Just bought a Rover 25 with issues ~
Discussion
Fordo said:
MGJohn said:
My favourite Rover engines are the O and T series Turbos ... here's a T-series engine in my 620ti :~
Probably the most underrated engine ....
I'd agree with you there- i still miss my old 420 turbo. Should never of sold it.Probably the most underrated engine ....
The engine had a lot of character, pulled like a train, and never let me down. I think i'd nearly clocked up 140,000 miles. I did a comp test out of curiosity and all cylinders were identical, and were exactly what RAVE said they should be. Various rolling road results also showed the engine to be in fine fettle, putting out far more than it should have been.
It is a very good engine ~ as ordinary car engines go ..? ... lets face it 99%+ of all cars are ordinary ... It does go exceptionally well. Powerful and very reliable .... All mine do any road up.
My son travels on his work and has used his Rover 620ti for over five years now. The car has a hard life but thrives on it. It really earns its keep. Soon to be showing 178,000 miles on the clock and runs as well as my cars with half that mileage. Only major renewal ~ it needed two new differential bearings in its gearbox at about 150,000. That pair of bearings ( steel ball cages - not plastic cages ) cost less than £30 and we had a spare 620ti gearbox with bearings ready anyway so the car was not off the road long. Fixed over the weekend.
MGZRod said:
I never thought I would become a Rover/MG 'defender'
Then I bought a ZR
Then it got HGF the weekend it was bought.
got refund
Bought another
It breaks, a lot.
But they are great cars arent they?
They shouldn't break a lot ... Then I bought a ZR
Then it got HGF the weekend it was bought.
got refund
Bought another
It breaks, a lot.
But they are great cars arent they?
... Mine never do... Why's that I wonder... Luck ?You lucky in Love maybe ...
.
Edited by MGJohn on Wednesday 3rd November 08:43
Again up against the clock. In the hour before dark and with a good wind-up torch, I checked all the various plug connections, hose and fuel lines. Two days ago when I tried to start the car it spun over nicely but, would not fire up. Today I realised that groping about in the dark two days ago, I'd connected the fuel surplus pressure return pipe directly to the fuel supply ... ... Thus, when I heard the fuel pump prime up the system pressure, I assumed all was well...
It was of course ....by pumping fuel straight back into the fuel tank ...
Now I could see what I was doing I sorted the fuel lines, connected the negative terminal on the battery and turned the key..... Fired up immediately.
Moral ... He who gropes about in the dark may get hold of the wrong thinggy ...
After tying a few last minute loose ends whilst the engine was running, including topping up and bleeding the coolant ( only water at the moment as some strong coolant flush will go in tomorrow ) and trying to bleed the system completely, I was delighted to hear the engine settle down to a smooth and healthy sounding idle after a few minutes warming up.
I've taken about twenty pictures of the final work on the car including a 17 second video with the warmed engine running, but, apparently I've exceeded my Photobucket quota this month so cannot add anything to my account for a month.
I will complete this thread when I can arrange the pictures.
Another nice little Rover 25 lives on ... Good eh ....
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... Thus, when I heard the fuel pump prime up the system pressure, I assumed all was well... It was of course ....by pumping fuel straight back into the fuel tank ...
Now I could see what I was doing I sorted the fuel lines, connected the negative terminal on the battery and turned the key..... Fired up immediately.
Moral ... He who gropes about in the dark may get hold of the wrong thinggy ...
After tying a few last minute loose ends whilst the engine was running, including topping up and bleeding the coolant ( only water at the moment as some strong coolant flush will go in tomorrow ) and trying to bleed the system completely, I was delighted to hear the engine settle down to a smooth and healthy sounding idle after a few minutes warming up.
I've taken about twenty pictures of the final work on the car including a 17 second video with the warmed engine running, but, apparently I've exceeded my Photobucket quota this month so cannot add anything to my account for a month.
I will complete this thread when I can arrange the pictures.
Another nice little Rover 25 lives on ... Good eh ....
..
.
Thanks to the help of another PH member ~ tinman0 ~ I can post my pictures using a different method.
This first picture shows the process of using the torque wrench to set the 20 Newton Metres 1st Stage of the through bolt tightening process. There are ten of those bolts which clamp the cylinder head down and must be tightened in the correct sequence. See my aid memoir notes also in the picture.
The 2nd stage involves turning all ten bolts in sequence through 180 degrees. Then finally the 3rd stage a further 180 degrees again in sequence :~
Next I pour some 10-40 Semisynthetic engine oil liberally over both CAMshafts so that they are saturated in engine oil.
Then fit the Camshaft carrier gasket and CAMshaft cover along with the coil packs after carefully inserting the four Spark Plugs. This involves about two dozen 8mm bolts. They do not need to be very tight. It is recommended to use a heat resistant sealant if reusing the old gasket as a belt and braces job against oil leaks from this area. I have not done that at this stage. I will do later as I prefer my cars to have a near spot less engine compartment ~ they are usually cosmetically cleaner than the paintwork on the body. A clean engine has the advantage of showing tell tale signs or stains if things start to go wrong...you will not easily spot things like that if the engine is filthy anyway. Once up and running, the engine will be cleaned thoroughly with degreasant and pressure wash, ideally steam clean although this engine is relaytively clean anyway despite being eight years old with 76,000 miles on the clock as the picture following this one clearly shows :~
I took this image with the engine idling but, my little Canon IXUS Compact Digital camera managed to freeze the frame ..
The engine is running in this shot of the front of the car too ~ dark already ~ my least favourite time of year ~ this clocks back mullarkey does not suit my lifestyle...
The final three photographs show the CAMshaft Locking Tool which I find is is not essential to use. It holds them whilst checking the Indexes on the Pulleys. You can clearly see the Indexes lined up in the second last picture and finally, close up of the Timing Belt Tensioner Index at the correct setting for the tension. It is adjusted with an allen Key and secured with a 10mm bolt once adjusted.
Tomorrow I shall put some speedflush in the cooling system to flush out any old oil-coolant mix lurking in the system. There's always some.
This first picture shows the process of using the torque wrench to set the 20 Newton Metres 1st Stage of the through bolt tightening process. There are ten of those bolts which clamp the cylinder head down and must be tightened in the correct sequence. See my aid memoir notes also in the picture.
The 2nd stage involves turning all ten bolts in sequence through 180 degrees. Then finally the 3rd stage a further 180 degrees again in sequence :~
Next I pour some 10-40 Semisynthetic engine oil liberally over both CAMshafts so that they are saturated in engine oil.
Then fit the Camshaft carrier gasket and CAMshaft cover along with the coil packs after carefully inserting the four Spark Plugs. This involves about two dozen 8mm bolts. They do not need to be very tight. It is recommended to use a heat resistant sealant if reusing the old gasket as a belt and braces job against oil leaks from this area. I have not done that at this stage. I will do later as I prefer my cars to have a near spot less engine compartment ~ they are usually cosmetically cleaner than the paintwork on the body. A clean engine has the advantage of showing tell tale signs or stains if things start to go wrong...you will not easily spot things like that if the engine is filthy anyway. Once up and running, the engine will be cleaned thoroughly with degreasant and pressure wash, ideally steam clean although this engine is relaytively clean anyway despite being eight years old with 76,000 miles on the clock as the picture following this one clearly shows :~
I took this image with the engine idling but, my little Canon IXUS Compact Digital camera managed to freeze the frame ..
The engine is running in this shot of the front of the car too ~ dark already ~ my least favourite time of year ~ this clocks back mullarkey does not suit my lifestyle...
The final three photographs show the CAMshaft Locking Tool which I find is is not essential to use. It holds them whilst checking the Indexes on the Pulleys. You can clearly see the Indexes lined up in the second last picture and finally, close up of the Timing Belt Tensioner Index at the correct setting for the tension. It is adjusted with an allen Key and secured with a 10mm bolt once adjusted.
Tomorrow I shall put some speedflush in the cooling system to flush out any old oil-coolant mix lurking in the system. There's always some.
Before the rain set in, made more progress this Friday morning at nine. Took car for fifteen mile trip to get the engine up to temperature and whilst doing so, noticed the heater ( full on ) would blow very hot and then a mile or so later much cooler on full on... Some Air still in system but temperature gauge exactly where it should be on a healthy K-Series. Air is obviously moving around as it blew hot and cold. Stopped and allowed engine to cool down for about five minutes and carefully removed the Coolant Expansion Bottle Cap. I did not detect the usual 'shuuush' noise as the pressure is released. Do not do that immediately after switching off a hot engine ~ the cooling system will be under extra pressure and the hot coolant will escape under that powerful pressure with a risk of injury from scalding...wear stout gloves if you're unsure...
Looking into the Expansion Bottle, the water level ( no antifreeze used at this stage ) had dropped to well below the MIN mark index but still covered the bottom of the bottle. Obviously the system is still bleeding itself despite my efforts previously squeezing the main coolant hoses and opening the bleed bolts to send any air pockets up and away in the bottle. Before topping up, I emptied the contents of a Bottle of Holts SPEEDflush into the expansion bottle and then topped up to the MAX level with more water.
Took car for another trip and some shopping so some highish Motorway speeds and some traffic stop-start stuff. Heater on Hot and no sign of air in system this time. Good heater in this car. Must have completed about sixty miles today returning home just as the rain was getting heavier. After allowing the coolant to settle down and lose pressure for a few minutes after switch off, I carefully undid ~ not removed ~ the Expansion bottle cap until I heard that distinctive sound of the pressure being released. Cooling systems operate at a high pressure which allows the boiling point to be much higher than at atmospheric pressure. Even so, be careful as there is always a risk with very hot coolant about.
I used a largish syringe to extract some of the coolant from the now very dirty expansion bottle. Obviously the Flush is doing its stuff ~ look at the colour of that stuff I removed from the bottle. Nasty ... Loaded with oil-mix residue from when the cylinder head gasket got damaged and unlike the crystal clear water I had put in the system earlier.... No matter how thorough you work to clear up the mess after a gasket lets go, there is always quite a lot left in the system which needs to come out, particularly in the radiator. The flush will chase most of it out and hold in suspension until its all drained away.
Rain stopped play ...
It was raining too much to drain the filthy coolant today ~ still pouring right now at 8:35 pm tonight ....so, I'll drain and hose out the system when conditions improve.
With this draining and filling the cooling system, unless it is done properly so that all the air is removed from the engine coolant passageways, there is a risk of a so called "they all do that " repeat failure. I suspect it is not simply bad luck or mere coincidence when a repeat happens so soon after a coolant service or other work on these engines.
Did about sixty five miles all told and the little engine spun like a smooth turbine whilst I watched that temperature gauge like a Hawk for the first thirty or so miles until I was more confident all was well. I'm delighted so far.
Ongoing.,,,
Looking into the Expansion Bottle, the water level ( no antifreeze used at this stage ) had dropped to well below the MIN mark index but still covered the bottom of the bottle. Obviously the system is still bleeding itself despite my efforts previously squeezing the main coolant hoses and opening the bleed bolts to send any air pockets up and away in the bottle. Before topping up, I emptied the contents of a Bottle of Holts SPEEDflush into the expansion bottle and then topped up to the MAX level with more water.
Took car for another trip and some shopping so some highish Motorway speeds and some traffic stop-start stuff. Heater on Hot and no sign of air in system this time. Good heater in this car. Must have completed about sixty miles today returning home just as the rain was getting heavier. After allowing the coolant to settle down and lose pressure for a few minutes after switch off, I carefully undid ~ not removed ~ the Expansion bottle cap until I heard that distinctive sound of the pressure being released. Cooling systems operate at a high pressure which allows the boiling point to be much higher than at atmospheric pressure. Even so, be careful as there is always a risk with very hot coolant about.
I used a largish syringe to extract some of the coolant from the now very dirty expansion bottle. Obviously the Flush is doing its stuff ~ look at the colour of that stuff I removed from the bottle. Nasty ... Loaded with oil-mix residue from when the cylinder head gasket got damaged and unlike the crystal clear water I had put in the system earlier.... No matter how thorough you work to clear up the mess after a gasket lets go, there is always quite a lot left in the system which needs to come out, particularly in the radiator. The flush will chase most of it out and hold in suspension until its all drained away.
Rain stopped play ...
It was raining too much to drain the filthy coolant today ~ still pouring right now at 8:35 pm tonight ....so, I'll drain and hose out the system when conditions improve.
With this draining and filling the cooling system, unless it is done properly so that all the air is removed from the engine coolant passageways, there is a risk of a so called "they all do that " repeat failure. I suspect it is not simply bad luck or mere coincidence when a repeat happens so soon after a coolant service or other work on these engines.
Did about sixty five miles all told and the little engine spun like a smooth turbine whilst I watched that temperature gauge like a Hawk for the first thirty or so miles until I was more confident all was well. I'm delighted so far.
Ongoing.,,,
Bill said:
Ace thread. I hope there're still cars about you can work on at home by the time I retire.Fordo said:
impressive work!
isn't this a wonderful time of year to be wielding a spanner?
Yes, I love to twirl the spanners when I'm not up against the clock anymore. I'm currently watching Qualifying in Brasil. Great when time is all your own ... after fifty one years of the boss calling the tune, including when I was my own boss when I worked far harder .. nice when the pressure is off. isn't this a wonderful time of year to be wielding a spanner?
Quinny said:
John, to remove all the crap from the cooling system, can you not just run it as a "total loss" system with a hose pipe, until it flows clean??
In my limited purely amateur experience, even the garden hose at full flow will not clear all the stuff. I even had to push a small screwdriver through the bleed screw hole before it would bleed so strong is the oil-coolant salad cream mix after the gasket is damaged. The SPEEDflush dissolves a huge amount of of ther remnant oil mix lurking in all the nooks and crannies of the cooling system and keeps it in suspension until drained. It is tempting to then use the garden hose but that is not environmentally a good idea. I drive powerful turbo cars but am partial to preserve a few trees too... Tree-hugging petrol-head me ... and I like Rovers .... I drained the FLUSHED treated coolant into bowls until all was out rather than simply let it run away. Then I used the garden hose at full pressure as you suggested and the water ran crystal clear within a second or two. That's what I wanted to see. I have known a radiator to be completely blocked with oil mix following head gasket damage ~ or in that case where whoever did the initial repair prior to the immediate 'repeat', they forgot to insert the critical head locating dowel which also contains the oil supply to the Over Head Camshafts. Net result, engine oil at high pump pressure straight into the cooling passageways in the head... they all do that mate .... Yeah... right ...
... Such was the strength of that oil-coolant mix, you could stand a spoon up in it! No hose would clear it but, the SPEEDflush did. It simply would not drain of its own accord so thick was the stuff:~
This was the essential Cylinder Head Locating Dowel which was not fitted during the previous repair:~
That was the very first K-Series I ever tackled ~ did it as a favour for a lady friend. Changing the cylinder head gasket was a doddle ~ the real work was the time consuming thorough cleansing of the cooling system ~ essential for the future well being of the engine...
Even though it ran crystal clear thius morning, I refilled again using water only as there could be a few blobs of oil mix still to be cleared and I do not want to contaminate fresh OAT coolant. I'll run the car a couple more days and then drain again. That should ensure it is all clear. Then put the proper 50-50 OAT Coolant mix in.
I took a range of pictures of today's work and will put them all up when circumstances allow. That way anyone tackling a similar job will have some hints to follow. A picture speaks a thousand years and all that.
I've now done over 100 miles in this car. It's performing far better than I had hoped. For an ordinary little car, it's a delight to drive. It's ideal for purpose, as a first car for Son No. 2.
martin mrt said:
What a cracking thread, for such a regular and largely unloved car.
Followed it from the beginning and I must admit to having a "bit of a spot" for an old Rover.
Great work John
Nice to see my efforts are appreciated. As a nation we excel at talking down home successes and product ... like Rovers. A Nation's loss in so many ways because they are better, far better cars than many consumers will ever understand. All that means that if you find a tidy well maintained example, they are excellent value. Followed it from the beginning and I must admit to having a "bit of a spot" for an old Rover.
Great work John
I never pay over the odds for my motoring ~ be it buying a new car or used. I get more kicks out of breathing fresh life into an old car like this than taking delivery of a new car ~ the latter being something I have done about twenty times in my driving career, mostly company cars .... often not my own choices either. Company policy John Boy ... No Rovers or MGs for you...
Only in the UK ...
More follows.... including pictures when possible... Watch this space.
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P.S.
Edit to add ... What a blinder by Hulkenberg! Pole in Brasil ....!!
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Edited by MGJohn on Saturday 6th November 18:38
Just catching up on this thread after finishing my dads 416 tonight. Pleasantly reassured by your notes on the cooling system - ran it up tonight, got rad and engine nice and warm.
Gauge reading bang in the middle, heater blowing hot and cold - I wanted to see the rad fan kick but wasn't brave enough to leave it more than the approx 10mins it had already run as was concerned also by the lack of pressure appearing in the expansion tank.
I've opened the bleed screw a couple of times and checked to ensure water exits from the top of the rad etc, any thing else I can try to bleed the system? The last thing I need is a repeat performance.
Dad collects it tomorrow night, he'll keep an eye on temps etc.
Cheers John, this thread has been a great help.
Gauge reading bang in the middle, heater blowing hot and cold - I wanted to see the rad fan kick but wasn't brave enough to leave it more than the approx 10mins it had already run as was concerned also by the lack of pressure appearing in the expansion tank.
I've opened the bleed screw a couple of times and checked to ensure water exits from the top of the rad etc, any thing else I can try to bleed the system? The last thing I need is a repeat performance.
Dad collects it tomorrow night, he'll keep an eye on temps etc.
Cheers John, this thread has been a great help.
Since this appears to be a 'K'-Series info exchange thread..
How do we feel about the 'improved' bottom ladder? Why should it be fitted?
Reason I ask is, firstly...
Much 'improvement' of the 'K' is, in my research-based opinion, just guesswork, and
When I did my own HGF (thankfully a breach between water jacket and atmosphere and driven for 1/2 mile) I merely fitted a new gasket (identical to the one removed) and the stainless dowels in place of the plastic ones. It's been fine ever since (6 years?) and regularly sees it's redline. I did take the opportunity to fit a remote thermostat.
How do we feel about the 'improved' bottom ladder? Why should it be fitted?
Reason I ask is, firstly...
Much 'improvement' of the 'K' is, in my research-based opinion, just guesswork, and
When I did my own HGF (thankfully a breach between water jacket and atmosphere and driven for 1/2 mile) I merely fitted a new gasket (identical to the one removed) and the stainless dowels in place of the plastic ones. It's been fine ever since (6 years?) and regularly sees it's redline. I did take the opportunity to fit a remote thermostat.
Ben Magoo said:
Just catching up on this thread after finishing my dads 416 tonight. Pleasantly reassured by your notes on the cooling system - ran it up tonight, got rad and engine nice and warm.
Gauge reading bang in the middle, heater blowing hot and cold - I wanted to see the rad fan kick but wasn't brave enough to leave it more than the approx 10mins it had already run as was concerned also by the lack of pressure appearing in the expansion tank.
I've opened the bleed screw a couple of times and checked to ensure water exits from the top of the rad etc, any thing else I can try to bleed the system? The last thing I need is a repeat performance.
Dad collects it tomorrow night, he'll keep an eye on temps etc.
Cheers John, this thread has been a great help.
Glad it has helped ... main reason I take the time to do these threads ~ I know they're appreciated.Gauge reading bang in the middle, heater blowing hot and cold - I wanted to see the rad fan kick but wasn't brave enough to leave it more than the approx 10mins it had already run as was concerned also by the lack of pressure appearing in the expansion tank.
I've opened the bleed screw a couple of times and checked to ensure water exits from the top of the rad etc, any thing else I can try to bleed the system? The last thing I need is a repeat performance.
Dad collects it tomorrow night, he'll keep an eye on temps etc.
Cheers John, this thread has been a great help.
Heater blowing both hot then cold when on the HOT setting is a sign there's still air in the cooling system working its way around... needs to come out. That happened the first time I bled this current project as described earlier in this thread. Once bled, the top hose should be almost to hot to hold for long.
I find that by carefully... very carefully placing one hand on the radiator top hose, and the other on the bottom hose.... whilst the engine is running ~ keep hands away from the fan in case it comes on ~ and squeezing alternatively, this seems to expel the air. Do it firstly with the coolant expansion bottle cap removed when the engine is warmed, and then with the cap in place. Repeat process if necessary... it works for me with my very limited amateur facilities.
Before I ever did, when my son first changed a K-Series CHG, he could not get the system to bleed correctly ~ limited amateur facilities ~ so he asked me to try. As soon as we took the car down the road for the first mile or so, the temperature gauge needle would stay in the ideal position. As soon as you started to use the revs the little K-Series usually thrives on, that needle would climb above the normal 'safe' reading heading towards the red but, never getting there...
.My son had bled the system but still the needle would climb above the ideal reading when driving ...
So, I re-bled the system in the usual way and tried the alternate hose squeezing and was pleased to see bubbles appearing ... briefly ... in the expansion bottle. Another four mile run with bursts of acceleration showed a stable temperature gauge reading. Back home the level in the bottle had dropped below MIN a tad... self bleeding whilst running I guess... so a quick top up to the MAX and no further trouble.
Over the past couple of years, I have completed three K-Series replacement CHGs now. Two 1.4s and a 1.8... all good as gold and still running strong ... so far. My son and his Rover and MG mad mates have done about a dozen between them ( he has a lot of mates ~ he's in Paris with some of them at the mo ) and looks like we've sussed the correct bleeding mullarkey ... fingers crossed.
When these little K-Series motors are in a good state of maintenance, they are a joy to use. The one in my son's Elise ~ just behind the driver's head ~ underlines that and then some every time I drive it ... Smile on the faces and all that.
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Oh yes... Watch that temperature gauge needle like one of these until you are confident all is well... I took this image in a neighbour's garden.. ...
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Ferg said:
Since this appears to be a 'K'-Series info exchange thread..
How do we feel about the 'improved' bottom ladder? Why should it be fitted?
On the smaller cars like the Rover 25/45s and their MG sporting equivalents, the stronger bottom ladder is not really necessary provided the engine has not been damaged by severe overheating. I have known work colleagues when seeing steam emerge from their cars bonnets when on the motorway and the needle climb towards the red, have driven on as the steam quickly stopped and the needle dropped down. They mistakenly thought all was well and drove on .... until the poor little engine without sufficient coolant seized up. Not just Rovers, other cars will do this when their coolant has disappeared via a worn or perished hose or water pump. How do we feel about the 'improved' bottom ladder? Why should it be fitted?
Of course, that steam will quickly stop when most of the coolant has disappeared quickly at Motorway speeds as it will and as the coolant temperature sensor has nothing to 'sense', the reading will drop down too... All's well again so drive on ... WRONG !!
However, the original 1.1 and 1.4 K-Series was stretched and stretched and asked to punch well above its weight in the larger Rovers and even Land Rovers where it has to work much harder. Those additional stresses resulting in numerous premature failures apparently and the stronger bottom rail helps here but, is never a guarantee of lasting reliability, only improved ... from what I have read. Never fitted one.
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Edited by MGJohn on Sunday 7th November 11:22
MGJohn said:
Ferg said:
Since this appears to be a 'K'-Series info exchange thread..
How do we feel about the 'improved' bottom ladder? Why should it be fitted?
On the smaller cars like the Rover 25/45s and their MG sporting equivalents, the stronger bottom ladder is not really necessary provided the engine has not been damaged by severe overheating. I have known work colleagues when seeing steam emerge from their cars bonnets when on the motorway and the needle climb towards the red, have driven on as the steam quickly stopped and the needle dropped down. They mistakenly thought all was well and drove on .... until the poor little engine without sufficient coolant seized up. Not just Rovers, other cars will do this when their coolant has disappeared via a worn or perished hose or water pump. How do we feel about the 'improved' bottom ladder? Why should it be fitted?
Of course, that steam will quickly stop when most of the coolant has disappeared quickly at Motorway speeds as it will and as the coolant temperature sensor has nothing to 'sense', the reading will drop down too... All's well again so drive on ... WRONG !!
However, the original 1.1 and 1.4 K-Series was stretched and stretched and asked to punch well above its weight in the larger Rovers and even Land Rovers where it has to work much harder. Those additional stresses resulting in numerous premature failures apparently and the stronger bottom rail helps here but, is never a guarantee of lasting reliability, only improved ... from what I have read. Never fitted one.
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