Mis-sold a phone contract - best course of action?
Discussion
** Now resolved; see my latest post for an update! **
Hi folks, my mum's o/h was recently contacted by a mobile phone reseller with whom he previously acquired a phone (it used to be his work phone, he was allowed to keep it when he retired). Due to health reasons, Mum has been having to help more and more with managing his affairs and taking on a bit more of a 'carer' role. Part of this was the decision to change his mobile for one that's easier to use - he has Parkinsons and his dexterity is declining; he has trouble with the small buttons on his Nokia. Amongst many other symptoms of Parkinsons are mild confusion and decreased communication skills - he's not able to track conversations as easily as he did. Mum knew his phone was out of contract and we started looking at the new Doro handsets as they have simple, large and clear buttons, along with reduced menu complexity; perfect. A call to Orange by my mum revealed that he was on a new 24-month contract at around £32/month which commenced back in May, and couldn't be altered.
The reseller informed me that all calls are recorded - brilliant! I requested that they send me the call recording so that I could hear exactly what was said. To be frank I was shocked by the way the 'salesperson' conducted the call. Right from the word go, it was clear that Don was confused and not 'with it'. At no point did the salesperson clearly identify himself as being from the reseller, he simply said 'Orange' a lot. As the call progresses, the salesperson tells Don that they can send him a new phone '..as you're happy with Orange..', and took a delivery address. Eventually, he says, "...you'll be with Orange again for 24 months...' - at no point does he say, "This is a new 24-month contract. You won't be able to amend the monthly price-plan for a minimum of 12 months." He DOES say that if Don doesn't like the phone, he can cancel and send it back for a fee of £19.
I've uploaded a redacted clip of the call to Youtube; the silent parts are personally-identifiable information such as postcode and name etc. Can someone with more knowledge than me tell me whether they think that the way this was sold was correct? You can hear hat Don was clearly confused, it wasn't made clear that this was a new contract of 24 months and that the tariff can't be altered for 12 months, the contract itself is pretty disgusting (Nokia 6303 on 24-month £35/mo tariff...? Have a word!) and surely distance selling regs allow a cooling-off period of 7 days within which it is free to return goods?
Finally, no paperwork ever appeared - it was emailed over at Mum's request when she found out who the reseller are. Orange were sympathetic but unable to act. We bought a Doro handset on the weekend on PAYG and the salesperson in the shop looked pretty shocked when I told him what the reseller had tied Don into.
Here's the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k7G2Tlectk
I'm aware that there's a degree of anger and indignation on my part, are we likely to get anywhere with trying to cancel this contract?
Hi folks, my mum's o/h was recently contacted by a mobile phone reseller with whom he previously acquired a phone (it used to be his work phone, he was allowed to keep it when he retired). Due to health reasons, Mum has been having to help more and more with managing his affairs and taking on a bit more of a 'carer' role. Part of this was the decision to change his mobile for one that's easier to use - he has Parkinsons and his dexterity is declining; he has trouble with the small buttons on his Nokia. Amongst many other symptoms of Parkinsons are mild confusion and decreased communication skills - he's not able to track conversations as easily as he did. Mum knew his phone was out of contract and we started looking at the new Doro handsets as they have simple, large and clear buttons, along with reduced menu complexity; perfect. A call to Orange by my mum revealed that he was on a new 24-month contract at around £32/month which commenced back in May, and couldn't be altered.
The reseller informed me that all calls are recorded - brilliant! I requested that they send me the call recording so that I could hear exactly what was said. To be frank I was shocked by the way the 'salesperson' conducted the call. Right from the word go, it was clear that Don was confused and not 'with it'. At no point did the salesperson clearly identify himself as being from the reseller, he simply said 'Orange' a lot. As the call progresses, the salesperson tells Don that they can send him a new phone '..as you're happy with Orange..', and took a delivery address. Eventually, he says, "...you'll be with Orange again for 24 months...' - at no point does he say, "This is a new 24-month contract. You won't be able to amend the monthly price-plan for a minimum of 12 months." He DOES say that if Don doesn't like the phone, he can cancel and send it back for a fee of £19.
I've uploaded a redacted clip of the call to Youtube; the silent parts are personally-identifiable information such as postcode and name etc. Can someone with more knowledge than me tell me whether they think that the way this was sold was correct? You can hear hat Don was clearly confused, it wasn't made clear that this was a new contract of 24 months and that the tariff can't be altered for 12 months, the contract itself is pretty disgusting (Nokia 6303 on 24-month £35/mo tariff...? Have a word!) and surely distance selling regs allow a cooling-off period of 7 days within which it is free to return goods?
Finally, no paperwork ever appeared - it was emailed over at Mum's request when she found out who the reseller are. Orange were sympathetic but unable to act. We bought a Doro handset on the weekend on PAYG and the salesperson in the shop looked pretty shocked when I told him what the reseller had tied Don into.
Here's the clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k7G2Tlectk
I'm aware that there's a degree of anger and indignation on my part, are we likely to get anywhere with trying to cancel this contract?
Edited by Funk on Monday 9th August 20:21
Edited by Funk on Wednesday 18th August 15:35
I would suggest a polite letter explaining your situation (as you have done here) and ask them to rescind the contract. Consider stopping payments to them whilst this is resolved and inform them that you've done so.
If they refuse to help ask them if they've listened to the recording and how they think a court would see it!
It reminds me of the scammers you see on those "from hell" TV programmes
Hope you get sorted ok.
If they refuse to help ask them if they've listened to the recording and how they think a court would see it!
It reminds me of the scammers you see on those "from hell" TV programmes
Hope you get sorted ok.
Three legal aspects here that are pretty fundamental:
Firstly, someone of unsound mind cannot enter into a contract.
Secondly, there must be a genuine meeting of minds. Both parties must be clear as to who they are dealing with as a fundamental part of that.
Lastly, the Distance Selling Regs mean that not only must a telephone call be followed up with the written terms, these written terms must make clear the customer's legal right to cancel.
My tact here would be to speak to the MD of the company outlining these things and asking for what it is you want. That should do it. Failing that, a warning of passing the matter and the call to Trading Standards or Watchdog should get a positive outcome.
Failing all that, there is the legal route but to be frank it should be sorted before then.
Firstly, someone of unsound mind cannot enter into a contract.
Secondly, there must be a genuine meeting of minds. Both parties must be clear as to who they are dealing with as a fundamental part of that.
Lastly, the Distance Selling Regs mean that not only must a telephone call be followed up with the written terms, these written terms must make clear the customer's legal right to cancel.
My tact here would be to speak to the MD of the company outlining these things and asking for what it is you want. That should do it. Failing that, a warning of passing the matter and the call to Trading Standards or Watchdog should get a positive outcome.
Failing all that, there is the legal route but to be frank it should be sorted before then.
The Riddler said:
Would this company be called a word similar to 'Angle' and be based in Bradford?
If so I worked for them for a short while and was disgusted by their tactics and 'scripts' this company dealt purely with Orange contracts.
No. The name of the business is mentioned in the call.. Not surprised you didn't hear it though. It's like SEO companies who call up saying they're 'from Google'. It's designed to get the 'trusted' name in there.If so I worked for them for a short while and was disgusted by their tactics and 'scripts' this company dealt purely with Orange contracts.
Lonely said:
I would suggest a polite letter explaining your situation (as you have done here) and ask them to rescind the contract. Consider stopping payments to them whilst this is resolved and inform them that you've done so.
If they refuse to help ask them if they've listened to the recording and how they think a court would see it!
It reminds me of the scammers you see on those "from hell" TV programmes
Hope you get sorted ok.
Thanks, that's pretty much what I was thinking. I just wanted to hear from those who're not subject to the red mist..If they refuse to help ask them if they've listened to the recording and how they think a court would see it!
It reminds me of the scammers you see on those "from hell" TV programmes
Hope you get sorted ok.
JustinP1 said:
Three legal aspects here that are pretty fundamental:
Firstly, someone of unsound mind cannot enter into a contract.
Secondly, there must be a genuine meeting of minds. Both parties must be clear as to who they are dealing with as a fundamental part of that.
Lastly, the Distance Selling Regs mean that not only must a telephone call be followed up with the written terms, these written terms must make clear the customer's legal right to cancel.
My tact here would be to speak to the MD of the company outlining these things and asking for what it is you want. That should do it. Failing that, a warning of passing the matter and the call to Trading Standards or Watchdog should get a positive outcome.
Failing all that, there is the legal route but to be frank it should be sorted before then.
Interesting, thanks Justin. I'm not sure how one would determine 'of sound mind'. Meeting of the minds? I don't think that happened. Even after Don was told he'd be sent a new phone, he asked when the end of his contract was. He clearly didn't register what was being said, and wasn't able to clarify. He struggles when put on the spot, especially by people talking fast. I'm also confident that DSR weren't followed, unless Don received something and didn't read it or just filed it. He's pretty sure he never received any follow-up documentation.Firstly, someone of unsound mind cannot enter into a contract.
Secondly, there must be a genuine meeting of minds. Both parties must be clear as to who they are dealing with as a fundamental part of that.
Lastly, the Distance Selling Regs mean that not only must a telephone call be followed up with the written terms, these written terms must make clear the customer's legal right to cancel.
My tact here would be to speak to the MD of the company outlining these things and asking for what it is you want. That should do it. Failing that, a warning of passing the matter and the call to Trading Standards or Watchdog should get a positive outcome.
Failing all that, there is the legal route but to be frank it should be sorted before then.
What's interesting was that the company themselves supplied the audio at my request; I'm not sure they had any choice, but they must realise that it presents them in a very bad way..?
Bottom line then - I should take this further in as polite a manner as possible..
Justin has highlighted the 3 main points but I am unsure whether you can play the unsound mind/capacity card here because he actually sounds not too bad - just because he because people don;t ask questions don't mean they dont understand
You do have a way forward with agreement though as clearly he didn't seem to know he had agreed to a new 24month contract and seller was sly (worth reporting to TS as they were being misleading).
IIRC the cooling off period under DSR gives you 7 days from when they send you the info of how to cancel and keep running for 3 months (so the max time you can have is 3 months and 7 days) - therefore it is critical to find out when the contract was concluded and what paperwork you recieved and from whom.
You do have a way forward with agreement though as clearly he didn't seem to know he had agreed to a new 24month contract and seller was sly (worth reporting to TS as they were being misleading).
IIRC the cooling off period under DSR gives you 7 days from when they send you the info of how to cancel and keep running for 3 months (so the max time you can have is 3 months and 7 days) - therefore it is critical to find out when the contract was concluded and what paperwork you recieved and from whom.
Mojooo said:
Justin has highlighted the 3 main points but I am unsure whether you can play the unsound mind/capacity card here because he actually sounds not too bad - just because he because people don;t ask questions don't mean they dont understand
You do have a way forward with agreement though as clearly he didn't seem to know he had agreed to a new 24month contract and seller was sly (worth reporting to TS as they were being misleading).
IIRC the cooling off period under DSR gives you 7 days from when they send you the info of how to cancel and keep running for 3 months (so the max time you can have is 3 months and 7 days) - therefore it is critical to find out when the contract was concluded and what paperwork you recieved and from whom.
I agree with the 'sound of mind' aspect; he's just not as sharp as he once was and gets confused easily. I've posted a while back about this elsewhere asking for ways to help him and Mum with it. I would say that certainly from the intro he sounds very confused; just because he then 'appears' to sound ok doesn't mean he's actually understanding what's being said. He's still in the phase where he's embarrassed by it and doesn't want people to know he's struggling.You do have a way forward with agreement though as clearly he didn't seem to know he had agreed to a new 24month contract and seller was sly (worth reporting to TS as they were being misleading).
IIRC the cooling off period under DSR gives you 7 days from when they send you the info of how to cancel and keep running for 3 months (so the max time you can have is 3 months and 7 days) - therefore it is critical to find out when the contract was concluded and what paperwork you recieved and from whom.
I think there's enough there with the selling and clarity of contract terms to void it without having to play any 'illness card'.
CEO Email Tom.Alexander@orange.co.uk - I have had better success with that then speaking to Orange Customer Services.
Obviously it is not dealt with by him, but by a level of staff that the minions listen to. I was told that reports get passed to the Directors. Would you want to be the reseller?
Worth a shot.
Obviously it is not dealt with by him, but by a level of staff that the minions listen to. I was told that reports get passed to the Directors. Would you want to be the reseller?
Worth a shot.
That is pretty poor behaviour on the part of the salesman. I couldn't get what the company name was despite listening several times. I suspect that if you knew it already you could tell what it was, but from just listening, what he mumbles could easily have been his surname. He then immediately emphasises the word 'Orange', and it would be very easy to get the impression you were talking to someone from Orange.
I hate sales techniques like this, especially the way he starts talking as though you should already know what he is talking about. He also doesn't at any point mention that he is renewing the contract - he says 'just checking you are happy with Orange - you happy to stay still?' He then immediately says 'we'll add another 10% discount to that' and goes on to give the price etc. 'We'll get you one of those out free of charge'. It's only later that there is any mention, and even then only in passing, of 'another 24 months'. The word 'contract' is not mentioned at all.
It would be very easy for someone in perfect health to become confused by that, let alone someone with a condition that affects their thinking. I'd be pushing Orange very hard to release that contract or at the very least renegotiate it.
I hate sales techniques like this, especially the way he starts talking as though you should already know what he is talking about. He also doesn't at any point mention that he is renewing the contract - he says 'just checking you are happy with Orange - you happy to stay still?' He then immediately says 'we'll add another 10% discount to that' and goes on to give the price etc. 'We'll get you one of those out free of charge'. It's only later that there is any mention, and even then only in passing, of 'another 24 months'. The word 'contract' is not mentioned at all.
It would be very easy for someone in perfect health to become confused by that, let alone someone with a condition that affects their thinking. I'd be pushing Orange very hard to release that contract or at the very least renegotiate it.
Funk said:
What's interesting was that the company themselves supplied the audio at my request; I'm not sure they had any choice, ...
Well, as you were not a party to the call, and personal data was clearly included, there is the possibility that in supplying it they have breached the DPA. However, it could turn on whether the recording actually constitutes 'Personal Data' within the Act. That is likely to be determined by the manner in which they index the recordings.What type of information did you supply for them to identify the recording?
Nevertheless, it might be worth mentioning in your communication with the company that you will refer this to the ICO for an assessment.
Streaky
streaky said:
Funk said:
What's interesting was that the company themselves supplied the audio at my request; I'm not sure they had any choice, ...
Well, as you were not a party to the call, and personal data was clearly included, there is the possibility that in supplying it they have breached the DPA. However, it could turn on whether the recording actually constitutes 'Personal Data' within the Act. That is likely to be determined by the manner in which they index the recordings.What type of information did you supply for them to identify the recording?
Nevertheless, it might be worth mentioning in your communication with the company that you will refer this to the ICO for an assessment.
Streaky
Have a read
If they haven't sent a written contract yet you still may be in with a chance of resolving this with the minimum of fuss.....
Barsteward mobile phone peddlers!
If they haven't sent a written contract yet you still may be in with a chance of resolving this with the minimum of fuss.....
Barsteward mobile phone peddlers!
davepoth said:
I'd just stop paying, send the phone back, and wait for them to put in court papers.
Yes I did this 10 years ago when the salesperson lied about the roaming costs and I only learned of the inflated charges at my first bill. I wrote to the reseller outlining my complaint and advising that I would cancel and requesting disposal advice for the handset.They threatened court etc etc. They did nothing and the only downside was threats and letters from various debt collection agencies who had bought the bundled debts from one another which after a while I learned to bin and ignore.
recording said:
Are you happy with orange, are you happy to stay still?
Is the 'hook' recording said:
Don: "I'm happy with orange"
Is a vague acceptance of the 'hook' requiring confirmation...Thus...recording said:
"You'd like to stay still"
Repeat of the 'offer' of renewing/continuing contract with Orangerecording said:
Don: "Yeh"
Bait taken.
Don has (unwittingly) agreed to accept a new contract with Orange
recording said:
"We'd like to keep you".
Reeled in, landed and prepared for the table. It's worth noting that for future reference if anyone else gets these types of calls, be sure to make it understood and keep telling them at several points during the conversation, that you are " not agreeing to any contract nor upgrade over the telephone".
Once you get that statement in I can almost guarantee the call won't last beyond the second repetition.
oldsoak said:
recording said:
Are you happy with orange, are you happy to stay still?
Is the 'hook' recording said:
Don: "I'm happy with orange"
Is a vague acceptance of the 'hook' requiring confirmation...Thus...recording said:
"You'd like to stay still"
Repeat of the 'offer' of renewing/continuing contract with Orangerecording said:
Don: "Yeh"
Bait taken.
Don has (unwittingly) agreed to accept a new contract with Orange
recording said:
"We'd like to keep you".
Reeled in, landed and prepared for the table. It's worth noting that for future reference if anyone else gets these types of calls, be sure to make it understood and keep telling them at several points during the conversation, that you are " not agreeing to any contract nor upgrade over the telephone".
Once you get that statement in I can almost guarantee the call won't last beyond the second repetition.
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