Login | Register
SearchMy Stuff
My ProfileMy PreferencesMy Mates RSS Feed
Reply to Topic
Author Discussion

RW774

Original Poster:

1,042 posts

109 months

[news] 
Saturday 26th June 2010 quote quote all
Good old Euro shirts have accepted the reduction in carbon emmissions by the addition of E5 ( Bio Ethanol additive) in petrol by 2011. E5 is produced organically.
Fine, but all and I mean all, of fuel components/ hoses in historic cars are not compatible with this additive.Whilst the big co`s Ford etc have been undertaking tests on various materials the time clock ticks by.Potentially, the thought of fuel fires beggars belief.Insurance companies will definetly see a way out of costly repairs due to owner ignorance.
For the jaguar, Aston owner, this could be the death knell, as by 2013 E10 will be introduced .That is 10% bio ethanol in fuel, then the hoses, fuel pump and associated problems will no doubt occur by the hundreds if not thousands.
I will be carrying out some simple tests as advised by one of the tech engineers at Ford, to measure firstly the component, then immerse components into a Bio mix for 30 days, withdraw and check for degradation/ swelling.

wildoliver

7,412 posts

102 months

[news] 
Saturday 26th June 2010 quote quote all
I wouldn't lose too much sleep, I still remember the farce over the loss of leaded petrol and the wailing that classic cars would be driven off the road or be forced to use expensive additives/engine adaptations.

Well that didn't happen, most of the additives were proven to be snake oil or simply not necessary and in most cases zero valve seat recession has been found in the real world, certainly I've not come across any.

I see the worse case scenario being a change of rubber hoses caused by degradation of the rubber (something in fact I have noticed recently (past couple of years) on MGB late model fuel line to carb flexi hose which is a hard rubber hose and seems to be failing badly all of a sudden.) I don't see it killing fuel pumps and if it does then ethanol safe diaphragms will soon appear and there is no real reason why it will attack carbs.

I do however believe that pure ethanol (I may be wrong here) can cause alloy castings problems, so it may be interesting to see the effect of 10% ethanol on carb bowls particularly but I really don't feel it's a concern.

Pigeon

18,535 posts

132 months

[news] 
Sunday 27th June 2010 quote quote all
Petrol already does contain ethanol, for its octane-boosting properties. In particular, I believe that when Tesco started selling 99 octane petrol a few years ago it owed its high rating to a large ethanol content.

The ethanol being "bio" or not, of course, doesn't make any difference (apart from being bloody stupid because it consumes more fuel energy in the farming and processing than you get back as ethanol...).

barefoot

1,050 posts

170 months

[news] 
Sunday 27th June 2010 quote quote all
When I had my Mark 2 restored it would not run properly and there was contamination in the fuel filter, after several tries at a remedy we found it was the fuel tank that had been "attacked" by the ethanol in the fuel. We wrote to Shell querying this fuel and this was there reply:

Unfortunately the simple answer to your questions is that 'There isn't a simple answer'. The Issues you raise are certainly real issues for vintage car owners. The fuel we sell will continue to comply with the relevant fuel standards and specifications as it did previously. The finished petrol will meet the UK gasoline standard EN228, and the maximum amount of ethanol blended into the fuel will be in line with this and the RTFO (renewable fuel transport obligation - 5% max). However that doesn't really help owners of vintage vehicles. There are serveral things you can do to minimise the effects of ethanol. Firstly run a non-alcohol based fuel stabilizer all year round. As you say, older engines were designed primarily for straight gasoline, and using ethanol without protection may cause corrosion of some metals in the engine. It also may damage natural rubber and cork parts. Fuel Stabilizers (I believe Stabil do a product) contain additives to protect against rust and corrosion caused by ethanol fuel blends. If practical Install a water separation filter and fuel filter, and replace fuel lines, gaskets or o-rings with new ethanol resistant materials. Similarly replace the fuel tank if necessary with one made from an ethanol resistant material.

In terms of laying up the vehicle; Assuming the above measures are in place (I cannot make a laying up procedure if they are not, as it simply would not be advisable with fuel containing ethanol), I would suggest filling the fuel tank to about 95% of its capacity with fuel, rather than leaving the fuel tank low. This minimizes; the tank-breathing effect, the loss of volatile components and the ingress of moisture into the fuel tank. The later in extreme cases can cause the appearance of free-water in the fuel.

If a fuel is to be stored in a motor vehicle fuel tank, then maintaining fuel quality is important in order to maintain good start-up and a good level of vehicle driveability. When an engine fails to start after a period of lay up, it may be less to do with fuel deterioration, and could be related to un-seasonal fuel, which may not be sufficiently volatile to start the engine from cold. Non volatile residues are often observed in the fuel tank, delivery system and/or carburetors in cases of severe evaporative loss of a gasoline. The residue can manifest itself as either a gum or lacquer-like film or deposit, or a gel-like substance. This residue would be a combination of low-volatility constituents and detergent additives that are found in gasoline, but concentrated after evaporation. We do not advise storing fuels in vehicles for more than 6 months. You should also take into account the differences between summer and winter grades of petrol. Petrol has a higher volatility in the winter in order to enable cold starting. For this reason it is better to fill the tank with a winter grade fuel (16th October - 14th April) rather than a summer grade.




Sheila De'Ath
Technical Information Services
Shell U.K. Oil Products Limited
Registered in England and Wales
Registered Number : 3625633
Registered office: Shell Centre, London SE1 7NA
Correspondence Address:
Shell UK Oil Products Ltd,
Rowlandsway House,
Rowlandsway,
Manchester M22 5SB,
United Kingdom.
Tel: +44 8708 500 924 Fax: +44 (1)161 933 3233
Email: productinfo-uk@shell.com
Internet: www.shell.com

Visit Shell LubeMatch our on-line vehicle recommendation database at: www.shell.co.uk/lubematch
Material Safety Data Sheets and Product Technical Data Sheets can be obtained from the following Shell website: www.epc.shell.com/>





Balmoral Green

30,044 posts

134 months

[news] 
Sunday 27th June 2010 quote quote all
On the plus side though, get yourself a reflux still and make your own, the first 2500 litres you produce is duty free too. I've been home distilling on a small scale for personal alcohol consumption, but now thinking of upgrading my still and running the car on the stuff. Alcohol/ethanol/bio-ethanol are one and the same thing.
Advertisement

a8hex

3,656 posts

109 months

[news] 
Sunday 27th June 2010 quote quote all
I know that this biomix stuff is causing a lot of problems for Classic car drivers in the US where they are already suffering this stuff. It isn't just the rubber components that have problems. As Barefoot's posting says, there are corrosion problems with the metal parts in the fuel system too. The Ethanol absorbs water which then leads to the corrosion problems. Also the fuel goes off if you leave it in the tank. My understanding from correspondents on the Jag-Lovers XK list is that if you leave your tank full over winter then it won't be much use by spring. How the hell do you safely dispose of 14 gallons of contaminated fuel from a domestic setting?

I wasn't aware that the Tesco's 99 octane fuel was ethanol rich. I was under the impression that biomix lowered the calorific density of fuel (ie your fuel economy is going to get worse), the XK seems to run nicely on the Tesco's stuff.

RW774

Original Poster:

1,042 posts

109 months

[news] 
Sunday 27th June 2010 quote quote all
This is good stuff, I suppose shell would reccommend filling your car fully before storage, sounds like clap trap to me.I believe there are a number of compoents on historic vehicles that are not ethanol compatible, either currently available or original. Silver soldered fuel joints, leaded tank sealant,brass fittings, nylon couplings, rubber hoses etc etc.Come on Shell what is and what isn`t compatible? all or nothing ?.
It`s bad enough to suffer fitting st parts,becuase of their manufactrung quality is so poor. Do you think the component manufacturers actually care their components meet the new ethanol additive?.I doubt it.
It`s up to the petroleum companies to advise the industry, I don`t mean the big manufacturers, I MEAN THE PUBLIC, hopefuly then the aftermarket suppliers will sit up and take notice. If we, the repairers don`t buy the products , they will have to change.
I notice Pigeons remarks regarding the ethanol content of modern fuels. Perhaps barefoot could enlighten us as to what is the current content and how Shell has directed the Classic acr industry in respect of the non compatible components.If there is a component compatibilty issue and a % of ethanol already exits in fuel, why have the oil industry not advised us in the past? Filling up your tank is not a good answer, unless your selling the stuff.If Ford can carry out extensive tests, Fiat choose to ignore it then where do we the consumers stand?

barefoot

1,050 posts

170 months

[news] 
Sunday 27th June 2010 quote quote all
Another part of Shell's reply was "As all petrol now contains a small percentage ( 0 -5 % in the UK at the moment) of ethanol"

Shell I am led to believe do not reccommend ethanol based fuel in boats or motorcycles!

A.G.

970 posts

136 months

[news] 
Sunday 27th June 2010 quote quote all
All cars on sale today are warranted for use with E5 (petrol) or B5 (diesel). Tesco and Morrisons both put 5% bioethanol into their ordinary petrol in certain areas of the UK (mostly in the south-east) although they do not advertise this. So you might already be running your car on E5 without even realising it.

Discontinuation of 5 star fuel wasn't the end of the world.

Lack of leaded petrol supply in the UK didn't cause armageddon.

I very much appreciate that the classic car owner is not at the forefront of the Petrochem envirolentilists priorities and yes, it looks like an issue but lets not get all Daily Mail about it yet. It MAY only come into force in 2011 and there are a lot of interested parties working on it already.


RW774

Original Poster:

1,042 posts

109 months

[news] 
Sunday 27th June 2010 quote quote all
Thanks for that Barefoot.If Ethonal based diesel / petrol is already on sale read my posting on the jaguar Forum re crap diesel.As a repairer you will see my point.If AG owned an X or Stype he too would be going Dail Mail about the issues i`ve spoken of.

aeropilot

8,911 posts

113 months

[news] 
Monday 28th June 2010 quote quote all
a8hex said:
Also the fuel goes off if you leave it in the tank. My understanding from correspondents on the Jag-Lovers XK list is that if you leave your tank full over winter then it won't be much use by spring. How the hell do you safely dispose of 14 gallons of contaminated fuel from a domestic setting?
Over winter......! It goes off after a mere 6 weeks.

When I had my Sunbeam-Lotus, I stopped laying it up over winter for these reasons. I'd try and give it a reasonable run at least once a month even in winter, as long as there wasn't shed loads of salt on the road.

a8hex said:
I wasn't aware that the Tesco's 99 octane fuel was ethanol rich. I was under the impression that biomix lowered the calorific density of fuel (ie your fuel economy is going to get worse), the XK seems to run nicely on the Tesco's stuff.
Yup, Tesco 99 has 10% ethanol IIRC to get the 99 figure. It's rubbish fuel imho. No car/bike I've had since they brought it out has run well on the stuff.

onomatopoeia

3,297 posts

103 months

[news] 
Monday 28th June 2010 quote quote all
barefoot said:
(quoting shell) We do not advise storing fuels in vehicles for more than 6 months.
When I scrapped the two rusting Imps on my drive I pumped the fuel out of them into jerry cans and from there used it in my working Imp and in my VW T25 Caravelle. Both cars I scrapped had sat with the fuel in their tanks for the better part of 10 years and it worked fine.
Reply to Topic