Boomer life according to the economist

Boomer life according to the economist

Author
Discussion

asfault

12,345 posts

181 months

Wednesday 15th May
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If they are moving to their retirement home the ex holiday home surely they will be selling their old main home so will only have 1 property?

also near 200k in 1999 thats going to be some monster price now.

havoc

30,241 posts

237 months

Wednesday 15th May
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OoopsVoss said:
If you want change we need focus on the real needs of the UK and thats basics - education, regional inequality and investment to support business growth.
thumbup

NickZ24

Original Poster:

184 posts

69 months

Wednesday 15th May
quotequote all
havoc said:
I'm not talking about creating a fortune.

I'm talking about being able to 'live'* (not just exist) in your 20s and 30s while subsequently not being a pauper in retirement / never really retiring.

* The odd meal out with partner or friends. Gigs and clubs every couple of months. A holiday maybe. st, a trackday if that's your thing, or a hiking trip with the lads, or a football/rugby tour...whatever. Stuff that adds flavour to what might otherwise feel like a punitive existence.
And I'm not talking about buying a house anyway, but in order to become independent, independence comes before you buy a house.

Condi said:
You're very dismissive of the actual evidence and academics who have looked at this stuff. Don't you believe them? Or is easier to simply put your head in the sand and keep complaining about avocados and coffees?
Why and where am I dismissive?
How can you read an emotion out of a few lines of text?


turbobloke said:
What exactly is 'this stuff', and which journal(s) is it in - I might strike it (un)lucky and have access; if it's open access then all the better to check it out.

Belief is hardly relevant; if their data is sound, their methodology reasonable for their aims, and conclusions are in keeping with that, then their positions would have credibility.

Belief on its own without the above analysis isn't the same thing as credibility, it's for the religious types and sometimes cults.
Exactly, it is not about beliefs but about reality. Hardly any statistic you can trust nowadays. You need to know who paid for it first.


NRS

22,259 posts

203 months

Thursday 16th May
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Yes, far better to make up your opinion first and then cherry pick stats to match your view.

The Leaper

4,979 posts

208 months

Thursday 16th May
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NRS said:
Yes, far better to make up your opinion first and then cherry pick stats to match your view.
I assume you are a Member of Parliament.

R.

Panamax

4,169 posts

36 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
OoopsVoss said:
If you want change we need focus on the real needs of the UK and thats basics - education, regional inequality and investment to support business growth.
Taking those in turn,

Education - absolutely. It's nonsense that "our" universities are full of "foreign" students because they pay higher fees and are good for the economy. We should be educating our own people to build our own economy. It's nonsense to be educating foreign students when businesses are crying out for educated/competent people from abroad. One of the greatest British Stupidities of this current era.

Regional Inequality - next thing you know there will be a huge office in Westminster called "The Department For Levelling Up" headed by some little worm like Michael Gove. If people want to level up they need to start levelling themselves up. A lot of the nonsense comes from people who want generous rewards from very little work. Poor UK productivity and the sick-note culture are indicators of a much broader problem.

Support Business Growth - it sounds lovely but I'm never quite sure what it looks like on the ground. Playing about with tax and allowances is easy enough but it doesn't create customer demand out of thin air and there's no point subsidising loss-making businesses just to employ a few people. Regrettably companies like Tata Steel and Nissan are only willing to stay in UK if they receive generous bribes from the government.

That first point, Education, is the key driver. It's something we can and should address right here, right now. Get education right and the rest should follow. But despite what politicians keep saying the idea that UK can go head-to-head with India, South Korea etc and beat them every time is pure dreamland. UK has backed itself into a tricky corner and will struggle to get out of it. Education is our best hope.

Condi

17,336 posts

173 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
Panamax said:
Education - absolutely. It's nonsense that "our" universities are full of "foreign" students because they pay higher fees and are good for the economy. We should be educating our own people to build our own economy. It's nonsense to be educating foreign students when businesses are crying out for educated/competent people from abroad. One of the greatest British Stupidities of this current era.
If anything there is a strong argument for the opposite to be true. There is an argument that the reason the US has done well compared to the UK is they have the jobs for an educated workforce, whereas we have a relatively well educated workforce but don't have the well paying/highly skilled jobs to support them. Blairs "50% of people to uni" was a great success in terms of getting people to uni, but the jobs market doesn't value their skills and instead we have shortages of plumbers, electricians, care workers, etc, for which you don't need a degree.

Foreign students subsidise UK students, they also spend money in the local economies and quite often stay behind afterwards and engage in the jobs market. Without the foreign students UK students would end up paying more (remember the fees for UK students are already £9k a year, plus a second loan to live off), with most UK students never expected to pay back their student debt until it is written off. If they were charged another 25% or 50% like foreign students are it would put a lot off ever going to uni.

BandOfBrothers

167 posts

2 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
Call me a cynic, but we're fked no matter what.

We have historically enjoyed a very favoured position due to our location, Navy and technological innovations (including the industrial revolution).

However, this country has been in decline from those heady heights since the early 1900s as other, better positioned countries (US, China) caught up and surpassed us, accelerated by two world wars that financially ruined us, partially delayed by the lottery win that was North Sea oil and gas, but now really setting in, and accelerated again by Brexit.

Our competitive advantages are largely gone. The speed of information and learning has never been faster. We simply cannot expect to maintain significantly greater living standards than the rest of the world any more.

Chin up though, eh?!


havoc

30,241 posts

237 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
Condi said:
If anything there is a strong argument for the opposite to be true. There is an argument that the reason the US has done well compared to the UK is they have the jobs for an educated workforce, whereas we have a relatively well educated workforce but don't have the well paying/highly skilled jobs to support them. Blairs "50% of people to uni" was a great success in terms of getting people to uni, but the jobs market doesn't value their skills and instead we have shortages of plumbers, electricians, care workers, etc, for which you don't need a degree.

Foreign students subsidise UK students, they also spend money in the local economies and quite often stay behind afterwards and engage in the jobs market. Without the foreign students UK students would end up paying more (remember the fees for UK students are already £9k a year, plus a second loan to live off), with most UK students never expected to pay back their student debt until it is written off. If they were charged another 25% or 50% like foreign students are it would put a lot off ever going to uni.
I currently work in the HE sector - this is a lot closer to the mark. That professions like nursing now "need" a degree is a bit of a joke quite frankly - there's a lot of roles where on-the-job training / parallel education makes so much more sense.


Also, UK universities, since fees became chargable, have upped their costs significantly and are now pretty-much dependent on foreign students to survive (& keep all their inflated salaries/ivory palaces). They're not really commercial people so have got sucked-in by one government policy, believed it to be the new normal, and are now scared stless that the current lot are going to go the full Braverman, ban student visas, and rip the financial heart out of a £40+bn industry that brings in a LOT of forex to this country.

havoc

30,241 posts

237 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
Panamax said:
Regional Inequality - next thing you know there will be a huge office in Westminster called "The Department For Levelling Up" headed by some little worm like Michael Gove. If people want to level up they need to start levelling themselves up. A lot of the nonsense comes from people who want generous rewards from very little work. Poor UK productivity and the sick-note culture are indicators of a much broader problem.
Productivity problems are largely down to a 20-year lack of investment by businesses who became wedded to cheap overseas labour, NOT down to the conduct of your average Brit worker - despite record low interest rates business owners opted for cheap labour over investment in force-multipliers like automation and advanced software. That's a structural headache that we desperately need to resolve.

...and the regional issues are NOT going to be solved by plucky Brits picking themselves up and dusting themselves off. Policies have been London-centric for decades.


BandOfBrothers said:
Call me a cynic, but we're fked no matter what.
...

However, this country has been in decline from those heady heights since the early 1900s ...

Our competitive advantages are largely gone. The speed of information and learning has never been faster. We simply cannot expect to maintain significantly greater living standards than the rest of the world any more.

Chin up though, eh?!
That applies to the rest of Europe also, and to the US to a degree (although they have the ubiquitous dollar and the largest domestic market in the world to buoy them up).

Panamax

4,169 posts

36 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
What does the NHS need? More doctors.

Do we educate doctors? Yes.

Do we educate enough doctors who stay and work in UK? No.

Where do we get our doctors and nurses? Many of them arrive as immigrants.

Are there plenty of British kids who would like a chance to become a doctor? Yes.

Why can't more British kids get into university to study medicine? Because the places are taken by foreign students who pay higher fees.

IMO this needs some proper, joined-up thinking.

Panamax

4,169 posts

36 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
BandOfBrothers said:
Call me a cynic, but we're fked no matter what.

Our competitive advantages are largely gone. The speed of information and learning has never been faster. We simply cannot expect to maintain significantly greater living standards than the rest of the world any more.
And we're weighed down by the impossibility of a "welfare state" that was unaffordable from the day it was set up and becomes more unaffordable every year. Then we have Rishi last week talking about a booming economy when we all know we're clattering over pot-holed roads and can't get an appointment at the doctor.

Until politicians stop spinning their wild optimism and knuckle down to hard facts we can't even begin to address the implications of this unfortunate reality.

BandOfBrothers

167 posts

2 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
Panamax said:
BandOfBrothers said:
Call me a cynic, but we're fked no matter what.

Our competitive advantages are largely gone. The speed of information and learning has never been faster. We simply cannot expect to maintain significantly greater living standards than the rest of the world any more.
And we're weighed down by the impossibility of a "welfare state" that was unaffordable from the day it was set up and becomes more unaffordable every year. Then we have Rishi last week talking about a booming economy when we all know we're clattering over pot-holed roads and can't get an appointment at the doctor.

Until politicians stop spinning their wild optimism and knuckle down to hard facts we can't even begin to address the implications of this unfortunate reality.
Not to mention that for the past 20 years we've had an almost unlimited supply of cheap labour, which we decided we don't want any more.

Steve H

5,373 posts

197 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
Panamax said:
Why can't more British kids get into university to study medicine? Because the places are taken by foreign students who pay higher fees.

.
Is that part actually true? Surely if there was more demand from Uk students that were hitting the right standards the Unis would ramp up their capacity?

Slow.Patrol

561 posts

16 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
Steve H said:
Panamax said:
Why can't more British kids get into university to study medicine? Because the places are taken by foreign students who pay higher fees.

.
Is that part actually true? Surely if there was more demand from Uk students that were hitting the right standards the Unis would ramp up their capacity?
Apparently so

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13355915/...

Other news sources are available (but behind a paywall)

havoc

30,241 posts

237 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
Panamax said:
What does the NHS need? More doctors.

Do we educate doctors? Yes.

Do we educate enough doctors who stay and work in UK? No.

Where do we get our doctors and nurses? Many of them arrive as immigrants.

Are there plenty of British kids who would like a chance to become a doctor? Yes.

Why can't more British kids get into university to study medicine? Because the places are taken by foreign students who pay higher fees.

IMO this needs some proper, joined-up thinking.
Not strictly true - misleading Daily Wail link notwithstanding (see below). The majority of international students come over here to study postgraduate courses, not Bachelors degrees. So very very few school leavers are denied places.


Slow.Patrol said:
Apparently not. NOWHERE in that article does it say that foreign students are getting those places - it just says top-grade A-level students are being turned away, and obliquely references greater competition. It refers to having to bring over foreign doctors, but that's probably a factor of (a) insufficient places in the UK; (b) UK junior doctors able to get better roles/pay/conditions abroad; and (c) many UK-born doctors now having 'foreign' names, which is guaranteed to confuse your average Daily Mail reader. hehe

Have a read here - 7,100 places per year for home students (vs 30,000 applications - THAT is why top-grade students are being turned away), only 500 for international students.
https://www.themedicportal.com/blog/ucas-applicati...


banghead FFS, what's happened to people's critical reading and reasoning skills??? I mean, the Wail is a bigoted comic - surely linking to it should be grounds for immediate discrediting of your argument.

xeny

4,419 posts

80 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
Steve H said:
Is that part actually true? Surely if there was more demand from Uk students that were hitting the right standards the Unis would ramp up their capacity?
The courses are expensive, complex and tied in with NHS capacity for various bits of practical coursework. They aren't trivial to set up or expand. I can't remember the details, but I think it took University of Kent over 5 years to get a course set up?

Steve H

5,373 posts

197 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
xeny said:
Steve H said:
Is that part actually true? Surely if there was more demand from Uk students that were hitting the right standards the Unis would ramp up their capacity?
The courses are expensive, complex and tied in with NHS capacity for various bits of practical coursework. They aren't trivial to set up or expand. I can't remember the details, but I think it took University of Kent over 5 years to get a course set up?
I’m just asking the question but if that’s the answer I would have to suggest that we’ve been short of doctors for a while now………..

modeller

448 posts

168 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
To train as a consultant takes a minimum of 10yrs post degree. This needs training places to be available increasing in responsibility during those 10yrs. To suddenly turn on the taps at the degree level just isn't enough .. as you'd then up with loads of doctors waiting for training places (as does happen today). It will take decades to expand capacity :-(
I do find the private/NHS setup in the UK weird.

BandOfBrothers

167 posts

2 months

Thursday 16th May
quotequote all
havoc said:
BandOfBrothers said:
Call me a cynic, but we're fked no matter what.
...

However, this country has been in decline from those heady heights since the early 1900s ...

Our competitive advantages are largely gone. The speed of information and learning has never been faster. We simply cannot expect to maintain significantly greater living standards than the rest of the world any more.

Chin up though, eh?!
That applies to the rest of Europe also, and to the US to a degree (although they have the ubiquitous dollar and the largest domestic market in the world to buoy them up).
Only we've just outed ourselves from the EU, which can delay the inevitable by acting in concert and levy tariffs on outsiders whilst trading tariff free with each other. A brilliant move on our part.

And the US is big enough, with sufficient natural resources, population and a much lower regulation environment to stave off the worst of it for much longer than us.