Money Laundering Regulations
Discussion
I've just been looking over HMRC's money laundering regulations and who they think should be registered for money laundering purposes.
The bit that has got me thinking is about "High Value Dealers" and is:
My query comes from the ambiguity of the word cash. I tend to think of cash as in readies (if I went to buy a car for £10,000 in cash, I take along 200 £50 notes). Some people talk about buying a £10,000 car for cash (they paid on their debit card but they had the cash i.e. not financed).
So, which is it that HMRC are talking about?
If you were to take payments worth over 15,000€ but it was all done via electronic payment methods (e.g. debit card/BACS/CHAPS/FP/Other wire) and specifically didn't allow people to go to your bank and pay in readies, would you therefore be a "High Value Dealer"?
My initial gut reaction was that you wouldn't be a HVD and it wouldn't be an issue as the money is already 'in the system'. Would this be correct?
Cheers
The Moose
The bit that has got me thinking is about "High Value Dealers" and is:
HMRC said:
What is a High Value Dealer?
The term High Value Dealer has a special meaning under the Money Laundering Regulations 2007. These regulations came into force on 15 December 2007 and describe a High Value Dealer as any business that receives cash payments worth 15,000 euros or more in exchange for goods.
(full text http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/mlr/getstarted/register/hvd...)The term High Value Dealer has a special meaning under the Money Laundering Regulations 2007. These regulations came into force on 15 December 2007 and describe a High Value Dealer as any business that receives cash payments worth 15,000 euros or more in exchange for goods.
My query comes from the ambiguity of the word cash. I tend to think of cash as in readies (if I went to buy a car for £10,000 in cash, I take along 200 £50 notes). Some people talk about buying a £10,000 car for cash (they paid on their debit card but they had the cash i.e. not financed).
So, which is it that HMRC are talking about?
If you were to take payments worth over 15,000€ but it was all done via electronic payment methods (e.g. debit card/BACS/CHAPS/FP/Other wire) and specifically didn't allow people to go to your bank and pay in readies, would you therefore be a "High Value Dealer"?
My initial gut reaction was that you wouldn't be a HVD and it wouldn't be an issue as the money is already 'in the system'. Would this be correct?
Cheers
The Moose
V8mate said:
Cash = folding notes.
No limit on electronic transactions as the money is 'in the system'.
My initial assumption. So if only electronic transfers, then no need to be registered as a HVD?!No limit on electronic transactions as the money is 'in the system'.
If you allowed people to pay cash into a bank account, would it be down to the bank, or the owner of the account?
Cheers
The Moose
Simpo Two said:
I heard from a Land Rover dealer that they couldn't accept more than £10,000 in folding stuff. But maybe that was their own ruling; drug dealers being quite partial to the brand etc.
There was a thread about this recently and some dealers won't accept cash at all for car purchases.The Moose said:
If you allowed people to pay cash into a bank account, would it be down to the bank, or the owner of the account?
The bank should report the transaction. In practice it seems they often query it, but they're not supposed to do that - they should report it without saying anything.In order to assist my son in purchasing a property/home, I decided to sale two BTL properties. My son’s solicitor was informed of who, how the buying of his new home was being financed, with his (my son’s) solicitor duly instructing my solicitor that the monies from the proceeds of the two sales, should be sent direct to my son’s solicitors.
Slightly off target, but might be of interests to those who travel abroad carrying large amounts of cash, is this recent Judgement Angus v UKBA under the Proceeds of Crime Act:
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2011/461...
Slightly off target, but might be of interests to those who travel abroad carrying large amounts of cash, is this recent Judgement Angus v UKBA under the Proceeds of Crime Act:
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2011/461...
Deva Link said:
Simpo Two said:
I heard from a Land Rover dealer that they couldn't accept more than £10,000 in folding stuff. But maybe that was their own ruling; drug dealers being quite partial to the brand etc.
There was a thread about this recently and some dealers won't accept cash at all for car purchases.Matt buddy - your highlighted section allowed me easily to peruse in more detail!
"If a customer pays you for high value goods by depositing cash straight into your bank account then this counts as a high value payment that's covered by the regulations" - they would have used 'transfer' instead of 'depositing' if they meant to include BACS or the like.
"When you don't need to register as a High Value Dealer - ... [if] you never receive payments worth 15,000 euros or more in cash - perhaps because you're only ever paid large amounts by credit card, debit card or cheque"
The above two quotes from the HMRC website mean that definitively, your proposed model of no-cash-at-bank-tills will mean that it is firmly outside of HVD territory - IMPO!
This aligns both with your 'common sense' interpretation of what must be meant by 'cash', & also advice in this thread centering on that which can be folded (or indeed bitten for lead)!
"If a customer pays you for high value goods by depositing cash straight into your bank account then this counts as a high value payment that's covered by the regulations" - they would have used 'transfer' instead of 'depositing' if they meant to include BACS or the like.
"When you don't need to register as a High Value Dealer - ... [if] you never receive payments worth 15,000 euros or more in cash - perhaps because you're only ever paid large amounts by credit card, debit card or cheque"
The above two quotes from the HMRC website mean that definitively, your proposed model of no-cash-at-bank-tills will mean that it is firmly outside of HVD territory - IMPO!
This aligns both with your 'common sense' interpretation of what must be meant by 'cash', & also advice in this thread centering on that which can be folded (or indeed bitten for lead)!
Deva Link said:
The Moose said:
If you allowed people to pay cash into a bank account, would it be down to the bank, or the owner of the account?
The bank should report the transaction. In practice it seems they often query it, but they're not supposed to do that - they should report it without saying anything.skwdenyer said:
Deva Link said:
The Moose said:
If you allowed people to pay cash into a bank account, would it be down to the bank, or the owner of the account?
The bank should report the transaction. In practice it seems they often query it, but they're not supposed to do that - they should report it without saying anything.The other option would be to use a bank without branches (e.g. Cahoot etc) - don't know if they offer business bank accounts though?
Arif - many thanks for all that - just what I needed to hear!
Cheers
The Moose
cptsideways said:
And they do have a team looking for car adverts with "cash" in the text 
Reason for not most dealers not accepting over the base limit is it means registering the transaction with the authorities. Which is obviously a PITA.
That and Cash Money can be a liability, it needs taking to the bank it may contain fake notes, it will cost to pay in and possibly cost more to pay in than an electronic payment.Reason for not most dealers not accepting over the base limit is it means registering the transaction with the authorities. Which is obviously a PITA.
The Moose said:
skwdenyer said:
Deva Link said:
The Moose said:
If you allowed people to pay cash into a bank account, would it be down to the bank, or the owner of the account?
The bank should report the transaction. In practice it seems they often query it, but they're not supposed to do that - they should report it without saying anything.The other option would be to use a bank without branches (e.g. Cahoot etc) - don't know if they offer business bank accounts though?
Arif - many thanks for all that - just what I needed to hear!
Cheers
The Moose
skwdenyer said:
The Moose said:
skwdenyer said:
Deva Link said:
The Moose said:
If you allowed people to pay cash into a bank account, would it be down to the bank, or the owner of the account?
The bank should report the transaction. In practice it seems they often query it, but they're not supposed to do that - they should report it without saying anything.The other option would be to use a bank without branches (e.g. Cahoot etc) - don't know if they offer business bank accounts though?
Arif - many thanks for all that - just what I needed to hear!
Cheers
The Moose
I wonder if they would notice if you had a personal account with them and then just transfer the cash across? I wouldn't want people paying direct into my 'main account'. I would suggest a holder/feeder account for cash in (and all BACS/CHAPS/FP in).
Cheers
The Moose
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