Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party? (Vol. 2)
Discussion
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hstewie said:
hstewie said: To borrow a phrase the "Grrrr Labour" is really starting isn't it 
Starting? I thought Grrr Labour was ever present, similar to the Grrr Boris and Grrr Truss you so enjoy. I particularly note the high horse you continually issue posts from about principles and morality but illegal wars with real death and destruction don’t seem to register with you at all, but I suspect we know why that is.I hope you (and others) have your future pension provision sorted out or you could be working a lot longer than the current retirement ages, but that’s in the future and can be ignored for now I suppose!
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Yeah the people who have decided they don't want the current lot in charge any more are definitely deluded.
Not you though you're a very sensible reasoned chap just adding a bit of balance here aren't you.
Clearly closer to planet earth than you are stewie....Not you though you're a very sensible reasoned chap just adding a bit of balance here aren't you.
Anyone who has seen the changing of the guard before will understand. Unless they are a bit thick.
Garvin said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: To borrow a phrase the "Grrrr Labour" is really starting isn't it
Starting? I thought Grrr Labour was ever present, similar to the Grrr Boris and Grrr Truss you so enjoy. I particularly note the high horse you continually issue posts from about principles and morality but illegal wars with real death and destruction don’t seem to register with you at all, but I suspect we know why that is.I hope you (and others) have your future pension provision sorted out or you could be working a lot longer than the current retirement ages, but that’s in the future and can be ignored for now I suppose!
We can at least look forward to Starner Meets Not Zero, it'll be entertaining if nothing else, and atm there's nothing else.
Pension's fine thank you Garvin I decided a few years back I didn't want to work for ever and couldn't necessarily rely on any future Government for the state pension in its current form.
And yes Carlo I'm definitely "a bit thick".
Yeah I'd say you're all feeling it this morning and this is just some locals.
Imagine what you three are going to be like after the General Election if it goes as the polls suggest it will
And yes Carlo I'm definitely "a bit thick".
Yeah I'd say you're all feeling it this morning and this is just some locals.
Imagine what you three are going to be like after the General Election if it goes as the polls suggest it will
turbobloke said:
Stewie's remark was essentially another men-not-ball offering, also not surprising. Playing to the gallery is expected, grrr and all that.
We can at least look forward to Starner Meets Not Zero, it'll be entertaining if nothing else, and atm there's nothing else.
Exactly right, it's time for some hilarity in the media, whilst HMS Britain steams towards an iceberg, in a fetching shade of red We can at least look forward to Starner Meets Not Zero, it'll be entertaining if nothing else, and atm there's nothing else.
Garvin said:
Speed 3 said:
Not for some on here, they think all Labour governments are like the one in the 1970's, over half a century ago. They conveniently forget the one that served two terms more recently and (war crimes aside) had much better quality of living & global economic stats than we've had over the last 14 years.
I remember both Labour governments . . . and both were shyte. Both ran the country out of money!But dealing with the rather rose tinted view of the last Labour administration I give you (non exhaustive):
Education, education, education and how Blair turned seats of learning into bums on seats businesses both reducing the quality of most degrees and casting new graduates into a life of slim chance of a decent job but certainty of massive debt.
GP contracts and how Blair turned a dedicated public service into a 9-5 job where GPs enjoyed a massive increase in salary for less hours work, part time working and retiring early with the obvious result of GP appointments getting inexorably more and more difficult to obtain.
Taking the UK into illegal war with the devastating consequences to military families across the UK for no real good reason . . . but amazingly/apparently this is OK to sweep under the carpet for some!
The results of the above are real long term material damage to the UK which we continue to endure!
I stated (war crimes aside) so presume your point was aimed at others.
Just about the only thing (racks brain) I can give the Tories credit for over the last decade is reinstating Apprenticeships as a core training method and somewhat reversing the Blair fixation on degrees (although in his defence that came from looking at successful economies like South Korea). The problem is that the current government has taken such a toxic/inept attitude to business and the trading environment that the benefits of apprenticeships are somewhat lost.
The NHS is a monster that's a victim of it's own success and I don't know that any government can 'fix' it. I like Rory Stewart's idea of a cross-party review into what the scope of the NHS should be.
I general though, life was better in the 90's than now and there was a good degree less troughing and pandering to marginal views.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Pension's fine thank you Garvin I decided a few years back I didn't want to work for ever and couldn't necessarily rely on any future Government for the state pension in its current form.
And yes Carlo I'm definitely "a bit thick".
Yeah I'd say you're all feeling it this morning and this is just some locals.
Imagine what you three are going to be like after the General Election if it goes as the polls suggest it will
I’m not sure anyone in their right mind depends on a state pension . . . do they? I refer, of course, to the changes that Labour are being encouraged to make wrt pension provision, taxation et al - the ones you enjoy currently may, quite possibly, not exist for too much longer!And yes Carlo I'm definitely "a bit thick".
Yeah I'd say you're all feeling it this morning and this is just some locals.
Imagine what you three are going to be like after the General Election if it goes as the polls suggest it will
Your projection of ‘feelings’ onto others is nothing more than your own perceived schadenfreude. Some of us are just trying to adjust those rose tinted spectacles you wear. You really hope things will get better or can’t possibly get worse. Some of us are already consigned to the disappointment so will not ‘feel’ it as much when it comes to pass as those with said spectacles.
Enjoy your gloating . . . while it lasts!
vaud said:
They said that in 1997.
It was pretty much true.They beat Milband by the skin of their teeth (when the other Milliband would have won.) Then Corbyn single handedly saved the Torys.
So I think the Tory's were/are finished, they just had a bit of "luck". They have a miniscule membership. Not enough to do adequate door knocking.
Having said that Labour will face exactly the same constraints as the Torys. We're not going to see any noticeable difference in what actually happens.
Productivity is key. As someone on the Radio said, Politicians of all parties know what needs to be done. They just don't know how to get elected after they do it!
Speed 3 said:
The NHS is a monster that's a victim of it's own success and I don't know that any government can 'fix' it. I like Rory Stewart's idea of a cross-party review into what the scope of the NHS should be.
Gotta pick up on this point - the NHS is an abject failure.So successful, that in nearly a century no other nation on earth has copied it.
Significantly underesourced compared to spend compared to peers. Outcomes awful. Etc.
Stewart is an idiot, but he's at least right on this one. However, the reality is that even if a cross party commission were established to completely redefine it's scope, structure, etc., the resistance to anything actually workable in the medium to long term would be greater than any protests the country has ever seen.
Garvin said:
I remember both Labour governments . . . and both were shyte. Both ran the country out of money!
But dealing with the rather rose tinted view of the last Labour administration I give you (non exhaustive):
Education, education, education and how Blair turned seats of learning into bums on seats businesses both reducing the quality of most degrees and casting new graduates into a life of slim chance of a decent job but certainty of massive debt.
GP contracts and how Blair turned a dedicated public service into a 9-5 job where GPs enjoyed a massive increase in salary for less hours work, part time working and retiring early with the obvious result of GP appointments getting inexorably more and more difficult to obtain.
Taking the UK into illegal war with the devastating consequences to military families across the UK for no real good reason . . . but amazingly/apparently this is OK to sweep under the carpet for some!
The results of the above are real long term material damage to the UK which we continue to endure!
The start of project fear. That's all that's left really. But dealing with the rather rose tinted view of the last Labour administration I give you (non exhaustive):
Education, education, education and how Blair turned seats of learning into bums on seats businesses both reducing the quality of most degrees and casting new graduates into a life of slim chance of a decent job but certainty of massive debt.
GP contracts and how Blair turned a dedicated public service into a 9-5 job where GPs enjoyed a massive increase in salary for less hours work, part time working and retiring early with the obvious result of GP appointments getting inexorably more and more difficult to obtain.
Taking the UK into illegal war with the devastating consequences to military families across the UK for no real good reason . . . but amazingly/apparently this is OK to sweep under the carpet for some!
The results of the above are real long term material damage to the UK which we continue to endure!
Sway said:
Gotta pick up on this point - the NHS is an abject failure.
+1It's a failed experiment which nobody has copied. Now it's a religion and we're stuck with it. Arrogantly ignoring far better ways to deliver healthcare in Europe and elsewhere.
Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Friday 3rd May 09:53
Garvin said:
I remember both Labour governments . . . and both were shyte. Both ran the country out of money!
But dealing with the rather rose tinted view of the last Labour administration I give you (non exhaustive):
Education, education, education and how Blair turned seats of learning into bums on seats businesses both reducing the quality of most degrees and casting new graduates into a life of slim chance of a decent job but certainty of massive debt.
GP contracts and how Blair turned a dedicated public service into a 9-5 job where GPs enjoyed a massive increase in salary for less hours work, part time working and retiring early with the obvious result of GP appointments getting inexorably more and more difficult to obtain.
Taking the UK into illegal war with the devastating consequences to military families across the UK for no real good reason . . . but amazingly/apparently this is OK to sweep under the carpet for some!
The results of the above are real long term material damage to the UK which we continue to endure!
Well said. Fully agreeBut dealing with the rather rose tinted view of the last Labour administration I give you (non exhaustive):
Education, education, education and how Blair turned seats of learning into bums on seats businesses both reducing the quality of most degrees and casting new graduates into a life of slim chance of a decent job but certainty of massive debt.
GP contracts and how Blair turned a dedicated public service into a 9-5 job where GPs enjoyed a massive increase in salary for less hours work, part time working and retiring early with the obvious result of GP appointments getting inexorably more and more difficult to obtain.
Taking the UK into illegal war with the devastating consequences to military families across the UK for no real good reason . . . but amazingly/apparently this is OK to sweep under the carpet for some!
The results of the above are real long term material damage to the UK which we continue to endure!
Mixed feelings today.
The political future isn't really great, is it, despite however you might feel about the absolute state of the Tories. We're facing an incoming administration who are essentially just the only option no matter the skillset or policies, and no matter how crap they are, they will face no challenge for years (aside from the usual rabble rousing at PMQs) from a subdued & neutered party in opposition. Even if Labour turn out to have some decent policies, the state of the economy will screw them for years from ever implementing stuff properly.
The political future isn't really great, is it, despite however you might feel about the absolute state of the Tories. We're facing an incoming administration who are essentially just the only option no matter the skillset or policies, and no matter how crap they are, they will face no challenge for years (aside from the usual rabble rousing at PMQs) from a subdued & neutered party in opposition. Even if Labour turn out to have some decent policies, the state of the economy will screw them for years from ever implementing stuff properly.
Garvin said:
Really? For a current, live example of the stshow coming to a town near you I give you . . . Wales!
That's a pretty good point.tshow coming to a town near you I give you . . . Wales!Politicians have little room for manoever IMHO but on Education they have some control and Education in England is measurably better than Scotland and Wales in global comparisons. I see this in my own kids in England. State Education today is overwhelmingly better that the State Education I had in England. I'm genuinely envious.
Mind you, I think Labour are (contrary to popular opinion) better on defence. I don't see the Torys spending billions on Aircraft Carrriers. All the big defence cuts I remember have been under the Torys.
So by that logic I've got the timing right. My kids will be out of Education by the time Labour spoil it, and better defended by Labour from the world's nasty b
ds as young adults.Neither are going to sort productivity though.
Rufus Stone said:
Garvin said:
Really? For a current, live example of the stshow coming to a town near you I give you . . . Wales!
Keep going, you are doing well.tshow coming to a town near you I give you . . . Wales!Tankrizzo said:
Mixed feelings today.
The political future isn't really great, is it, despite however you might feel about the absolute state of the Tories. We're facing an incoming administration who are essentially just the only option no matter the skillset or policies, and no matter how crap they are, they will face no challenge for years (aside from the usual rabble rousing at PMQs) from a subdued & neutered party in opposition. Even if Labour turn out to have some decent policies, the state of the economy will screw them for years from ever implementing stuff properly.
All true, however, they fact they're obviously going to win by a landslide means talented people will want to be Labour MP candidates and a lot of them will win. So hopefully SKS will have a lot of talent to choose from.The political future isn't really great, is it, despite however you might feel about the absolute state of the Tories. We're facing an incoming administration who are essentially just the only option no matter the skillset or policies, and no matter how crap they are, they will face no challenge for years (aside from the usual rabble rousing at PMQs) from a subdued & neutered party in opposition. Even if Labour turn out to have some decent policies, the state of the economy will screw them for years from ever implementing stuff properly.
SKS will be constrained by the current situation, that is just a reality. Nobody is going to like it - the lefties will want to do more, the centrists will realise they can't do much and therefore hated by all sides, the righties will argue that its still all immigrants fault.
Comparisons back to Blair n Brown aren't overly helpful, the 00s were the most benign economic conditions the world had seen for a fair old period of time. And what happened? The western world damn nr managed to bankrupt itself by the end of the decade. I would hesitate to suggest that anybody uses this as a "good" example.
Climbing out of the '08 mess and plunging straight into Brexit can also be filed in the "not a good idea" drawer, but then hubris was CMD's big weakness in the same way that arrogance was Bojo's biggest weakness. One could argue that for 2 such vehement enemies, they were both rather alike in that respect.
Anyway, back to SKS and 2024. He should inherit a fairly optimistic outlook going forwards (in theory), but he will be constrained for his first 18months. The question initially will be how he manages that and then once things open up for him, what he will then do with that opportunity. I think that is where Chevron's view of SKS as a man utterly lacking in vision and convictions will start to get interesting. I wouldn't be surprised to see an internal Labour fight at that point.
Comparisons back to Blair n Brown aren't overly helpful, the 00s were the most benign economic conditions the world had seen for a fair old period of time. And what happened? The western world damn nr managed to bankrupt itself by the end of the decade. I would hesitate to suggest that anybody uses this as a "good" example.
Climbing out of the '08 mess and plunging straight into Brexit can also be filed in the "not a good idea" drawer, but then hubris was CMD's big weakness in the same way that arrogance was Bojo's biggest weakness. One could argue that for 2 such vehement enemies, they were both rather alike in that respect.
Anyway, back to SKS and 2024. He should inherit a fairly optimistic outlook going forwards (in theory), but he will be constrained for his first 18months. The question initially will be how he manages that and then once things open up for him, what he will then do with that opportunity. I think that is where Chevron's view of SKS as a man utterly lacking in vision and convictions will start to get interesting. I wouldn't be surprised to see an internal Labour fight at that point.
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