4.5 or 4.2 cerbera?

[Zondafcs]

Hi everyone

I'm a car crazed 18year old kid who's father is looking to buy a V8 cerbera. He asked me if I could find out which one would be the best. Now, being from Belgium, gaining good info on this seems to be a lot harder than I expected.

A few questiions:
- If finances support a cerbera form the year 2000 upwards, is it somewhat idiotic to buy an older model?
- If he does buy a 2000 upwards cerbera, which one should he buy? A regular 4.5? A regular 4.2? Or a 4.5 lightweight edition with the 450BHP?
- If he decides to go with an older cerbera (older than the year 2000), which would be best, 4.2 or 4.5?

On replying, please bare in mind that I know the condition of all these should be mint. The car he'll buy shall be inspected by a tvr mechanic on site before closing the deal. Although I have read something about it not making any difference wether they are inspected or not.

Hoping for some replies.

kind regards,

Yehann

[Gazzab]

Hi and welcome, see comments in CAPS.

Zondafcs said:

Hi everyone

I'm a car crazed 18year old kid who's father is looking to buy a V8 cerbera. He asked me if I could find out which one would be the best. Now, being from Belgium, gaining good info on this seems to be a lot harder than I expected.

A few questiions:
- If finances support a cerbera form the year 2000 upwards, is it somewhat idiotic to buy an older model? JUST BUY THE BEST CAR YOU CAN AFFORD. THE LATER A CAR THEN NORMALLY THE BETTER IT IS LIKELY TO BE.
- If he does buy a 2000 upwards cerbera, which one should he buy? A regular 4.5? A regular 4.2? Or a 4.5 lightweight edition with the 450BHP? THERE ISNT A LIGHWEIGHT WITH 450BHP. THE LIGHTWEIGHT AND NON-LIGHTWEIGHT 4.5S ARE ALL A QUOTED 420BHP BUT IN FACT ARE NEARER 380BHP. ALL POST 2000 CARS WILL BE 'LIGHTWEIGHT' MODEL (THEY ARENT ACTUALLY LIGHTER).
THE RED ROSE 4.5 IS QUOTED AS 440BHP AND SHOULD MAKE NEAR 410 BHP STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. THE 4.5'S THOUGH CAN BE TUNED TO CIRCA 410 TO 440 BHP WITH A REMAP ETC
- If he decides to go with an older cerbera (older than the year 2000), which would be best, 4.2 or 4.5? NEITHER IS BEST. JUST BUY THE BEST ONE YOU CAN AFFORD. THE 4.2 WILL BE MARGINALLY CHEAPER NORMALLY.

On replying, please bare in mind that I know the condition of all these should be mint. The car he'll buy shall be inspected by a tvr mechanic on site before closing the deal. Although I have read something about it not making any difference wether they are inspected or not.
NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND THESE COMMENTS. MOST CARS WONT BE MINT. MAKE SURE YOU CHOOSE THE RIGHT PERSON TO DO THE INSPECTION. THESE ARE 10 YEAR OLD HANDMADE CARS AFTERALL.
Hoping for some replies.
YOU DIDNT MENTION THE SPEED SIX ENGINES. WORTH CONSIDERING?

kind regards,

Yehann

[fatjon]

The later "LW" editions had a better front view as the big roll bar at the top of the screen is redesigned to improve front vision. The 4.5 is the one to have but the 4.2 is also very good. The 6 cylinder engine is reputed to have a lot of problems. Some will disagree but I would not consider a 6 cylinder, resale values reflect this concern about reliability. There are a few engine builders now selling "fixed" 6 cylinder engines with mods to improve reliability but the price is such that they can't lose if you have a warranty claim as you have already paid for the next two rebuilds.

Buy on condition and get a COMPETANT inspection from a TVR specialist. If the clutch is not new budget for buying one very soon. Life can be as low as 15-30k miles. Service history is very important, especially oil changes.

A list of significant problems I have had with my 4.5 LW in the last 15,000 miles (18 months)

Cracked exhaust manifolds, £1000 / pair
Clutch £400 + fitting
Clutch master and slave cylinders £250 plus fitting
Throttle pots (throttle position sensors)£100 per pair
Rear oil seal, very cheap but lots of hours labour
Wheel speed sensor
Leaking induction hoses £360 / set
Radiator £400
Failed lamda sensor £40

The engines (v8) are not too complex for a good mechanic and parts are easily available. The gearbox is a standard Borg Warner T5 so easy to replace for not too much money. Diff is also a standard unit and not too expensive. Cerberas are quite cheap to run and maintain for a super car really.Many of the parts are no more than equivalents for a family car from the upper end of the market, BMW, Audi etc.

[FUBAR]

fatjon said:

A list of significant problems I have had with my 4.5 LW in the last 15,000 miles (18 months)

Cracked exhaust manifolds, £1000 / pair
Clutch £400 + fitting
Clutch master and slave cylinders £250 plus fitting
Throttle pots (throttle position sensors)£100 per pair
Rear oil seal, very cheap but lots of hours labour
Wheel speed sensor
Leaking induction hoses £360 / set
Radiator £400
Failed lamda sensor £40

Pah, they're just normal running costs

[Zondafcs]

Gazzab said:

Hi and welcome, see comments in CAPS.

Zondafcs said:

Hi everyone

I'm a car crazed 18year old kid who's father is looking to buy a V8 cerbera. He asked me if I could find out which one would be the best. Now, being from Belgium, gaining good info on this seems to be a lot harder than I expected.

A few questiions:
- If finances support a cerbera form the year 2000 upwards, is it somewhat idiotic to buy an older model? JUST BUY THE BEST CAR YOU CAN AFFORD. THE LATER A CAR THEN NORMALLY THE BETTER IT IS LIKELY TO BE.
- If he does buy a 2000 upwards cerbera, which one should he buy? A regular 4.5? A regular 4.2? Or a 4.5 lightweight edition with the 450BHP? THERE ISNT A LIGHWEIGHT WITH 450BHP. THE LIGHTWEIGHT AND NON-LIGHTWEIGHT 4.5S ARE ALL A QUOTED 420BHP BUT IN FACT ARE NEARER 380BHP. ALL POST 2000 CARS WILL BE 'LIGHTWEIGHT' MODEL (THEY ARENT ACTUALLY LIGHTER).
THE RED ROSE 4.5 IS QUOTED AS 440BHP AND SHOULD MAKE NEAR 410 BHP STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. THE 4.5'S THOUGH CAN BE TUNED TO CIRCA 410 TO 440 BHP WITH A REMAP ETC
- If he decides to go with an older cerbera (older than the year 2000), which would be best, 4.2 or 4.5? NEITHER IS BEST. JUST BUY THE BEST ONE YOU CAN AFFORD. THE 4.2 WILL BE MARGINALLY CHEAPER NORMALLY.

On replying, please bare in mind that I know the condition of all these should be mint. The car he'll buy shall be inspected by a tvr mechanic on site before closing the deal. Although I have read something about it not making any difference wether they are inspected or not.
NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND THESE COMMENTS. MOST CARS WONT BE MINT. MAKE SURE YOU CHOOSE THE RIGHT PERSON TO DO THE INSPECTION. THESE ARE 10 YEAR OLD HANDMADE CARS AFTERALL.
Hoping for some replies.
YOU DIDNT MENTION THE SPEED SIX ENGINES. WORTH CONSIDERING?

kind regards,

Yehann

thank you for the reply

Thanks for clearing that one up. In terms of driving feel, are there noticeable differences between a red rose, a normal 4.5 post-2000 and a post-2000 4.2?

I didn't mention the speed 6 models because he is in to V8s and not 6cylinder engines.

cheers

[Zondafcs]

Thanks you for the replies so far, they're helping quite a lot

[Zondafcs]

FUBAR said:

fatjon said:

A list of significant problems I have had with my 4.5 LW in the last 15,000 miles (18 months)

Cracked exhaust manifolds, £1000 / pair
Clutch £400 + fitting
Clutch master and slave cylinders £250 plus fitting
Throttle pots (throttle position sensors)£100 per pair
Rear oil seal, very cheap but lots of hours labour
Wheel speed sensor
Leaking induction hoses £360 / set
Radiator £400
Failed lamda sensor £40
Pah, they're just normal running costs

about the clutch, is 30k miles the usual lifetime when driven regularly? Or should these last longer?

[Gazzab]

FUBAR said:

fatjon said:

A list of significant problems I have had with my 4.5 LW in the last 15,000 miles (18 months)

Cracked exhaust manifolds, £1000 / pair
Clutch £400 + fitting
Clutch master and slave cylinders £250 plus fitting
Throttle pots (throttle position sensors)£100 per pair
Rear oil seal, very cheap but lots of hours labour
Wheel speed sensor
Leaking induction hoses £360 / set
Radiator £400
Failed lamda sensor £40

Pah, they're just normal running costs

Thats my monthly running costs (really).

[Gazzab]

Zondafcs said:

Thanks for clearing that one up. In terms of driving feel, are there noticeable differences between a red rose, a normal 4.5 post-2000 and a post-2000 4.2?

I didn't mention the speed 6 models because he is in to V8s and not 6cylinder engines.

cheers

Dont forget the v8 isnt a normal v8, its their own flat plane crank. So no yank burble.
The post 2000 cars will feel much the same - the 4.2 is actually a 4.5 but with different intakes etc. The 4.2 might feel more urgent at pick up compared to a non remapped stanard 4.5. The 4.5 will pull away but only at big speeds. The higher the bhp with a 4.5 then the more likely it is to test you round corners, with traction etc... My Red Rose can lose traction in 3rd gear straight lines which is great fun (when you are in the mood).

[Zondafcs]

Gazzab said:

Zondafcs said:

Thanks for clearing that one up. In terms of driving feel, are there noticeable differences between a red rose, a normal 4.5 post-2000 and a post-2000 4.2?

I didn't mention the speed 6 models because he is in to V8s and not 6cylinder engines.

cheers

Dont forget the v8 isnt a normal v8, its their own flat plane crank. So no yank burble.
The post 2000 cars will feel much the same - the 4.2 is actually a 4.5 but with different intakes etc. The 4.2 might feel more urgent at pick up compared to a non remapped stanard 4.5. The 4.5 will pull away but only at big speeds. The higher the bhp with a 4.5 then the more likely it is to test you round corners, with traction etc... My Red Rose can lose traction in 3rd gear straight lines which is great fun (when you are in the mood).

The flat plane crank is the reason my old man likes cerberas;)He adores a car that responds fiercly to the slightest movement of the loud pedal. I'm kind of new to all this so I don't understand everything perfectly. A remap of the ecu, is it always necessary?

[Gazzab]

Remap isnt neccessary unless you are chasing horses. I have never bothered but others prefer the remapped cars driveability.

[Zondafcs]

Gazzab said:

Remap isnt neccessary unless you are chasing horses. I have never bothered but others prefer the remapped cars driveability.

ah ok.
Do you perhaps know the amount of horses you can gain with ecu tuning?
I don't mean spending tons of money, maybe just a few k.

[JensenA]

Zondafcs said:

Gazzab said:

Remap isnt neccessary unless you are chasing horses. I have never bothered but others prefer the remapped cars driveability.

ah ok.
Do you perhaps know the amount of horses you can gain with ecu tuning?
I don't mean spending tons of money, maybe just a few k.

A Remap with a short Induction kit costs approx £1k. A standard 4.5 can have anything between 350-370hp, the Remap and Short Induction should take you to 400-410, maybe more if you are lucky. You can also get a remap onn the 4.2.
The 4.2 will always be slightly lower in HP than a 4.5, but in real terms there is nothing between them, apart from what a stopwatch will show.
I prefer the AJPV8 because it is an engine unique to the Cerbera, and IMHO is what makes a 'real' Cerbera, however don't dismiss the S6 too readily, there is more develpoment work going on for the S6, and they can be tuned up to 430hp. They also offer (arguably) better value for money.

[Zondafcs]

JensenA said:

Zondafcs said:

Gazzab said:

Remap isnt neccessary unless you are chasing horses. I have never bothered but others prefer the remapped cars driveability.

ah ok.
Do you perhaps know the amount of horses you can gain with ecu tuning?
I don't mean spending tons of money, maybe just a few k.

A Remap with a short Induction kit costs approx £1k. A standard 4.5 can have anything between 350-370hp, the Remap and Short Induction should take you to 400-410, maybe more if you are lucky. You can also get a remap onn the 4.2.
The 4.2 will always be slightly lower in HP than a 4.5, but in real terms there is nothing between them, apart from what a stopwatch will show.
I prefer the AJPV8 because it is an engine unique to the Cerbera, and IMHO is what makes a 'real' Cerbera, however don't dismiss the S6 too readily, there is more develpoment work going on for the S6, and they can be tuned up to 430hp. They also offer (arguably) better value for money.

thanks for the advice
My father said the exact same thing about the AJPV8 when he drove the 4.2 and the 4.5. But the engine kept him a bit wanting for torque(not saying that it is an F20c engine, just not what he expected).
Is there a possibility that the 4.2 AJPv8 can be tuned to around 400lbs/ft of torque without having to spend more than 2.5 maybe 3.5k?

[Gazzab]

The 4.2 isnt very tuneable. Its more fine tuning that adding massive power. The 4.5 remaps can easily add 30bhp. I dont believe an AJP will ever feel torquey when compared to a yank V8. It is certainly more torquey than a Speed 6 engine. Ultimately it likes to be revved.

[Zondafcs]

Gazzab said:

The 4.2 isnt very tuneable. Its more fine tuning that adding massive power. The 4.5 remaps can easily add 30bhp. I dont believe an AJP will ever feel torquey when compared to a yank V8. It is certainly more torquey than a Speed 6 engine. Ultimately it likes to be revved.

True. My father is not trying to break the 210mph mark, but he doesn't want to wait half an hour to go from 60 to 120. How much torque can you gain by just remapping in it?

[FUBAR]

Zondafcs said:

he doesn't want to wait half an hour to go from 60 to 120.

I don't think your father has anything to worry about on that front. There isn't much (anything?) this side of a Nissan GT-R that will be quicker than a Cerb (even the slower Sp6/4.2 ) in that particular speed increment

[Zondafcs]

FUBAR said:

Zondafcs said:

he doesn't want to wait half an hour to go from 60 to 120.

I don't think your father has anything to worry about on that front. There isn't much (anything?) this side of a Nissan GT-R that will be quicker than a Cerb (even the slower Sp6/4.2 ) in that particular speed increment

Fantastic He will undoubtedly go for a V8. Still not sure about the 4.2 or 4.5 though. Does anyone know where I can find a 4.5 red rose with less than 50k on the clock? The one on PH is sold it seems

[Gazzab]

dont put mileage too high up the list... It isnt a good yardstick when buying a cerb. Low miles can in fact be a problem!
A Red Rose 4.5 - you are potentially looking at £18K - £25K for a good one depending on condition and provenance. I know I wouldnt let mine go for peanuts after spending nearly £10k in the last 10 months.

[Steve_T]

Gazzab said:

The 4.2 isnt very tuneable. Its more fine tuning that adding massive power. The 4.5 remaps can easily add 30bhp. I dont believe an AJP will ever feel torquey when compared to a yank V8. It is certainly more torquey than a Speed 6 engine. Ultimately it likes to be revved.

Misnomer here - the 4.2 map is much better as standard than the 4.5, hence the gains made remapping 4.5s