Login | Register
SearchMy Stuff
My ProfileMy PreferencesMy Mates RSS Feed
2 3 4
Reply to Topic
Author Discussion

AJI

Original Poster:

2,542 posts

100 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
Just been having a discussion with a work colleague about the mis-use of RED diesel.

Example case in question:

Joe Bloggs is a normal office worker commuting to work in a rural town. He has a farmer friend who he agrees to pay for supply of RED diesel to go in to his 2L TDi family estate car.
One day Mr Bloggs gets stopped by police after a tip-off and red diesel is found in the tank of the car.
Mr Bloggs has owned the car from new for 20 years and has done 200,000 miles since purchase. Mr Bloggs has only used red diesel un-lawfully in his car for the last one month prior to being stopped.


My work colleague says that customs and excise will take over this 'case' and they will seek to recover tax on the red diesel not only on the one month admitted use of the fuel by Mr Bloggs, but also on the entire milage of the vehicle from new. Ie. they make the assumption that red diesel has been un-lawfully used for the entire 200,000 miles.
I dissagreed by saying that proof is required onthe amount of red diesel used and proof in this case will not be forthcoming, therefore they will only be able to fine him and recover tax on whatever they find in the tank and/or whatever has been admitted by Mr Bloggs.



Any views on this?

bumblepup

87 posts

89 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
Serves them right...

No one likes paying tax but its a fact of life.

guru_1071

2,551 posts

117 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
many years ago i worked for a company during my uni holidays that ran a fleet of vans and a truck.

every vehicle ran on cherry diesel, with the young & stupid apprentice told that if they ever got stopped he was to 'confess' that he had 'accidently' filled all the company vehicles from the wrong tank!

the owner had run like this for years, and was never stopped, the only thing that eventually forced him onto fuel cards and white diesel was when fuel thefts from his own tanks cost more than the savings he made!

Marlin45

715 posts

47 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
'My work colleague says that customs and excise will take over this 'case' and they will seek to recover tax on the red diesel not only on the one month admitted use of the fuel by Mr Bloggs, but also on the entire milage of the vehicle from new. Ie. they make the assumption that red diesel has been un-lawfully used for the entire 200,000 miles'.

This is what will happen wink


aclivity

3,609 posts

71 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
The farmer wasn't his friend, but was having a torrid affair with his wife. Immediately following the red diesel fill up, he called the HMRC and stitched him up. He also said that his diesel levels have been lower than expected for the last 20 years, and he suspects his so-called "friend" has been helping himself all that time. TDi man gets time, comes out to find his wife has left him for the farmer.

(point I am making is that in the scenario in the OP, surely the likelihood of it being a random check is astronomically unlikely?)

Edited by aclivity on Monday 21st February 13:10

Advertisement

Deva Link

26,934 posts

128 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
I've seen lots of posts to say it's a pretty standard £500 fine for the first offence.

Allegedly HMRC monitor sales of red and white diesel by area and if they see changes in the split then they target that area.

mcflurry

7,844 posts

136 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
Deva Link said:
Allegedly HMRC monitor sales of red and white diesel by area and if they see changes in the split then they target that area.
Seems like a good place to start IMHO smile

davethebunny

706 posts

58 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
my father got caught many moons ago.

The old landrover which was re-registered as an agricultural vehicle, was dipped at the cattle market. As i think you're allowed about a mile and he was about 12miles away. They fined him for it.

It was probably 20 years ago now, and to be fair to him prior to changing the class he did always run it on derv.

He only changed 'cos it failed the MOT and this was a way to keep it as a useful workhorse.

AJI

Original Poster:

2,542 posts

100 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
Marlin45 said:
'My work colleague says that customs and excise will take over this 'case' and they will seek to recover tax on the red diesel not only on the one month admitted use of the fuel by Mr Bloggs, but also on the entire milage of the vehicle from new. Ie. they make the assumption that red diesel has been un-lawfully used for the entire 200,000 miles'.

This is what will happen wink
So it is a charge based on the age/milage of the vehicle and not the amount of red diesel used?
A sort of guilty unless you can prove otherwise.


The main reason we got on to this subject was because we were talking about veg oil as diesel engine fuel and how (aparently) the government can allow you 21,000miles before you have to declare it.
How do they measure how much you have used?
MOT? = no, because this simply just states milage, not what fuel is being used. And also not what percentage mix you are using etc.

sinizter

3,348 posts

69 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
Marlin45 said:
'My work colleague says that customs and excise will take over this 'case' and they will seek to recover tax on the red diesel not only on the one month admitted use of the fuel by Mr Bloggs, but also on the entire milage of the vehicle from new. Ie. they make the assumption that red diesel has been un-lawfully used for the entire 200,000 miles'.

This is what will happen wink
Unless the person using red diesel can provide evidence that he got the car used, with whatever miles on the clock, and can show fuel receipts, which correlate with the miles done ?

He wouldn't have receipts for the last one month .... Which is what they will do him for ?

Obviously, their counter argument could be that the car has been clocked to keep the receipts and mileage correlated ....

Not sure what will really happen.

UncleRic

911 posts

51 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
I think that HMRC have Red Diesel detector vans. They have big funnels on the roof of the van that 'test' the air, litterally sniffing out users of red diesel. When the sensitive equipment sniffs out a potential user the horn is activated and a giant arrow (which extends from the bonnet) points at the suspect vehicle. HMRC officers then use their magic powers to test the fuel (on the road side) and if it is found to be untaxed they will get a little upset, often to the point of seizure.

Tyre Smoke

9,595 posts

144 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
UncleRic said:
I think that HMRC have Red Diesel detector vans. They have big funnels on the roof of the van that 'test' the air, litterally sniffing out users of red diesel. When the sensitive equipment sniffs out a potential user the horn is activated and a giant arrow (which extends from the bonnet) points at the suspect vehicle. HMRC officers then use their magic powers to test the fuel (on the road side) and if it is found to be untaxed they will get a little upset, often to the point of seizure.
Blimey that's a bit excessive even for a Civil Serpent, having a seizure because of lost revenue.

AndyAudi

1,835 posts

105 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
AJI said:
So it is a charge based on the age/milage of the vehicle and not the amount of red diesel used?
A sort of guilty unless you can prove otherwise.
Pretty much

Used to work with a fuel co so we did get all the info on it.

From what I recall

£250 fine for putting it in
&
£250 fine for using it
&
Car may be kept until a further fine paid which is calculated based on HMRC's mileage calculation.

I know that 5 years ago there were only 2 detecting units in Scotland, which mainly dipped lorries & 4X4's in agricultural communities.

UncleRic

911 posts

51 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
Tyre Smoke said:
UncleRic said:
.. often to the point of seizure.
Blimey that's a bit excessive even for a Civil Serpent, having a seizure because of lost revenue.
The Detection guys don't wear neck ties for this very reason.

HMRC said:
Motorists found using rebated fuels on the roads are liable to seizure of the fuel and vehicle until duty and/or a penalty is paid or permanent confiscation of the vehicle.
Oh, seizure of the vehicle.. riiiight, I geddit now.


AndyAudi

1,835 posts

105 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
AJI said:
The main reason we got on to this subject was because we were talking about veg oil as diesel engine fuel and how (aparently) the government can allow you 21,000miles before you have to declare it.
How do they measure how much you have used?
And also not what percentage mix you are using etc.
From HMRC
Onus is on user to keep a record of how much is used & when.
Allowed to use up to 2500 litres a year before duty needs to be paid and more detailed records submitted.

HMRC Says

AJI

Original Poster:

2,542 posts

100 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
AndyAudi said:
Pretty much

Used to work with a fuel co so we did get all the info on it.

From what I recall

£250 fine for putting it in
&
£250 fine for using it
&
Car may be kept until a further fine paid which is calculated based on HMRC's mileage calculation.

I know that 5 years ago there were only 2 detecting units in Scotland, which mainly dipped lorries & 4X4's in agricultural communities.
So taking this forward and applying it to the vegetable oil that can be put in to diesel engines......I can't find a figure for how many miles you can use before declaring it....all I can find is that you must declare all uses of veg oil etc. if using as a fuel.
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/ch...

Soooo.....I am guessing that if you are 'dipped' and found to be using veg oil not declared, the same procedure would be taken as if you are using red diesel?

ie. fine and calculations based on the total milage of the vehicle, no matter how much veg oil you've put in.

Seems harsh.

AJI

Original Poster:

2,542 posts

100 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
AndyAudi said:
From HMRC
Onus is on user to keep a record of how much is used & when.
Allowed to use up to 2500 litres a year before duty needs to be paid and more detailed records submitted.

HMRC Says
Cheers Andy. That makes sense now.

lambo_xx

2,054 posts

80 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
AJI said:
So it is a charge based on the age/milage of the vehicle and not the amount of red diesel used?
A sort of guilty unless you can prove otherwise.
Unfortunately when it comes to tax that is more or less the attitude HMRC take. Unless you can prove otherwise then you are guilty.

SplatSpeed

7,271 posts

134 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
Don't do it

My brother is as dodgy as they come.

Would buy red diesel in barrels in his van then take them home and fill his van.

One day he stole the battery from one of my cars, I found out so went round to retrieve it!

Long story short, he brawled with me in the street, finally returning said battery!

However a month later he was raided by HMRC. Someone had seen the fight and used me as cover to shop him.

Unfortunatly he had kept all receipts for the red diesel! He still blames me!

Pigeon

18,535 posts

129 months

[news] 
Monday 21st February 2011 quote quote all
What if you put your own red dye into ordinary diesel just to wind them up? silly

2 3 4
Reply to Topic