Would the Government really scrap the Tornado?
Discussion
The front page of the times is leading with a story that HM Government is considering grounding the Tornado fleey in an effort to save £7.5 billion.
Lots of stuff in the Daily Wail on line also....
Would they do this... or would they have been replacing it with Typhoon anyway?
http://www.politicshome.com/uk/story/7674/
Lots of stuff in the Daily Wail on line also....
Would they do this... or would they have been replacing it with Typhoon anyway?
http://www.politicshome.com/uk/story/7674/
Grounding and Scrapping are not the same.
I presume you are referring to the Tornado GR4 and not the Tornado F3.
The Tornado GR4 is the RAF's principle attack aircraft and if it was withdrawn from service (not long after they were all upgraded), the RAF might as well cease to exist - in my opinion.
The Tornado F3s are being withdrawn anyway to make way for the Typhoon.
I note that the article is in the Mail so it may be total fiction.
I presume you are referring to the Tornado GR4 and not the Tornado F3.
The Tornado GR4 is the RAF's principle attack aircraft and if it was withdrawn from service (not long after they were all upgraded), the RAF might as well cease to exist - in my opinion.
The Tornado F3s are being withdrawn anyway to make way for the Typhoon.
I note that the article is in the Mail so it may be total fiction.
Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 30th July 08:39
Very capable matured aircraft, proven and effective, all the framework for them is in place, crews are experienced and able to extract the best from it, recently upgraded. Currently on ops providing invaluable support for the guys on the ground.
Of course they will ground the fleet, especially now Trident is to be funded from the MOD budget.
Only good thing to come out of this would be to have Typhoon deployed on ops in a CAS role which might shut the army up about it being a cold war interceptor and a waste of money.
Of course they will ground the fleet, especially now Trident is to be funded from the MOD budget.
Only good thing to come out of this would be to have Typhoon deployed on ops in a CAS role which might shut the army up about it being a cold war interceptor and a waste of money.
How would they fight against government cuts? They can argue their case either united or individually, but ultimately the Govt will do what it wants.
I think for a bankrupt nation up to its ears in debt we'll have to get used to the idea of a token defence force, and stop trying to police the world that doesn't want to be policed.
I think for a bankrupt nation up to its ears in debt we'll have to get used to the idea of a token defence force, and stop trying to police the world that doesn't want to be policed.
There are discssions about this on the PPRUNE forum, which is worth joining if you have an interest in aviation.
You may not have noticed but the country is broke. Standby for some very harsh choices to have to be made. The defence budget is under threat to the tune of a 20-25%; worse than that if the replacement for Trident has to be funded out of the (new, smaller) defence budget in the future rather than being a seperate capital cost as has been the case up to now. If that comes to pass then CAS will have to decide between Tornado GR4 and Harrier GR9 & probably make other similar difficult decisions (Nimrod/ AWACS/ Red Arrows/ RAF Regt etc etc), as will the Service Chiefs from the oher 2 Services.
The early retirement of GR4 is reportedly forecast to save £7Bn compared to the saving of £1Bn if the GR9s are cut. I'm assuming that £7Bn figure includes cuts in the cost or rear seat aircrew training. Sure a cut in GR4 means that we have lost a big capability but we will not lose the ability for Ground Attack in total. The GR9 can provide a limited GA platform (and performed well in 'Stan - the only major GA Op required at te moment)whilst there is also Sub launched Tomahawk for long range precision strike. The GR9 is also more easily deployed than the GR4 with a lower impact deployment footprint & logs support train.
If the GR9 goes then we do completely lose a complete capbility, in that we'll no longer have the ability to operate FW jets at Sea at all. This is not at all desirable as it will be difficult to resurrect this experience/ capability when (if) the 2 new carriers are built (and at the moment that has to bethe planning assumption because that's what the Govt says is going to happen).
To repeat, then, we have to accept that some massive & harsh cuts are about to be made & whilst not desirable we have to work out what capabilities we are going to bin with least adverse impact. The GR9 can do some of the GR4s job but the GR4 cannot do the one thing that the GR9 has to do - deploy to Sea.
You may not have noticed but the country is broke. Standby for some very harsh choices to have to be made. The defence budget is under threat to the tune of a 20-25%; worse than that if the replacement for Trident has to be funded out of the (new, smaller) defence budget in the future rather than being a seperate capital cost as has been the case up to now. If that comes to pass then CAS will have to decide between Tornado GR4 and Harrier GR9 & probably make other similar difficult decisions (Nimrod/ AWACS/ Red Arrows/ RAF Regt etc etc), as will the Service Chiefs from the oher 2 Services.
The early retirement of GR4 is reportedly forecast to save £7Bn compared to the saving of £1Bn if the GR9s are cut. I'm assuming that £7Bn figure includes cuts in the cost or rear seat aircrew training. Sure a cut in GR4 means that we have lost a big capability but we will not lose the ability for Ground Attack in total. The GR9 can provide a limited GA platform (and performed well in 'Stan - the only major GA Op required at te moment)whilst there is also Sub launched Tomahawk for long range precision strike. The GR9 is also more easily deployed than the GR4 with a lower impact deployment footprint & logs support train.
If the GR9 goes then we do completely lose a complete capbility, in that we'll no longer have the ability to operate FW jets at Sea at all. This is not at all desirable as it will be difficult to resurrect this experience/ capability when (if) the 2 new carriers are built (and at the moment that has to bethe planning assumption because that's what the Govt says is going to happen).
To repeat, then, we have to accept that some massive & harsh cuts are about to be made & whilst not desirable we have to work out what capabilities we are going to bin with least adverse impact. The GR9 can do some of the GR4s job but the GR4 cannot do the one thing that the GR9 has to do - deploy to Sea.
Edited by andy97 on Friday 30th July 11:19
Why all the fuss about the Tornado being phased out/scrapped? We've got a massive fleet of Typhoons sitting around picking their a** doing nothing. Shirley these should be doing the job anyway?
Didn't the MOD sign off the Typhoon as ready for operations following testing in the states last year? Seems to be plenty of images of them tooled up with a moosive amounts of laserguided bombs doing the rounds on the net.
Question: Has the Typhoon been used in anger/ live operations yet (and I don't mean that Russian bear escort duty thing, a pigeon could intercept one of those!!! )
Didn't the MOD sign off the Typhoon as ready for operations following testing in the states last year? Seems to be plenty of images of them tooled up with a moosive amounts of laserguided bombs doing the rounds on the net.
Question: Has the Typhoon been used in anger/ live operations yet (and I don't mean that Russian bear escort duty thing, a pigeon could intercept one of those!!! )
disco1 said:
Why all the fuss about the Tornado being phased out/scrapped? We've got a massive fleet of Typhoons sitting around picking their a** doing nothing. Shirley these should be doing the job anyway?
Didn't the MOD sign off the Typhoon as ready for operations following testing in the states last year? Seems to be plenty of images of them tooled up with a moosive amounts of laserguided bombs doing the rounds on the net.
Question: Has the Typhoon been used in anger/ live operations yet (and I don't mean that Russian bear escort duty thing, a pigeon could intercept one of those!!! )
Your:Didn't the MOD sign off the Typhoon as ready for operations following testing in the states last year? Seems to be plenty of images of them tooled up with a moosive amounts of laserguided bombs doing the rounds on the net.
Question: Has the Typhoon been used in anger/ live operations yet (and I don't mean that Russian bear escort duty thing, a pigeon could intercept one of those!!! )
Point 1 - Yes
Point 2 - Yes but only in the Air Defence role. Typhoon has no real GA capability yet &, I understand, requires sgnificant upgrades to its Nav-Attack systms to allow it to take on a GA role. These upgrades are planned & were always planned to come later in the procurement programme (maybe with the intro in to service of Tranche 3 - I'm not sure - followed by a retrofit of Tranche 1 & 2). You might think that Tornado GR4 could be withdrawn and replaced by upgraged Typhoon with the appropriate capability but the funds to bring forward that capability on Typhhoon are not in place & we probably can't afford to spend the money required to bring that capability forward. The images with LGBs etc are PR BS for now.
Point 3 - No
Typhoon will not be purchased in the numbers to sufficiently replace Tornado GR4s. Also, Typhoon will have two roles, air defence and ground attack.
If all the Tornado GR4s are retired you will have half the number of aircraft trying to do the job of the current ground attack aircraft AS WELL AS fulfilling their air defence role (don't forget, they are already expected to do the job in air defence of a larger number of Tornado F3s),
If all the Tornado GR4s are retired you will have half the number of aircraft trying to do the job of the current ground attack aircraft AS WELL AS fulfilling their air defence role (don't forget, they are already expected to do the job in air defence of a larger number of Tornado F3s),
Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 30th July 15:35
all i can say is this will be a major blow for the RAF and will pretty much eliminate any offensive strike capability this country has until tranche 3 EF and the F-35 come along (which is a debate in itself)...
also i personally have been involved in a Tornado upgrade programme, which wasn't cheap... seems like a waste of money to upgrade the GR4s to see them through the next 10 years just to ground them all...
also i personally have been involved in a Tornado upgrade programme, which wasn't cheap... seems like a waste of money to upgrade the GR4s to see them through the next 10 years just to ground them all...
Without wanting to reiterate what has already been said, something has to go. The costings that have been quoted for scrapping harrier or tornado (1bn vs 7bn) are misleading. Firstly, I assume they are projected cuts over the total lifespan(as originally planned) which had the gr9 out of service in 2018 and the gr4 in 2025. Obviously, both of these dates are now almost fiction, but the cost saving won't have reflected this. Also, it will obviously save more scrapping the gr4; the fleet is 5 times the size of the harrier fleet.
This raises the point of what capability is being lost. As mentioned above, the gr9 has proved its worth in stan, doing pretty much what it was designed to do. The gr4 is now filling the role to much the same effect. However, the gr9 force couldn't sustain anything more than 8 jets deployed on ops at any time, probably couldn't even do that now. Howver the gr4 arguably still has enough numbers to fulfill a larger deployment.
IMHO the harrier will never go back to afghan, so the tornado will have to stay in the immediate future if only to see out the current det.
The way I see it, if Tornado goes, the UK will lose its main method of prosecuting offensive operations overseas. Harrier will remain effectively to keep the FAA current in VSTOL ops, probably to retire before (if?)JCA finally arrives. Conversly if gr9 goes, the navy will have the devils job hanging onto the current carriers, let alone getting new ones.
Every option will be under examination by the government, which is likely where the current spat of rumours has come from, especially given the silly season in the media.
This raises the point of what capability is being lost. As mentioned above, the gr9 has proved its worth in stan, doing pretty much what it was designed to do. The gr4 is now filling the role to much the same effect. However, the gr9 force couldn't sustain anything more than 8 jets deployed on ops at any time, probably couldn't even do that now. Howver the gr4 arguably still has enough numbers to fulfill a larger deployment.
IMHO the harrier will never go back to afghan, so the tornado will have to stay in the immediate future if only to see out the current det.
The way I see it, if Tornado goes, the UK will lose its main method of prosecuting offensive operations overseas. Harrier will remain effectively to keep the FAA current in VSTOL ops, probably to retire before (if?)JCA finally arrives. Conversly if gr9 goes, the navy will have the devils job hanging onto the current carriers, let alone getting new ones.
Every option will be under examination by the government, which is likely where the current spat of rumours has come from, especially given the silly season in the media.
Edited by GGibbo on Friday 30th July 17:36
andy97 said:
disco1 said:
Why all the fuss about the Tornado being phased out/scrapped? We've got a massive fleet of Typhoons sitting around picking their a** doing nothing. Shirley these should be doing the job anyway?
Didn't the MOD sign off the Typhoon as ready for operations following testing in the states last year? Seems to be plenty of images of them tooled up with a moosive amounts of laserguided bombs doing the rounds on the net.
Question: Has the Typhoon been used in anger/ live operations yet (and I don't mean that Russian bear escort duty thing, a pigeon could intercept one of those!!! )
Your:Didn't the MOD sign off the Typhoon as ready for operations following testing in the states last year? Seems to be plenty of images of them tooled up with a moosive amounts of laserguided bombs doing the rounds on the net.
Question: Has the Typhoon been used in anger/ live operations yet (and I don't mean that Russian bear escort duty thing, a pigeon could intercept one of those!!! )
Point 1 - Yes
Point 2 - Yes but only in the Air Defence role. Typhoon has no real GA capability yet &, I understand, requires sgnificant upgrades to its Nav-Attack systms to allow it to take on a GA role. These upgrades are planned & were always planned to come later in the procurement programme (maybe with the intro in to service of Tranche 3 - I'm not sure - followed by a retrofit of Tranche 1 & 2). You might think that Tornado GR4 could be withdrawn and replaced by upgraged Typhoon with the appropriate capability but the funds to bring forward that capability on Typhhoon are not in place & we probably can't afford to spend the money required to bring that capability forward. The images with LGBs etc are PR BS for now.
Point 3 - No
Point two - they were ready to be depoyed in a CAS role in Afghanistan last year, they have CAS ability and all the ground controllers that have worked on exercise with them have been very very impressed with their ability in the CAS role. Argentina getting uppity pushed the Afghanistan deployment back and expedited the deployment to the Falklands.
Point three- Again they havent been used in action, no need for them to be yet anyway. Although I do think some people would only be happy if they were flying ops every day and they would still be called a cold war relic and useless grey pointy thing. If you wanted the Tranche two aircraft in service already with the RAF and with a CAS capability could be deployed to Afghanistan and dropping bombs by next week.
And escorting the bears is easy enough, intercepting a blackjack at mach two far enough out to be worthwhile is slightly harder.
with regards to the SDSR, everything is being considered from cancelling the QE carriers to cancelling JSF to closing stations.
the press are simply reporting rumours. no one knows what is going to have to make way to balance the budges as yet although there are some obvious choices. scrapping tornados is an option, but it is just that, an option.... if you read the article it is all supposition and there is no story.
I might as well spend an hour telling you about the car I might but tomorrow....
the press are simply reporting rumours. no one knows what is going to have to make way to balance the budges as yet although there are some obvious choices. scrapping tornados is an option, but it is just that, an option.... if you read the article it is all supposition and there is no story.
I might as well spend an hour telling you about the car I might but tomorrow....
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