Caterham v Westfield - Whats the difference??
Discussion
Sam_68 said:
Everyone who doesn't share my opinion is an idiot.
R500's are rubbish
My cars are better than yours.
Until Sam showed up, this was a great, positive thread about the general love of all things light and 7-ish. R500's are rubbish
My cars are better than yours.
Sam - I see your opinion, and counter it with mine - anyone who has a massive chip on their shoulder that says "People who do not share the same opinion as me" are somehow inferior is a tosser.
Sam_68 said:
GetCarter said:
...so, tell me what is more interesting than an R500
Ooooh, lots of things. I can't honestly think of much that isn't more interesting than an R500; as far as the genre goes, it's utterly conventional to the point of tedium. I can't think of a single interesting or technically innovative thing about it.
But if you want some alternative ideas:
...The Westfield FW400 offers pretty much identical performance, better steering feel and is much more technically interesting. You'd struggle to find one, though.
...The Westfield Eleven has much purer, better handling (and, incidentally, is much closer in feel to the original Lotus Seven than anything Caterham has built).
....LCC Rocket
... Dax Rush with CC&R suspension and a turbo bike engine
... Lotus Elise/Exige; technically much more interesting, better steering feel.
...Lotus Elan; better gearchange, better handling, better steering feel.
...Caparo, if you like really mental performance
The list would go on and on.
Perhaps we should start a Wiki on 'what's more intersting than a Caterham'?
"Technical innovation" is great for measurebating at the pub, but it doesn't necessarily make a car more fun or exciting to drive. The lack of innovation, and the fact that it is still relevant, is precisely what is so appealing about the Caterham. A Nissan GTR is full of technical innovation and I don't care how fast it is, it is no where near as fun as a Caterham.
As to some of your other points: I had a Lotus Elan along with my Caterham and the handling on the Elan was not necessarily better, though it would depend on what your criteria is. One is sharp and precise and the other (the Elan) is dainty in its handling. And it is same for the steering, the Elans steering is light, the 7 is aggressive, precise and and slightly heavy, both are great in terms of feedback. Where the Elan gear change had a nice snick into gear that feels nice, it was also a bit fragile and slow. The Caterham has a firm and positive rifle bolt action to it that is very pleasing as well, I like it equally as much.
That said, while my Elan was beautiful and fun, the Caterham is an E-ticket ride, the Elan got sold
I've also had an Elise, "technical interest" aside, the Caterham makes it feel like an SUV, I don't think the steering is better, lighter perhaps.
Also had a Westfield Eleven on loan for a bit. It was absolutely lovely, actually went looking for one afterwards but decided it was more or less a duplicate of the Elan and like the Elan it was no E-ticket ride.
Only got to check out Jay Leno's LCC Rocket, looks really neat, would love to have one, but having driven motorcycle engined cars before, screaming along at 12k+rpm's all the time is tiring.
Caparo is unobtanium and unusable
Ariel Atom, you forgot this major player. Would love to have one, looks fabulous and is a rocketship, but by all accounts the handling is tricky
Anyhow, the point is while you could argue that these other cars are more interesting in terms of specification, they are not any better, only different.
Sam_68 said:
GetCarter said:
So first up... you've not driven an R500.
I'm afraid 'R's' are not R500's
Yes. I have. Sorry, I'll type it in full next time.I'm afraid 'R's' are not R500's
As for saying "I can't honestly think of much that isn't more interesting than an R500" on a Caterham forum (apart from being an utterly ridiculous thing to say) can only mean one thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
Caterhams and westfields? Pah! Heres my Dax:-
OP do yourself a favour and open your mind further then these two. By all means do NOT dismiss either and go and drive them and drive the different engines and chassis that both marques offer. Do yourself a favour and look elsewhere to though.
You talk to a Caterham owner, their car is the best, (obviously!). Talk to a Westy owner and youll get the same answers, (obviously!). Talk to me and Ill tell you that I think the Rush is by far the best looking '7' out there and that mine is better then anyone elses because I built it, (including all the carbon work, (pre-preg obviously!!!!)). However none of the people you talk to are YOU, only you know whats best for you, no one else does. You also have to remind yourself, (honestly), what you intend to use the car for as this makes a big differnece as to what sort of engine you should go for.
Thats my ten penneth for what its worth! Enjoy your cars guys regardless of where it came from or what badge it wears.
Ian
OP do yourself a favour and open your mind further then these two. By all means do NOT dismiss either and go and drive them and drive the different engines and chassis that both marques offer. Do yourself a favour and look elsewhere to though.
You talk to a Caterham owner, their car is the best, (obviously!). Talk to a Westy owner and youll get the same answers, (obviously!). Talk to me and Ill tell you that I think the Rush is by far the best looking '7' out there and that mine is better then anyone elses because I built it, (including all the carbon work, (pre-preg obviously!!!!)). However none of the people you talk to are YOU, only you know whats best for you, no one else does. You also have to remind yourself, (honestly), what you intend to use the car for as this makes a big differnece as to what sort of engine you should go for.
Thats my ten penneth for what its worth! Enjoy your cars guys regardless of where it came from or what badge it wears.
Ian
Indeed. Always loved the Dax.
Not true that one always think's ones own car is the best though - some of us are big enough to know that there are better cars out there, just like there are better drivers. I used to think I was pretty good driver untill I met some of the really talentd guys on track!
Not true that one always think's ones own car is the best though - some of us are big enough to know that there are better cars out there, just like there are better drivers. I used to think I was pretty good driver untill I met some of the really talentd guys on track!
Atomic Gibbon said:
Sam_68 said:
Everyone who doesn't share my opinion is an idiot.
R500's are rubbish
My cars are better than yours.
Until Sam showed up, this was a great, positive thread about the general love of all things light and 7-ish. R500's are rubbish
My cars are better than yours.
Sam - I see your opinion, and counter it with mine - anyone who has a massive chip on their shoulder that says "People who do not share the same opinion as me" are somehow inferior is a tosser.
This is an entertaining thread! Shall I hold the coats?
As an intending Caterham owner I've read this with interest. I've spoken to or emailed quite a few Caterham/ Westfield/ 7 type owners and listened to what everyone has had to say before deciding what I'm going to buy.
For me, these type of cars are all variations on a theme. Lightweight 2 seaters, many of which having performance to embarrass supercars costing vastly more. What's not to like about any of them?
It's personal choice which one to buy. My choice is an R400 and I'm ordering it in the next couple of weeks.
Mark
As an intending Caterham owner I've read this with interest. I've spoken to or emailed quite a few Caterham/ Westfield/ 7 type owners and listened to what everyone has had to say before deciding what I'm going to buy.
For me, these type of cars are all variations on a theme. Lightweight 2 seaters, many of which having performance to embarrass supercars costing vastly more. What's not to like about any of them?
It's personal choice which one to buy. My choice is an R400 and I'm ordering it in the next couple of weeks.
Mark
2slo said:
This is an entertaining thread! Shall I hold the coats?
As an intending Caterham owner I've read this with interest. I've spoken to or emailed quite a few Caterham/ Westfield/ 7 type owners and listened to what everyone has had to say before deciding what I'm going to buy.
For me, these type of cars are all variations on a theme. Lightweight 2 seaters, many of which having performance to embarrass supercars costing vastly more. What's not to like about any of them?
It's personal choice which one to buy. My choice is an R400 and I'm ordering it in the next couple of weeks.
Mark
One thing you should ask Caterham before ordering is 'When is the new R400 coming out and what spec will it be, race car or road car?' - There is one in the pipeline (well reported earlier this year). Might be worth hanging on a few months if the new one is a road version with a decent upgrade (but it may just be the race version that is upgraded)As an intending Caterham owner I've read this with interest. I've spoken to or emailed quite a few Caterham/ Westfield/ 7 type owners and listened to what everyone has had to say before deciding what I'm going to buy.
For me, these type of cars are all variations on a theme. Lightweight 2 seaters, many of which having performance to embarrass supercars costing vastly more. What's not to like about any of them?
It's personal choice which one to buy. My choice is an R400 and I'm ordering it in the next couple of weeks.
Mark
Steve
One thing you should ask Caterham before ordering is 'When is the new R400 coming out and what spec will it be, race car or road car?' - There is one in the pipeline (well reported earlier this year). Might be worth hanging on a few months if the new one is a road version with a decent upgrade (but it may just be the race version that is upgraded)
Believe it or not that was question no. 1 (of about 30) when I was at CC South last week! I spent about two hours with Antony Paine discussing/ sitting in and driving various models. There was complete denial of any change to the R400 in the pipeline and I did doorstep him with the info from here.
Although I'll be ordering very soon I won't be taking delivery until mid June next year so they probably won't build it until 2nd qtr. I'll be watching very carefully for any info about a new model or spec change.
In the meantime however, if anyone knows any more?
Mark.
Believe it or not that was question no. 1 (of about 30) when I was at CC South last week! I spent about two hours with Antony Paine discussing/ sitting in and driving various models. There was complete denial of any change to the R400 in the pipeline and I did doorstep him with the info from here.
Although I'll be ordering very soon I won't be taking delivery until mid June next year so they probably won't build it until 2nd qtr. I'll be watching very carefully for any info about a new model or spec change.
In the meantime however, if anyone knows any more?
Mark.
GetCarter said:
Indeed. Always loved the Dax.
Not true that one always think's ones own car is the best though - some of us are big enough to know that there are better cars out there, just like there are better drivers. I used to think I was pretty good driver untill I met some of the really talentd guys on track!
Not true that one always think's ones own car is the best though - some of us are big enough to know that there are better cars out there, just like there are better drivers. I used to think I was pretty good driver untill I met some of the really talentd guys on track!
I've never suffered from that problem either, that is thinking that any car (or house, camera, telescope, bike, boat etc) that I own is the best and been blind to its faults. I think that's a rarer phenomenum than most people think, it's just that the proponents of that school of thought are very vocal, much like the "I think I know better than you and I'm going to tell you" sort - no names mentioned!
Sam_68 said:
GetCarter said:
Mostly I'd suggest that they haven't got the cash!
Well, not me, for one - check my profile if you believe that to be the case - but I do take a pragmatic view about what represents value for money and don't throw cash away for the sake of it. For the same reason, I drive a Skoda company car that's worth a fraction of the budget allowance my company gives me, for the simple reason that I see no value in paying extra tax on an Audi badge.
Caterhams, like many things in life, follow the laws of diminishing returns. An R500 is twice the money of a 150bhp car, but the 150bhp car will give you 80% of the thrills on the road/track. Likewise, an R500 is 4 times the money of a used Westfield Megabusa, and will give you 80% of the thrills on the road/track.
So in terms of £ per thrill, the Westfield or low spec Caterham is better value. But for a lot of people, the measure they use is thrills per minute, and I think for this something like the R500 works.
It's like your company car thing - the Audi is the better car, maybe by 10%, but it is 50% more in price. So it may not be better value, but it is better.
To those who think I have some sort of chip on my shoulder or that I hate Caterhams could not be more wrong.
I LIKE CATERHAMS
Is that clear enough for you all?
I agree with everything Rob says, almost word for word, except for the bit that says ‘it’s the best road car I’ve ever driven’ (Really and honestly Rob? Despite the fact that as you acknowledge with your comments about the Elise, the Caterham’s suspension is severely compromised for road use?)
However... there are lots of unique cars out there (indeed, every car has a unique set of talents), and in my experience there are many Cars that are the equal of Caterham. They have a different blend of talents, but are just as good when you add up the scores.
As an example, and to bring the debate back on topic:
SEi Westfields tend to have more compliant suspension, and so (when properly set-up) deliver more progressive handling and better ride in road use. On typical pock-marked British B-roads they can be punted along with greater fluidity and speed. They are also (as much as GC scorns it) significantly better value for money, offer a broader range of engine and gearbox options, and the fibreglass bodywork improves longevity if you prefer driving to polishing.
On the debit side, the steering feel isn’t quite so good as Caterham, the fibreglass bodywork doesn’t look quite so smart, and you need to be more technically competent and knowledgeable to put one together, set it up and maintain it correctly, due to the more variable specifications.
In virtually all other respects, you can’t get a playing card between them…
Obviously, you’re not going to get a particularly balanced view on a marque-specific forum and you will always find the odd really obsessive fanboy who takes offence (usually the sort of person who is so fixated that they create websites in homage to their cars, maintain excel spreadsheets of chassis numbers/production changes, and masturbate to a screensaver of their favourite model every night – kind of the automotive equivalent of the people who stalk celebrities), but I don’t think that should preclude debate.
…and baiting the fanboys is quite good fun, I must admit.
I LIKE CATERHAMS
Is that clear enough for you all?
RobM77 said:
...in response to Sam_68's comments above, I own an Elise and I rate it's steering feel and feedback higher than a Caterham, as well as it's ride over the bumps (which with fully independent suspension is in a different league to a Caterham), in fact it's the best road car I've ever driven. I also race a slicks and wings single seater and yes, they make any Caterham feel slow and ponderous, the CofG is lower, everything's more immediate, more responsive etc. Comparing a single seater to a Caterham is like comparing a Caterham to a BMW Z4. However, there really is nothing out there like a Caterham - they do a very unique thing (and I mean unique in the true sense of the word), and for that I love them to bits.
(edited merely to condense length of post)I agree with everything Rob says, almost word for word, except for the bit that says ‘it’s the best road car I’ve ever driven’ (Really and honestly Rob? Despite the fact that as you acknowledge with your comments about the Elise, the Caterham’s suspension is severely compromised for road use?)
However... there are lots of unique cars out there (indeed, every car has a unique set of talents), and in my experience there are many Cars that are the equal of Caterham. They have a different blend of talents, but are just as good when you add up the scores.
As an example, and to bring the debate back on topic:
SEi Westfields tend to have more compliant suspension, and so (when properly set-up) deliver more progressive handling and better ride in road use. On typical pock-marked British B-roads they can be punted along with greater fluidity and speed. They are also (as much as GC scorns it) significantly better value for money, offer a broader range of engine and gearbox options, and the fibreglass bodywork improves longevity if you prefer driving to polishing.
On the debit side, the steering feel isn’t quite so good as Caterham, the fibreglass bodywork doesn’t look quite so smart, and you need to be more technically competent and knowledgeable to put one together, set it up and maintain it correctly, due to the more variable specifications.
In virtually all other respects, you can’t get a playing card between them…
Obviously, you’re not going to get a particularly balanced view on a marque-specific forum and you will always find the odd really obsessive fanboy who takes offence (usually the sort of person who is so fixated that they create websites in homage to their cars, maintain excel spreadsheets of chassis numbers/production changes, and masturbate to a screensaver of their favourite model every night – kind of the automotive equivalent of the people who stalk celebrities), but I don’t think that should preclude debate.
…and baiting the fanboys is quite good fun, I must admit.
Edited by Sam_68 on Friday 24th September 12:53
Sam_68 said:
To those who think I have some sort of chip on my shoulder or that I hate Caterhams could not be more wrong.
I LIKE CATERHAMS
Is that clear enough for you all?
I agree with everything Rob says, almost word for word, except for the bit that says ‘it’s the best road car I’ve ever driven’ (Really and honestly Rob? Despite the fact that as you acknowledge with your comments about the Elise, the Caterham’s suspension is severely compromised for road use?)
You did understand that I meant my Elise didn't you? Sentence highlighted above. Assuming that you did read that properly, yes, I stand by that statement. I'm not saying the Elise is the best road car ever, because I haven't driven every road car ever made. Out of the cars that I have driven though (and it's a fair old list that stretches a fair way beyond the cars I've owned - I'm happy to list the cars I've driven if you wish, but it might be a long list), the Elise S2 111S is indeed the best I've ever tried, which is why I bought one. Or maybe I should say my favourite? The criteria that I look for in a car might not be the same as other people. Personally, when judging a car for driving pleasure, I generally look for: a good ride with well judged damping; a lack of interefence with steering or course as bumps are crossed; good steering feel and realistic weighting that tells you something about what's going on; nicely weighted and feelsome brakes with a linear and progressive pedal (allowing modification - I have tweaked the Elise's brakes a bit); a responsive, gentle and linear throttle; a good driving position (including modification, if possible - the Elise's driving position was terrible until I modified it); and a chassis that communicates enough to feel a part of the driving experience. I do love Caterhams, and I've described why in words I'm quite happy with in a previous post on this thread.I LIKE CATERHAMS
Is that clear enough for you all?
RobM77 said:
...in response to Sam_68's comments above, I own an Elise and I rate it's steering feel and feedback higher than a Caterham, as well as it's ride over the bumps (which with fully independent suspension is in a different league to a Caterham), in fact it's the best road car I've ever driven. I also race a slicks and wings single seater and yes, they make any Caterham feel slow and ponderous, the CofG is lower, everything's more immediate, more responsive etc. Comparing a single seater to a Caterham is like comparing a Caterham to a BMW Z4. However, there really is nothing out there like a Caterham - they do a very unique thing (and I mean unique in the true sense of the word), and for that I love them to bits.
(edited merely to condense length of post)I agree with everything Rob says, almost word for word, except for the bit that says ‘it’s the best road car I’ve ever driven’ (Really and honestly Rob? Despite the fact that as you acknowledge with your comments about the Elise, the Caterham’s suspension is severely compromised for road use?)
Chris71 said:
That's strange. I used to (and sometimes still do) frequent the TVR part of the forum and there was a Sam who used to turn up on there periodically telling all the TVR owners how rubbish Griffiths were and how any idiot could see the roll centre locations were all wrong. After he'd bought one. It's either a huge coincidence or there's a pattern emerging here.
Yes. absolutely: the pattern is that I'm not so blinkered as to deny that no car is perfect. It tends to be the cars that I've owned, because I'm not so arrogant as to offer detailed comments and analysis on cars that I've only had passing acquaintance with.
Griffith generation TVR's look gorgeous, sound gorgeous and go like the wind in a straight line. But they have some serious handling flaws.
The Lotus Elise (I've owned two and will probably buy another shortly) is wonderful in lots of ways, but has a horrible gearchange, is impractical (for a 'full' production car) and in S1 form had pretty snappy on-the-limit handling and an engine with a propensity to blow head gaskets.
I'm equally happy to be realistic about the cars I own at the moment, if you like: the FW400's gearbox was a big mistake (unbelievably noisy, clunky gear selection even for a dog box) and the detailing simply isn't commensurate with a car that was £40K new (jubilee clips to control end float on the ARB's for example).
The Lotus Elan is stupidly fragile, needs another couple of gears to cope with modern road conditions, and is only moderately quick by modern standards.
The MX5 is great - in many ways standing comparison against the Elan, but with total reliability - but underpowered and so woefully lacking in chassis stiffness that I didn't believe it possible in such a modern car.
Would you like me to go on?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a discussion forum not a fanzine for teenage girls. If someone asks for an opinion, I'll happily give them warts and all.
GetCarter said:
Hey Sam... now it's your turn to answer my question.
Whose R500 did you drive and where?
There are very few of us about and I'd be interested what he or she thinks of their car.
I'll give you a couple of clues. How many Caterham dealers are there in the the UK and where are they located? And if I told you I live on the Cotswold escarpement, with a view down the Severn Vale to the Severn Bridges? Whose R500 did you drive and where?
There are very few of us about and I'd be interested what he or she thinks of their car.
But you didn't answer my question: you told me why you like the R500, not why I should find them interesting; they are basically as conventional and non-innovative as it's possible to get, in this sector of the market. What's actually interesting about them?
And by way of a supplementary question (purely out of interest), what was the Sylva you drove and what specification was it?
Edited by Sam_68 on Friday 24th September 12:55
RobM77 said:
You did understand that I meant my Elise didn't you? Sentence highlighted above. Assuming that you did read that properly, yes, I stand by that statement.
No, my apologies - I misread; I thought it was the Caterham that you were suggesting was the best road car you'd driven.I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you on the Elise; as an overall compromise for road use, it's up there with the best of them... though it still has some fairly major flaws (some of which I itemised above).
And others are probably better if you spend a lot of time doing track days, or a lot of touring.
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