ev at the cost of everything else
Discussion
the push for ev is greater than ever, but what about alternative options, ev doesnt work for everyone, it never will.
plus it mainly uses fossil fuel to generate, sure there are wind farms/ solar etc, but its not always windy or sunny, so a non starter for day to day use.
plus, live in a flat etc where you cant charge from home, expensive.
so ev is a bit of a niche market, sure it works for sum, but not all.
petrol works for most people, and we have the infrastructure in place.
why are bio fuels etc not being pushed more
the fact that the government had to incentivize ev in the first place shows it isnt really a cure all fix.
market forces usually does that.
plus it mainly uses fossil fuel to generate, sure there are wind farms/ solar etc, but its not always windy or sunny, so a non starter for day to day use.
plus, live in a flat etc where you cant charge from home, expensive.
so ev is a bit of a niche market, sure it works for sum, but not all.
petrol works for most people, and we have the infrastructure in place.
why are bio fuels etc not being pushed more
the fact that the government had to incentivize ev in the first place shows it isnt really a cure all fix.
market forces usually does that.
richhead said:
the push for ev is greater than ever, but what about alternative options, ev doesnt work for everyone, it never will.
plus it mainly uses fossil fuel to generate, sure there are wind farms/ solar etc, but its not always windy or sunny, so a non starter for day to day use.
plus, live in a flat etc where you cant charge from home, expensive.
so ev is a bit of a niche market, sure it works for sum, but not all.
petrol works for most people, and we have the infrastructure in place.
why are bio fuels etc not being pushed more
the fact that the government had to incentivize ev in the first place shows it isnt really a cure all fix.
market forces usually does that.
Don't worry, we have 11 more years yet until you cannot buy a new ICE car. I'm sure people said the same when the motor car came out and they had to buy their fuel from a chemist.plus it mainly uses fossil fuel to generate, sure there are wind farms/ solar etc, but its not always windy or sunny, so a non starter for day to day use.
plus, live in a flat etc where you cant charge from home, expensive.
so ev is a bit of a niche market, sure it works for sum, but not all.
petrol works for most people, and we have the infrastructure in place.
why are bio fuels etc not being pushed more
the fact that the government had to incentivize ev in the first place shows it isnt really a cure all fix.
market forces usually does that.
As for infrastructure, the last time I looked, electric is literally everywhere. The infrastructure is unrecognisable from 2, 3 or 4 years ago.
Home charging is a bonus for sure, but this doesn't mean it's a niche product. Lots of people have the ability to home charge.
Maracus said:
Don't worry, we have 11 more years yet until you cannot buy a new ICE car. I'm sure people said the same when the motor car came out and they had to buy their fuel from a chemist.
As for infrastructure, the last time I looked, electric is literally everywhere. The infrastructure is unrecognisable from 2, 3 or 4 years ago.
Home charging is a bonus for sure, but this doesn't mean it's a niche product. Lots of people have the ability to home charge.
What puzzles me more is the fact that the gov is not pushing for V2G to be compulsory and for more battery storage/EV to be subsidized. Imagine if instead of pushing HS2, the current gov just gave £1bn free battery storage and/or solar panels to households.As for infrastructure, the last time I looked, electric is literally everywhere. The infrastructure is unrecognisable from 2, 3 or 4 years ago.
Home charging is a bonus for sure, but this doesn't mean it's a niche product. Lots of people have the ability to home charge.
That's about 1GWh battery storage or 1GW solar...
Edited by Pistonheadsdicoverer on Tuesday 14th May 16:53
richhead said:
why are bio fuels etc not being pushed more
To put it bluntly, your post is predicated on a complete lack of understanding of how science, technology, engineering and maths is making things the way they are, not politicians.For example, 1 acre of land will yield enough biofuel for just 1 car.
There are only 60 million acres in the whole if the UK and 30 million cars...
The same acre could yield enough solar electricity to power a hundred EVs.
If it's an acre of seabed (with an offshore turbine on it) it's thousands of EVs.
One wind turbine can power several thousand cars, but only if you don't try to get all clever because 'pop-pop, bang-bang', and try to turn that electricity into some sort of magical unicorn poo.
Basil Brush said:
Zetec-S said:
I completely agree with the OP, it's outrageous. Why has no-one thought to start a thread on this subject before? 
Don't worry, we have 11 more years until these threads stop. richhead said:
petrol works for most people,
It doesn't work for me. It's dirty, noisy, ridiculously expensive and wildly inefficient. Bear in mind that, while burning that ridiculously expensive fuel in a complicated, high maintenance mechanism that's derived from the steam engine, about three quarters of it is wasted in generating heat. Ever more people are convinced of these facts.richhead said:
and we have the infrastructure in place.
I, like many other EV users, have my own EV infrastructure in place. The number of public charging stations is growing rapidly. It's hard to imagine for some people (because change), but in the not too distant future, the number of filing stations will drop to a point where it's much more convenient to run an EV. Petrol will have smaller economies of scale, fuel prices will rise, making the running of EV's even cheaper, relatively.Welcome to the future. Embracing it is much less painful than being a luddite.
Edited by tr3a on Tuesday 14th May 19:04
richhead said:
the push for ev is greater than ever, but what about alternative options, ev doesnt work for everyone, it never will.
plus it mainly uses fossil fuel to generate, sure there are wind farms/ solar etc, but its not always windy or sunny, so a non starter for day to day use.
plus, live in a flat etc where you cant charge from home, expensive.
so ev is a bit of a niche market, sure it works for sum, but not all.
petrol works for most people, and we have the infrastructure in place.
why are bio fuels etc not being pushed more
the fact that the government had to incentivize ev in the first place shows it isnt really a cure all fix.
market forces usually does that.
Oh come on, GTFOH. EV troll bingo full house, Mr Richard Head.plus it mainly uses fossil fuel to generate, sure there are wind farms/ solar etc, but its not always windy or sunny, so a non starter for day to day use.
plus, live in a flat etc where you cant charge from home, expensive.
so ev is a bit of a niche market, sure it works for sum, but not all.
petrol works for most people, and we have the infrastructure in place.
why are bio fuels etc not being pushed more
the fact that the government had to incentivize ev in the first place shows it isnt really a cure all fix.
market forces usually does that.
Parrots due all round!
GT9 said:
richhead said:
why are bio fuels etc not being pushed more
To put it bluntly, your post is predicated on a complete lack of understanding of how science, technology, engineering and maths is making things the way they are, not politicians.For example, 1 acre of land will yield enough biofuel for just 1 car.
There are only 60 million acres in the whole if the UK and 30 million cars...
The same acre could yield enough solar electricity to power a hundred EVs.
If it's an acre of seabed (with an offshore turbine on it) it's thousands of EVs.
One wind turbine can power several thousand cars, but only if you don't try to get all clever because 'pop-pop, bang-bang', and try to turn that electricity into some sort of magical unicorn poo.
k about "efficiency" before so why now?TX.
dvs_dave said:
richhead said:
the push for ev is greater than ever, but what about alternative options, ev doesnt work for everyone, it never will.
plus it mainly uses fossil fuel to generate, sure there are wind farms/ solar etc, but its not always windy or sunny, so a non starter for day to day use.
plus, live in a flat etc where you cant charge from home, expensive.
so ev is a bit of a niche market, sure it works for sum, but not all.
petrol works for most people, and we have the infrastructure in place.
why are bio fuels etc not being pushed more
the fact that the government had to incentivize ev in the first place shows it isnt really a cure all fix.
market forces usually does that.
Oh come on, GTFOH. EV troll bingo full house, Mr Richard Head.plus it mainly uses fossil fuel to generate, sure there are wind farms/ solar etc, but its not always windy or sunny, so a non starter for day to day use.
plus, live in a flat etc where you cant charge from home, expensive.
so ev is a bit of a niche market, sure it works for sum, but not all.
petrol works for most people, and we have the infrastructure in place.
why are bio fuels etc not being pushed more
the fact that the government had to incentivize ev in the first place shows it isnt really a cure all fix.
market forces usually does that.
Parrots due all round!
He forgot about his need to drive 700 miles each weekend without stopping for a piss - poor attempt really
richhead said:
plus it mainly uses fossil fuel to generate, .
This bit is factually incorrect. In 2023, roughly a third of the UK's electricity was generated by burning fossil fuels:
(Source the National Grid website)
Obviously, some of that import will be fossil fuels, bumping it perhaps slightly above a third, but not by much because we mainly import from France (which is almost entirely nuclear) and Norway (which is mostly hydro).
And this year so far, the gas share has dropped by a further couple of percent.
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 14th May 20:07
Terminator X said:
Ignoring the CO2 argument no one gave a fk about "efficiency" before so why now?
TX.
Third time lucky?k about "efficiency" before so why now?TX.
Here goes.
We don't have to put the energy in oil, we just dig it up.
Renewable power comes from radiation, solar or nuclear.
Solar energy also powers the wind.
Capturing that energy and turning it into electricity requires brand new infrastructure and vehicles (full capacity e-fuel will take far too long to save existing cars, by about 50 years).
We then have to turn that electricity into forward motion.
ALL of the following are directly related to the efficiency of conversion from the point of capture to the turning of the wheels:
- Infrastructure manufacturing cost and carbon footprint.
- Time taken to install the infrastructure.
- Ongoing operating cost and carbon footprint.
It's really not rocket surgery to accept that either 3 or 6 times as many wind turbines to do the same job, plus the entire downstream network of further infrastructure to convert that electricity to hydrogen or e-fuel is bats
t crazy.The only reason anyone even talks about is because 'soul' and 'feel', which doesn't even apply to hydrogen anyway.
Those are not valid environmental reasons.
Cost, timeframe and lifetime carbon footprint are basically all that matters.
Efficiency, renewability and recyclability are key to delivering those three things.
Basil Brush said:
Zetec-S said:
I completely agree with the OP, it's outrageous. Why has no-one thought to start a thread on this subject before?
Don't worry, we have 11 more years until these threads stop. Things change. Maybe EV's will be the dominant player by the time the enforcement comes in? Maybe the international monetary system will collapse by then?
2035...
We will probably still have 20 million petrol and hybrid cars on the road, of all ages.
We will also probably have 10 million EVs of all ages.
And possibly a couple of million diesel soldiering on.
Everybody will still have a choice, nobody gets left behind.
2050...
Harder to predict obviously.
What is likely is the EV range, cost and charging time, as well as access to affordable, widely-available, charging will be unrecognisable by today's standards.
Interesting petrol cars will be rarer, but probably still in the millions, and expensive to run for those who insist on doing so.
Including possibly me, although I'll be getting on a bit so I probably won't even remember posting this.
Everybody still has a choice, nobody gets left behind.
Except maybe petrol car drivers insisting that their car must be new.
Not going to lose sleep over them, sorry.
Anyone still demanding a new diesel car to be sectioned.
We will probably still have 20 million petrol and hybrid cars on the road, of all ages.
We will also probably have 10 million EVs of all ages.
And possibly a couple of million diesel soldiering on.
Everybody will still have a choice, nobody gets left behind.
2050...
Harder to predict obviously.
What is likely is the EV range, cost and charging time, as well as access to affordable, widely-available, charging will be unrecognisable by today's standards.
Interesting petrol cars will be rarer, but probably still in the millions, and expensive to run for those who insist on doing so.
Including possibly me, although I'll be getting on a bit so I probably won't even remember posting this.
Everybody still has a choice, nobody gets left behind.
Except maybe petrol car drivers insisting that their car must be new.
Not going to lose sleep over them, sorry.
Anyone still demanding a new diesel car to be sectioned.
off_again said:
Basil Brush said:
Zetec-S said:
I completely agree with the OP, it's outrageous. Why has no-one thought to start a thread on this subject before?
Don't worry, we have 11 more years until these threads stop. Things change. Maybe EV's will be the dominant player by the time the enforcement comes in? Maybe the international monetary system will collapse by then?
delta0 said:
off_again said:
Basil Brush said:
Zetec-S said:
I completely agree with the OP, it's outrageous. Why has no-one thought to start a thread on this subject before?
Don't worry, we have 11 more years until these threads stop. Things change. Maybe EV's will be the dominant player by the time the enforcement comes in? Maybe the international monetary system will collapse by then?
In reality, this is going to slip and the world isnt quite ready for it. ICE vehicles will continue to get more efficient and hybrids have some way to go also. But predicting that everyone will be EV in 2035 is somewhat fanciful. I see this slipping to 2040 or later in reality, but who knows, I dont have a crystal ball.
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