Discussion
Afternoon all
sorry but its another 'what car' thread on behalf of a friend, he was looking at a 330d but is now toying with the idea of one of these 2.
he does 15-20k on average a year and is likely to remap at some point
guessing the s3 will be abit quicker, but how do these compare with running costs, handling, real world performance etc
cheers in advance
sorry but its another 'what car' thread on behalf of a friend, he was looking at a 330d but is now toying with the idea of one of these 2.
he does 15-20k on average a year and is likely to remap at some point
guessing the s3 will be abit quicker, but how do these compare with running costs, handling, real world performance etc
cheers in advance
That's a bit of a chalk/cheese comparison - 130/135 would be more even.
S3 will be a fair bit faster and more tractable, 123 will be economical.
S3 won't go sideways when provoked, it will just go faster. S3 is not mad money to run, expect 30 to the gallon driven normally on a run with an average in the mid 20s (low 30s doable when driving miss daisy). Not stupid to service but hold in mind the diff oil is changed at 20k intervals on the S3.
I've no idea what a 123 costs to run I'm afraid.
S3 will be a fair bit faster and more tractable, 123 will be economical.
S3 won't go sideways when provoked, it will just go faster. S3 is not mad money to run, expect 30 to the gallon driven normally on a run with an average in the mid 20s (low 30s doable when driving miss daisy). Not stupid to service but hold in mind the diff oil is changed at 20k intervals on the S3.
I've no idea what a 123 costs to run I'm afraid.
123d or S3? I sincerely doubt either the right car for them if they are considering both, based on how different they are!
If they are interested in a medium sized hatch with a quality badge and a bit of poke i would say the 5door 1 series is too small, and the S3 will probably be a bit much on running costs if they are doing 15-20k.
Whats wrong with the A3 170TDi? pretty sure you can get most of the toys you'd find on the S3 and its will be much better on running costs.
Remember running costs isn't just petrol and tax, look at insurance, tyre prices, servicing etc etc and suddenly i think they'll rule out the S3 if they want a 123d
editted to account for using the exact same expression as G to describe the comparison
If they are interested in a medium sized hatch with a quality badge and a bit of poke i would say the 5door 1 series is too small, and the S3 will probably be a bit much on running costs if they are doing 15-20k.
Whats wrong with the A3 170TDi? pretty sure you can get most of the toys you'd find on the S3 and its will be much better on running costs.
Remember running costs isn't just petrol and tax, look at insurance, tyre prices, servicing etc etc and suddenly i think they'll rule out the S3 if they want a 123d
editted to account for using the exact same expression as G to describe the comparison
Edited by Cost Captain on Tuesday 27th July 18:15
Dr G said:
That's a bit of a chalk/cheese comparison - 130/135 would be more even.
S3 will be a fair bit faster and more tractable, 123 will be economical.
S3 won't go sideways when provoked, it will just go faster. S3 is not mad money to run, expect 30 to the gallon driven normally on a run with an average in the mid 20s (low 30s doable when driving miss daisy). Not stupid to service but hold in mind the diff oil is changed at 20k intervals on the S3.
I've no idea what a 123 costs to run I'm afraid.
Surely the new S3 is 40k for Haldex oil like the VW MKV R32.S3 will be a fair bit faster and more tractable, 123 will be economical.
S3 won't go sideways when provoked, it will just go faster. S3 is not mad money to run, expect 30 to the gallon driven normally on a run with an average in the mid 20s (low 30s doable when driving miss daisy). Not stupid to service but hold in mind the diff oil is changed at 20k intervals on the S3.
I've no idea what a 123 costs to run I'm afraid.
Cost Captain said:
123d or S3? I sincerely doubt either the right car for them if they are considering both, based on how different they are!
If they are interested in a medium sized hatch with a quality badge and a bit of poke i would say the 5door 1 series is too small, and the S3 will probably be a bit much on running costs if they are doing 15-20k.
Whats wrong with the A3 170TDi? pretty sure you can get most of the toys you'd find on the S3 and its will be much better on running costs.
Remember running costs isn't just petrol and tax, look at insurance, tyre prices, servicing etc etc and suddenly i think they'll rule out the S3 if they want a 123d
editted to account for using the exact same expression as G to describe the comparison
isnt the a3 170tdi a bit of a let down though? poor mpg and not very reliable is what springs to mind from what i have read on hereIf they are interested in a medium sized hatch with a quality badge and a bit of poke i would say the 5door 1 series is too small, and the S3 will probably be a bit much on running costs if they are doing 15-20k.
Whats wrong with the A3 170TDi? pretty sure you can get most of the toys you'd find on the S3 and its will be much better on running costs.
Remember running costs isn't just petrol and tax, look at insurance, tyre prices, servicing etc etc and suddenly i think they'll rule out the S3 if they want a 123d
editted to account for using the exact same expression as G to describe the comparison
Edited by Cost Captain on Tuesday 27th July 18:15
yes i have heard the 1 series is abit on the small side when it comes to the boot and rear leg room, but they get alot of praise on here aswell (looks aside)
ok guys i know its a strange vs choice but i think this is what it boils down to:
car cant be huge due to his o/h will drive it (she considers 3 series big)
she wont want a big engine like a 3.0, v8 etc for tax and fuel and a heavy lump up front may annoy her when parking(though i will have a go at making him consider the 130i as he had an e46 300ci before and they 130i is sooo damn frugal)
it needs to be easy to drive and nice looking, both seem to like cars such as audi,bmw etc
fast.
to me both are fast hot hatches and remapped both would be a very nice daily driver. its just a case of his heart says s3 and head says 123d
car cant be huge due to his o/h will drive it (she considers 3 series big)
she wont want a big engine like a 3.0, v8 etc for tax and fuel and a heavy lump up front may annoy her when parking(though i will have a go at making him consider the 130i as he had an e46 300ci before and they 130i is sooo damn frugal)
it needs to be easy to drive and nice looking, both seem to like cars such as audi,bmw etc
fast.
to me both are fast hot hatches and remapped both would be a very nice daily driver. its just a case of his heart says s3 and head says 123d
Dr G said:
I've no idea what a 123 costs to run I'm afraid.
Not a lot. Condition based servicing means every 18,000 miles or so, at a cost of about £200. It'll do 45mpg without trying. get it off the runflats and the tyres are reasonable too about £100/corner.
Remapped to 250bhp it goes alright too.
In terms of driving qualities, ultimately it boils down to whether you want RWD or not. If you do, it's easily a more involving and fun car than the S3 in my opinion, especially with the traction patially disabled, or fully (which activates the e-diff).
If you're coming from front drive hatches and like them, the S3 will be more familiar. I'm a RWD snob and found the S3 rather dreary dynamically, but that's just me.
pilchardthecat said:
Dr G said:
I've no idea what a 123 costs to run I'm afraid.
Not a lot. Condition based servicing means every 18,000 miles or so, at a cost of about £200. It'll do 45mpg without trying. get it off the runflats and the tyres are reasonable too about £100/corner.
Remapped to 250bhp it goes alright too.
In terms of driving qualities, ultimately it boils down to whether you want RWD or not. If you do, it's easily a more involving and fun car than the S3 in my opinion, especially with the traction patially disabled, or fully (which activates the e-diff).
If you're coming from front drive hatches and like them, the S3 will be more familiar. I'm a RWD snob and found the S3 rather dreary dynamically, but that's just me.
130i be the best of both for you?
rich85uk said:
pilchardthecat said:
Dr G said:
I've no idea what a 123 costs to run I'm afraid.
Not a lot. Condition based servicing means every 18,000 miles or so, at a cost of about £200. It'll do 45mpg without trying. get it off the runflats and the tyres are reasonable too about £100/corner.
Remapped to 250bhp it goes alright too.
In terms of driving qualities, ultimately it boils down to whether you want RWD or not. If you do, it's easily a more involving and fun car than the S3 in my opinion, especially with the traction patially disabled, or fully (which activates the e-diff).
If you're coming from front drive hatches and like them, the S3 will be more familiar. I'm a RWD snob and found the S3 rather dreary dynamically, but that's just me.
130i be the best of both for you?
The 123d by contrast is great on the limit with the traction control off. It's very communicative (given that it's not a sports car) and it's easy to get the back end out and it's responsive enough to steer by the throttle (not something the S3 will do). The remap makes it very quick, but does add some elasticity to the throttle response above 3krpm (basically it adds a bit of turbo lag back into the equation at higher revs, something that you don't get hardly at all unmapped due to the twin turbo setup). The power delivery is completely unlike the VAG diesels as it loves to be revved to the limiter. The problem is you will find yourself doing this all the time since it doesn't seem to effect the fuel economy all that much and that means you get used to the performance.
The 130i does have a great engine, but it's not as revvy at the very top as i would have liked. It's also a heavier engine than the 4 pot diesel which adds a touch more understeeriness. It is easily the most responsive of the 3 on the throttle though by some margin, and is the purest driver's car. Unlike the diesel though, it will be economical only if you have light foot.
Slightly OT, did anyone read the article in Evo about electric power steering. Basically there are two camps, Assisted without ironing out the road "noise", or Assisted and ironing out road "noise".
BWM are in the former camp, Audi in the latter. The article went on to say a rally driver would prefer the former, a racing driver the latter.
Many people complain the Audi can be dull so worth bearing in mind the above.
For the record I had an S3 for a couple of years after coming from Imprezas and Evos (and one BMW 330D). I loved it TBH, wasn't qute as raw as the above but a very capable point to point car which morphed into an small exec cruiser when the family were on board. Reasonable running costs on long life servicing, and being an S car, is different from the rest of the range, unlike a BM. Ialso prefer the "Audi experience" over BMW but granted that may just be my local dealers.
To pick up the comment above, he 170TDi suffers from DPF clogging when mileage is predominantly short town runs. On 15k a year I wouldn't expect that to be an issue.
BWM are in the former camp, Audi in the latter. The article went on to say a rally driver would prefer the former, a racing driver the latter.
Many people complain the Audi can be dull so worth bearing in mind the above.
For the record I had an S3 for a couple of years after coming from Imprezas and Evos (and one BMW 330D). I loved it TBH, wasn't qute as raw as the above but a very capable point to point car which morphed into an small exec cruiser when the family were on board. Reasonable running costs on long life servicing, and being an S car, is different from the rest of the range, unlike a BM. Ialso prefer the "Audi experience" over BMW but granted that may just be my local dealers.
To pick up the comment above, he 170TDi suffers from DPF clogging when mileage is predominantly short town runs. On 15k a year I wouldn't expect that to be an issue.
The 123d is a fantastic car, great handling and practicality. Is the coupe an option for "your friend"? (mine is for sale if you want me to link it).
On a recent trip back from Germany on the Autobahn I was catching 3.0 A6 quattros and Caymans so it has absolutely no problem with power and mine hasn't been remapped.
Have driven a few Golf GTI edition 30s, which I believe have the same engine and they were very nice but no where near as fun to drive.
On a recent trip back from Germany on the Autobahn I was catching 3.0 A6 quattros and Caymans so it has absolutely no problem with power and mine hasn't been remapped.
Have driven a few Golf GTI edition 30s, which I believe have the same engine and they were very nice but no where near as fun to drive.
FamilyDub said:
To be blunt:-
Economy first, performance second - 123d
Performance first, economy second - S3
Depends what you mean by 'performance'Economy first, performance second - 123d
Performance first, economy second - S3
If you mean absolute point-to-point times, the S3 narrowly has the edge.
If you mean chassis and steering feedback, handling and dynamic capabilities, you're completely wrong. The BMW is the better car
I'm sorry, but I think the S3 would actually be faster over the twistys as well - certainly neater.
I do agree on your point about feedback, though, the BM would have the S3 licked for involvement, fun factor etc. Could the 130i is a good compromise?
I'm going to stop contributing to this thread, because I'm looking for an 8P S3, so I'm biased.
JD123d said:
The 123d is a fantastic car, great handling and practicality. Is the coupe an option for "your friend"? (mine is for sale if you want me to link it).
On a recent trip back from Germany on the Autobahn I was catching 3.0 A6 quattros and Caymans so it has absolutely no problem with power and mine hasn't been remapped.
Have driven a few Golf GTI edition 30s, which I believe have the same engine and they were very nice but no where near as fun to drive.
may i ask how much for? coupes are nicer looking so if the prie is right On a recent trip back from Germany on the Autobahn I was catching 3.0 A6 quattros and Caymans so it has absolutely no problem with power and mine hasn't been remapped.
Have driven a few Golf GTI edition 30s, which I believe have the same engine and they were very nice but no where near as fun to drive.
ed30's are the same engine, but detuned to 230bhp and fwd. so im guessing they have similar power/weight ratio?
rich85uk said:
JD123d said:
The 123d is a fantastic car, great handling and practicality. Is the coupe an option for "your friend"? (mine is for sale if you want me to link it).
On a recent trip back from Germany on the Autobahn I was catching 3.0 A6 quattros and Caymans so it has absolutely no problem with power and mine hasn't been remapped.
Have driven a few Golf GTI edition 30s, which I believe have the same engine and they were very nice but no where near as fun to drive.
may i ask how much for? coupes are nicer looking so if the prie is right On a recent trip back from Germany on the Autobahn I was catching 3.0 A6 quattros and Caymans so it has absolutely no problem with power and mine hasn't been remapped.
Have driven a few Golf GTI edition 30s, which I believe have the same engine and they were very nice but no where near as fun to drive.
ed30's are the same engine, but detuned to 230bhp and fwd. so im guessing they have similar power/weight ratio?
What does th eguy want from the car.
The 1 series is a better drivers car but is very cramped (front and back seats), clostraphobic (sp?) and has a boot smaller than a 20-year old Polo. The five door is difficult to get into (front and rear). I've not tried a 3-door. As a 'car' it's arwful - as Clarkson said, like it or not.
Bear in mind that it's not that 'small' a car so the above is even worse.
The 1 series is a better drivers car but is very cramped (front and back seats), clostraphobic (sp?) and has a boot smaller than a 20-year old Polo. The five door is difficult to get into (front and rear). I've not tried a 3-door. As a 'car' it's arwful - as Clarkson said, like it or not.
Bear in mind that it's not that 'small' a car so the above is even worse.
mk1fan said:
What does th eguy want from the car.
The 1 series is a better drivers car but is very cramped (front and back seats), clostraphobic (sp?) and has a boot smaller than a 20-year old Polo. The five door is difficult to get into (front and rear). I've not tried a 3-door. As a 'car' it's arwful - as Clarkson said, like it or not.
Bear in mind that it's not that 'small' a car so the above is even worse.
not sure where you got your boot size from?The 1 series is a better drivers car but is very cramped (front and back seats), clostraphobic (sp?) and has a boot smaller than a 20-year old Polo. The five door is difficult to get into (front and rear). I've not tried a 3-door. As a 'car' it's arwful - as Clarkson said, like it or not.
Bear in mind that it's not that 'small' a car so the above is even worse.
Vw golf is 340ltrs
1series is 320ltrs
fiat coupe is 295ltrs
current polo is 275ltrs
3series is 450 iirc
mondy is 500+
A laptop bag and a couple of (small) carriers usually fills the boot unless there are a load of cubby holes that I haven't seen - which is a bit of a cheat to include in the luggage capacity.
I'm not a huge bloke and I find the interior - front and back - very cramped. Significantly worse than the mkiv golf let alone the mkv or A3.
You pays your money I suppose but there are lots of different cars in the same class that are better for day to day use. Yes it's good on the track but I don't drive on the track each day. I certainly wouldn't want to do 20k a year in one.
I'm not a huge bloke and I find the interior - front and back - very cramped. Significantly worse than the mkiv golf let alone the mkv or A3.
You pays your money I suppose but there are lots of different cars in the same class that are better for day to day use. Yes it's good on the track but I don't drive on the track each day. I certainly wouldn't want to do 20k a year in one.
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