36
Not wanting to add to the misery, but before you part with four big ones, and thinking about posible other future costly repairs , you might want to Google DSG mechatronics unit.
I'd consider taking the MIL bulb out and send it to action. OR better still clear the codes when you drop the car off, that way will do its bulb self test ok, takes a few drives normally before the light comes back on. Not sure of the legal implication, but I would be happy selling it normally like that, but at a car auction anything goes.
I'd consider taking the MIL bulb out and send it to action. OR better still clear the codes when you drop the car off, that way will do its bulb self test ok, takes a few drives normally before the light comes back on. Not sure of the legal implication, but I would be happy selling it normally like that, but at a car auction anything goes.
Tame Technician said:
I'd consider taking the MIL bulb out and send it to action. OR better still clear the codes when you drop the car off, that way will do its bulb self test ok, takes a few drives normally before the light comes back on. Not sure of the legal implication, but I would be happy selling it normally like that, but at a car auction anything goes.
Niiice....
[quote=Tame Technician]Not wanting to add to the misery, but before you part with four big ones, and thinking about posible other future costly repairs , you might want to Google DSG mechatronics unit.
German engineering quality sounds like a thing of the past then. And seeing as the Japs look like they are heading the same way I suppose we're all being given the same short shrift by the money hungry multinationals :-(
Hopefully the DSG won't misbehave and it'll last until sold. God knows what I'll get next.
German engineering quality sounds like a thing of the past then. And seeing as the Japs look like they are heading the same way I suppose we're all being given the same short shrift by the money hungry multinationals :-(
Hopefully the DSG won't misbehave and it'll last until sold. God knows what I'll get next.
i must say ive not come accros a VR that has a stretched chain on it. Usually its the tensioners+guides that wear out and the chain itself is a lifetime part.
as Tame Tech has said the reason the job is so expensive is because the cam chain is on the gearbox side of the motor compared to the majority of engines having the chain on the oposite side for better access.
Since you have DSG i dont know much about that but usually on manual VR6 based cars its a case of replacing the clutch and often the head gasket whilst the chains are being done that way its unlikely the engine will need to come apart for another 80+K. In my experience the VR6 chain guides/tensioners have a varied lifespan and some people manage 80-120k before the rattling starts, others like a friends corrado got to 180k on original chains/tensioner system.
dave
as Tame Tech has said the reason the job is so expensive is because the cam chain is on the gearbox side of the motor compared to the majority of engines having the chain on the oposite side for better access.
Since you have DSG i dont know much about that but usually on manual VR6 based cars its a case of replacing the clutch and often the head gasket whilst the chains are being done that way its unlikely the engine will need to come apart for another 80+K. In my experience the VR6 chain guides/tensioners have a varied lifespan and some people manage 80-120k before the rattling starts, others like a friends corrado got to 180k on original chains/tensioner system.
dave
Fireblade69 said:
Tame Technician said:
Not wanting to add to the misery, but before you part with four big ones, and thinking about posible other future costly repairs , you might want to Google DSG mechatronics unit.
German engineering quality sounds like a thing of the past then. And seeing as the Japs look like they are heading the same way I suppose we're all being given the same short shrift by the money hungry multinationals :-(
Hopefully the DSG won't misbehave and it'll last until sold. God knows what I'll get next.
I dont think german build quality is particually good or bad, All modern cars have there reliability issues. Anything with an auto box is a bit of a ticking bomb. I wouldnt loose faith in Audi if you were previously a fan.German engineering quality sounds like a thing of the past then. And seeing as the Japs look like they are heading the same way I suppose we're all being given the same short shrift by the money hungry multinationals :-(
Hopefully the DSG won't misbehave and it'll last until sold. God knows what I'll get next.
The VR6 chain thing has apparantly existed since, well the first VR6. The problem is, back then it needed doing when it rattled well over 120-150k miles, now the engine management is more advanced it starts to notice the valve timing is a fraction out and puts the warning light on long before it gets bad enough to ratle, which can be less than 100k. I'd have a 2.0TFSI S3 or A3 manual if I had the money. I'd even have a 1.8T all be it with an extra oil pressure gauge added. Just do the research, google is your friend.
I want a V70T5 volvo next, trying to find what might go wrong is proving hard, so I guess thats a good sign.
I've never felt so much like one of my customers when my GSXR gearbox failed, I couldnt beleive it, japanese sports bikes dont go wrong, that why we dont have italian ones. But 2 secs on google and a GSXR forum and yep they do that, if had know in advance I might have been nicer to it, or sold it before it was 5 years old.
I'm in conversation with Audi on this. tbh, I love the car and I'm happy to stump up some cash to get it sorted, not 4 bags worth, but some. I'll look to keep it but sell the fecker on after a couple of years before the guarantee runs out I suppose. Can't quite bring myself to palm it on onto some unsuspecting private buyer and suspect that my Jonah luck will prevent me from palming it off on a dealer or in an auction for some reason.
Thanks for the assist though.
Thanks for the assist though.
Agree fully with Chimune.
The idea of hiding a known fault is underhand and I would not allow a person with the mind set of T T to work on any of our cars.
I am probably an idiot, but when we sold my wife's car, we had a broken spring (almost impossible to spot as it was only the last 2 inches that had broken off), so we replaced both front springs and put a new MOT on the car for peace of mind for us and the new owner.
Treat people as you expect them to treat you!
The idea of hiding a known fault is underhand and I would not allow a person with the mind set of T T to work on any of our cars.
I am probably an idiot, but when we sold my wife's car, we had a broken spring (almost impossible to spot as it was only the last 2 inches that had broken off), so we replaced both front springs and put a new MOT on the car for peace of mind for us and the new owner.
Treat people as you expect them to treat you!
Edited by gf15 on Saturday 8th May 17:30
gf15 said:
Agree fully with Chimune.
The idea of hiding a known fault is underhand and I would not allow a person with the mind set of T T to work on any of our cars.
I am probably an idiot, but when we sold my wife's car, we had a broken spring (almost impossible to spot as it was only the last 2 inches that had broken off), so we replaced both front springs and put a new MOT on the car for peace of mind for us and the new owner.
Treat people as you expect them to treat you!
Can I reiterate I was talking about selling it at auction (thats what they are for), not standing there on the drive telling the poor sole about to buy it what a great car it is, knowing full well there was a £4k bill arround the corner. The idea of hiding a known fault is underhand and I would not allow a person with the mind set of T T to work on any of our cars.
I am probably an idiot, but when we sold my wife's car, we had a broken spring (almost impossible to spot as it was only the last 2 inches that had broken off), so we replaced both front springs and put a new MOT on the car for peace of mind for us and the new owner.
Treat people as you expect them to treat you!
Edited by gf15 on Saturday 8th May 17:30
It just common scence to cut losses, if the car is worth £8k full value private sale, and £6k at auction, your are loosing £2k. The repair bill is £4k, so its £2k cheaper to sell it. Its just maths. I fail to see how this opinion/my abillity to subtract 2 from 4, makes me underhand and not worthy of working on any cars.
Here's the crux. I want to keep the car as she's well spec'd and drives beautifully when there's no cam chain problem. I can't bring myself to sell it privately without addressing the problem as it kind of goes against the grain a bit and as others have mentioned, do unto others. Also, even though the law is quite clear on this sold as seen malarkey, caveat emptor might be alright in the context but it's not going to help if you wake up in the morning to find your new pride and joy with several new key-induced racing stripes on the sides and some very, very low profile tyres.
As for taking the bulb out, that may have been possible in 1974; pretty sure that won't work nowadays what with PCBs and surface mount LEDs. Not that I entertained that as a serious suggestion anyway.
I'll be happy to palm it off on to the trade without so much as a whistle to the idea of 4 large requiring being spent on it. The majority of the cost is labour anyway so I would expect that to be swallowed by a dealer looking to re-sell. With any luck they'll see the light and think that it's only a minor sensor issue. I'm even happy to tell them that it's a difference between the cam sensor and the speed sensor causing the problem. If they assume one of them is knackered, so be it.
So, we'll see what Audi say 1st and then we'll take it from there.
Incidentally, anyone wanting their VAG car scanning with VCDS in the South East, drop me a line. Only £4,079.73 a go :-)
As for taking the bulb out, that may have been possible in 1974; pretty sure that won't work nowadays what with PCBs and surface mount LEDs. Not that I entertained that as a serious suggestion anyway.
I'll be happy to palm it off on to the trade without so much as a whistle to the idea of 4 large requiring being spent on it. The majority of the cost is labour anyway so I would expect that to be swallowed by a dealer looking to re-sell. With any luck they'll see the light and think that it's only a minor sensor issue. I'm even happy to tell them that it's a difference between the cam sensor and the speed sensor causing the problem. If they assume one of them is knackered, so be it.
So, we'll see what Audi say 1st and then we'll take it from there.
Incidentally, anyone wanting their VAG car scanning with VCDS in the South East, drop me a line. Only £4,079.73 a go :-)
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