EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
TheBinarySheep said:
I did some quick sums on a basic Corsa EV vs Petrol. Both 2021 models, both with around 35k on the clock.
Total cost over 5 years for the ICE (loan + fuel) over 8,000 mile per year was £17,240
Total cost over 5 years for the EV (loan + elec) over 8,000 mile per year was £14,249
EV works out at nearly £3k cheaper over the lifetime of the car.
After the 5 year ownership, the ICE Corsa with 75,000 would be worth somewhere in the region of £3k. So even taking depreciation into account, the EV would have to have a value of ZERO or lower for the ICE to come out on top financially.
The EV has more power and torque, and I reckon nicer to drive. The biggest downside is the range, quoted 209 mile vs the a range of 500 for the petrol version. If you've got home charging, and are mainly driving locally, I can't see why anyone would choose the petrol version.
Have you taken into account servicing for the ICE?Total cost over 5 years for the ICE (loan + fuel) over 8,000 mile per year was £17,240
Total cost over 5 years for the EV (loan + elec) over 8,000 mile per year was £14,249
EV works out at nearly £3k cheaper over the lifetime of the car.
After the 5 year ownership, the ICE Corsa with 75,000 would be worth somewhere in the region of £3k. So even taking depreciation into account, the EV would have to have a value of ZERO or lower for the ICE to come out on top financially.
The EV has more power and torque, and I reckon nicer to drive. The biggest downside is the range, quoted 209 mile vs the a range of 500 for the petrol version. If you've got home charging, and are mainly driving locally, I can't see why anyone would choose the petrol version.
BricktopST205 said:
Why waste so much money on a used Mokka just to get on the EV bandwagon? Just buy something slightly older and ICE.
Why be a beta tester for some technology that isn't full developed yet.
You could get a year or two older golf with a petrol engine that will do 50mpg for about ten grand and pocket the rest for fuel bills which will give you 25-30000 miles before it costs the same as the EV not to mention the residuals will be a lot stronger so will most likely be closer to 40000 miles when factoring that in.
But a year or two older Golf won't let you pocket all that difference. It'll eat some of it in more expensive servicing and maintenance.Why be a beta tester for some technology that isn't full developed yet.
You could get a year or two older golf with a petrol engine that will do 50mpg for about ten grand and pocket the rest for fuel bills which will give you 25-30000 miles before it costs the same as the EV not to mention the residuals will be a lot stronger so will most likely be closer to 40000 miles when factoring that in.
Following your logic, why not buy an £8k Golf. A £6k Golf? A £4k Golf? Because the cheaper you buy, the more its likely to cost you in maintenance in repairs.
People can do their own sums, in my case running a used Nissan Leaf for the last 7 years and 70k miles has saved me a fortune in fuel and other running costs *compared with an equivalent ICE car at the same purchase price*, that purchase price having been, drumroll.....£10k.
Sure, I could have bought a £250 1991 Mazda 323. I would probably be a few quid up overall. But it would have been off the road frequently and I can't be arsed with that - there's value for some people in having the newest, and most reliable car they can afford, even if it costs more than a car which is cheaper to buy.
Some people find EVs to be the best solution for their needs, wants and budgets. I'm sorry if that seems to upset some people.
_Hoppers said:
Have you taken into account servicing for the ICE?
I've not taken any servicing into account. I know the likes of Tesla don't require any servicing, but I'm sure legacy manufacturers like Vauxhall are highly likely to still want you to get an EV serviced at similar periods to an ICE. Obviously, you don't have to as there's little to service, but they might argue that you have to service it to keep the battery warranty, so I assumed similar servicing costs for EV/ICE.Motoring enthusiast forum descends into comparing the costs of running a Corsa over the first 3 or 5 years.
Oh dear.
I would go EV on a Corsa just because vauxhall engines are normally s
t and a 3 or 5 year old Corsa is about ready for the scrapper. Maybe the EV/stellantis influence might make it a better long term bet.
Oh dear.
I would go EV on a Corsa just because vauxhall engines are normally s
t and a 3 or 5 year old Corsa is about ready for the scrapper. Maybe the EV/stellantis influence might make it a better long term bet.LowTread said:
Motoring enthusiast forum descends into comparing the costs of running a Corsa over the first 3 or 5 years.
Oh dear.
I would go EV on a Corsa just because vauxhall engines are normally st and a 3 or 5 year old Corsa is about ready for the scrapper. Maybe the EV/stellantis influence might make it a better long term bet.
The problem is, because this is an enthusiast forum people forget that we're a small minority of vehicle owners. In most cases, what we like and look for in a car isn't the same as what the average driver is looking for, so when people are knocking EV's they're knocking them from their enthusiast perspective without taking the average person into consideration.Oh dear.
I would go EV on a Corsa just because vauxhall engines are normally s
t and a 3 or 5 year old Corsa is about ready for the scrapper. Maybe the EV/stellantis influence might make it a better long term bet.I have no problem with someone on here saying that they've got an M3 and they won't be switching to EV for x,y,z reason, I get it. What I have issue with is the dismissive attitude towards EV's as a way to get the average person around.
TheBinarySheep said:
What I have issue with is the dismissive attitude towards EV's as a way to get the average person around.
'I like engines therefore everybody must also have an engine'.This whole thing is about removing the undesirable characteristics (to most people) of owning an engine.
Allowing those who like engines to continuing enjoying them in a low key, low impact manner.
CO2, NOx, CO, vibration, noise, oil consumption, servicing, tens of tons of lifetime fuel, gearboxes, exhausts, fuel pumps.
These things only appeal to a small group of people.
And of course boat-towing hypermilers, let's not forget them.
GT9 said:
'I like engines therefore everybody must also have an engine'.
This whole thing is about removing the undesirable characteristics (to most people) of owning an engine.
Allowing those who like engines to continuing enjoying them in a low key, low impact manner.
CO2, NOx, CO, vibration, noise, oil consumption, servicing, tens of tons of lifetime fuel, gearboxes, exhausts, fuel pumps.
These things only appeal to a small group of people.
And of course boat-towing hypermilers, let's not forget them.
Exactly.This whole thing is about removing the undesirable characteristics (to most people) of owning an engine.
Allowing those who like engines to continuing enjoying them in a low key, low impact manner.
CO2, NOx, CO, vibration, noise, oil consumption, servicing, tens of tons of lifetime fuel, gearboxes, exhausts, fuel pumps.
These things only appeal to a small group of people.
And of course boat-towing hypermilers, let's not forget them.
There's certain aspects of some ICE models that you simply can't replace in an EV, and to some people those characteristics are high up on their list of priorities. I get it, I understand it, I agree with it.
But, for example, my wife. She wants a car that looks good, has plenty of power for daily driving, is comfortable and isn't expensive to run. She likes the look of the Vauxhall Mokka, so if she decided that she wanted a Mokka, then from her perspective, there is absolutely ZERO reason why she shouldn't consider the EV version. The petrol version fits her criteria, so does the EV version, but the EV version would be cheaper during her ownership, and I'd argue it would be nicer to drive.
On the other hand, if her priority was something that sounded damn good and felt engaging with a manual gearbox, then at present no EV would really work for her.
Edited by TheBinarySheep on Wednesday 1st May 11:15
Any reason why the world’s more abundant and reliable rapid charger provider (outside China) has just fired all of its staff who support the charging network?
How does that sit with unlimited demand for EVs and a need for growth? Bizarre.
I’m still on the fence and every time I seriously think about switching stuff like this puts me right off.
Seems so disjointed and so many mixed messages from manufacturers
How does that sit with unlimited demand for EVs and a need for growth? Bizarre.
I’m still on the fence and every time I seriously think about switching stuff like this puts me right off.
Seems so disjointed and so many mixed messages from manufacturers
CivicDuties said:
BricktopST205 said:
Why waste so much money on a used Mokka just to get on the EV bandwagon? Just buy something slightly older and ICE.
Why be a beta tester for some technology that isn't full developed yet.
You could get a year or two older golf with a petrol engine that will do 50mpg for about ten grand and pocket the rest for fuel bills which will give you 25-30000 miles before it costs the same as the EV not to mention the residuals will be a lot stronger so will most likely be closer to 40000 miles when factoring that in.
But a year or two older Golf won't let you pocket all that difference. It'll eat some of it in more expensive servicing and maintenance.Why be a beta tester for some technology that isn't full developed yet.
You could get a year or two older golf with a petrol engine that will do 50mpg for about ten grand and pocket the rest for fuel bills which will give you 25-30000 miles before it costs the same as the EV not to mention the residuals will be a lot stronger so will most likely be closer to 40000 miles when factoring that in.
Following your logic, why not buy an £8k Golf. A £6k Golf? A £4k Golf? Because the cheaper you buy, the more its likely to cost you in maintenance in repairs.
People can do their own sums, in my case running a used Nissan Leaf for the last 7 years and 70k miles has saved me a fortune in fuel and other running costs *compared with an equivalent ICE car at the same purchase price*, that purchase price having been, drumroll.....£10k.
Sure, I could have bought a £250 1991 Mazda 323. I would probably be a few quid up overall. But it would have been off the road frequently and I can't be arsed with that - there's value for some people in having the newest, and most reliable car they can afford, even if it costs more than a car which is cheaper to buy.
Some people find EVs to be the best solution for their needs, wants and budgets. I'm sorry if that seems to upset some people.
LivLL said:
Any reason why the world’s more abundant and reliable rapid charger provider (outside China) has just fired all of its staff who support the charging network?
How does that sit with unlimited demand for EVs and a need for growth? Bizarre.
I’m still on the fence and every time I seriously think about switching stuff like this puts me right off.
Seems so disjointed and so many mixed messages from manufacturers
My take on this is, I think they thought the uptake of EV's would be quicker that it really is. Investment companies have invested huge sums and they're not seeing returns in the timescales that they thought they would. How does that sit with unlimited demand for EVs and a need for growth? Bizarre.
I’m still on the fence and every time I seriously think about switching stuff like this puts me right off.
Seems so disjointed and so many mixed messages from manufacturers
It's a combination of things, the media (or oil companies) publishing articles that are constantly bashing EV's and putting people off. EV's are still relatively new, and many people won't be willing to change whilst the technology is so rapidly developing. Whilst the charging network has improved and is getting better, charging stations don't meet the needs of everyone, and destination charging hasn't really taken off enough to get those without the ability to home-charge onboard.
At present, EV's probably meet the needs of a smallish percentage of drivers, but as technology and the charging infrastructure improves, that percentage will get bigger. It's just at present, it's probably getting bigger less incrementally than some thought.
Take that with a pinch of salt though, that's just my take, backed up by nothing other than a hunch.
Edited by TheBinarySheep on Wednesday 1st May 11:22
biggbn said:
I ran bangers for years and apart from an Uno Diesel that kept snapping its fan belt, a Renault 11 Diesle that cracked fuel pipes until the right 'stay' was found and a glorious e39 BMW that never let me down but passed oil everywhere, I've never been stranded or off the road. Buy carefully and you'll be surprised how effective a cheapo can be
Experiences is different from person to person though. I've had fairly new and old cars off the road for various reasons over the years, from snapped timing belts, thermostat issues, suspension issues (under warranty), DPF issues, and gearbox issues. Most cars were well looked after and serviced.On the other hand, I know people who buy fairly cheap cars, do little maintenance but have hardly any issues at all.
ACCYSTAN said:
TheBinarySheep said:
I did some quick sums on a basic Corsa EV vs Petrol. Both 2021 models, both with around 35k on the clock.
Total cost over 5 years for the ICE (loan + fuel) over 8,000 mile per year was £17,240
Total cost over 5 years for the EV (loan + elec) over 8,000 mile per year was £14,249
EV works out at nearly £3k cheaper over the lifetime of the car.
After the 5 year ownership, the ICE Corsa with 75,000 would be worth somewhere in the region of £3k. So even taking depreciation into account, the EV would have to have a value of ZERO or lower for the ICE to come out on top financially.
The EV has more power and torque, and I reckon nicer to drive. The biggest downside is the range, quoted 209 mile vs the a range of 500 for the petrol version. If you've got home charging, and are mainly driving locally, I can't see why anyone would choose the petrol version.
This is not very useful Total cost over 5 years for the ICE (loan + fuel) over 8,000 mile per year was £17,240
Total cost over 5 years for the EV (loan + elec) over 8,000 mile per year was £14,249
EV works out at nearly £3k cheaper over the lifetime of the car.
After the 5 year ownership, the ICE Corsa with 75,000 would be worth somewhere in the region of £3k. So even taking depreciation into account, the EV would have to have a value of ZERO or lower for the ICE to come out on top financially.
The EV has more power and torque, and I reckon nicer to drive. The biggest downside is the range, quoted 209 mile vs the a range of 500 for the petrol version. If you've got home charging, and are mainly driving locally, I can't see why anyone would choose the petrol version.
- you don’t know future electric and petrol prices
- electric Corsa is nearly double the insurance
- electric Corsa battery going wrong will be hideously expensive
- electric Corsa battery degradation will be a big issue for resale value
TheBinarySheep said:
My take on this is, I think they thought the uptake of EV's would be quicker that it really is. Investment companies have invested huge sums and they're not seeing returns in the timescales that they thought they would.
It's a combination of things, the media (or oil companies) publishing articles that are constantly bashing EV's and putting people off. EV's are still relatively new, and many people won't be willing to change whilst the technology is so rapidly developing. Whilst the charging network has improved and is getting better, charging stations don't meet the needs of everyone, and destination charging hasn't really taken off enough to get those without the ability to home-charge onboard.
At present, EV's probably meet the needs of a smallish percentage of drivers, but as technology and the charging infrastructure improves, that percentage will get bigger. It's just at present, it's probably getting bigger less incrementally than some thought.
Take that with a pinch of salt though, that's just my take, backed up by nothing other than a hunch.
I don't really see an ads from oil companies or media about EV's being bad, sure there are many within the EV bubble who search out negative articles and spread them around to show how Big Oil (hate that term) is destroying the EV adoption.It's a combination of things, the media (or oil companies) publishing articles that are constantly bashing EV's and putting people off. EV's are still relatively new, and many people won't be willing to change whilst the technology is so rapidly developing. Whilst the charging network has improved and is getting better, charging stations don't meet the needs of everyone, and destination charging hasn't really taken off enough to get those without the ability to home-charge onboard.
At present, EV's probably meet the needs of a smallish percentage of drivers, but as technology and the charging infrastructure improves, that percentage will get bigger. It's just at present, it's probably getting bigger less incrementally than some thought.
Take that with a pinch of salt though, that's just my take, backed up by nothing other than a hunch.
Edited by TheBinarySheep on Wednesday 1st May 11:22
In general daily life though, unless I go specifically in search of negative articles I don't see it. Top Gear, Autocar etc.. are full of EV reviews now. I do keep a keen eye on Tesla hence the wierd supercharger firing news and I listen to many podcasts so keep abreast of the motoring news EV or not.
I totally agree that the investment in superchargers must have been huge and return on investment can't be that good as the Tesla forums and users are always telling us they're empty and so easy to find a spare one.
Maybe it's just Musk being a petulant child, maybe he sold out to China on his last visit. Whatever the reason it can't be good for EV adoption.
Once the dust settles and it's clear the tech is slowing and becoming mature I'll be right in there with an EV purchase. Right now, it seems like the wild west with crazy claims and fanatical users not helping by being somewhat biased and not particularly reasonable when people give reasons why they don't want to switch.
Thankfully we have a choice and can still drive combustion for now.
Tony33 said:
bit pedantic but this is a motoring enthusiast forum after all, there is no EV M equivalent to an M3/M4. The M Division freely admit that won’t come until the next generation of EV architects due in the next couple of years and we will see what the engineers come out with.
It is a big challenge but should be exciting to see what can be achieved with electrification in terms of driving dynamics beyond the raw performance which seems easy now.
There will be old school drivers like me who mourn the loss of ICE and the sounds and feel but many enthusiasts have gone through that to some degree with the downsizing of cylinder count. It is the future.
We aren’t there yet and in some cases like the M3 if that is what you desire from a pure driving experience there won’t be alternative EVs. These are very small use cases, most of us even a driving enthusiasts would accept that M Performance is all we would ever want (and more) from a car but it is worth recognising valid reasons why some would not see it as equivalent. Many potential M3/M4 purchasers wouldn’t consider the running cost savings as a tipping point, the cars are too different.
BMW have already tested quad motor i4 back in 2022. We won't have to wait too long before M3/M4 ICE cars become a relic of the past. Hooray, I can't wait, can you? It is a big challenge but should be exciting to see what can be achieved with electrification in terms of driving dynamics beyond the raw performance which seems easy now.
There will be old school drivers like me who mourn the loss of ICE and the sounds and feel but many enthusiasts have gone through that to some degree with the downsizing of cylinder count. It is the future.
We aren’t there yet and in some cases like the M3 if that is what you desire from a pure driving experience there won’t be alternative EVs. These are very small use cases, most of us even a driving enthusiasts would accept that M Performance is all we would ever want (and more) from a car but it is worth recognising valid reasons why some would not see it as equivalent. Many potential M3/M4 purchasers wouldn’t consider the running cost savings as a tipping point, the cars are too different.
Frank Weber, head of BMW development, told Auto Express in 2023 that the next M3 will be offered with all-electric power (alongside a petrol-powered equivalent) and its four electric motors could provide up to 1,341bhp.
BMW says the quad-motor’s all-wheel drive xDrive system “opens up completely new possibilities for infinitely variable, extremely precise and at the same time very fast distribution of drive torque”. In other words, you can expect the new car’s chassis to be extremely dynamic and highly adjustable.
New BMW i4 M Quad motor - rear5
Dirk Häcker, Head of Development at BMW’s M division says, “Electrification opens up completely new degrees of freedom. We can already see that we can exploit this potential to the maximum, so that our high-performance sports cars will continue to offer the M-typical and incomparable combination of dynamics, agility and precision in the locally emission-free future.”
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/i4/358626/hot-ne...
LivLL said:
I don't really see an ads from oil companies or media about EV's being bad, sure there are many within the EV bubble who search out negative articles and spread them around to show how Big Oil (hate that term) is destroying the EV adoption.
In general daily life though, unless I go specifically in search of negative articles I don't see it. Top Gear, Autocar etc.. are full of EV reviews now. I do keep a keen eye on Tesla hence the wierd supercharger firing news and I listen to many podcasts so keep abreast of the motoring news EV or not.
I totally agree that the investment in superchargers must have been huge and return on investment can't be that good as the Tesla forums and users are always telling us they're empty and so easy to find a spare one.
Maybe it's just Musk being a petulant child, maybe he sold out to China on his last visit. Whatever the reason it can't be good for EV adoption.
Once the dust settles and it's clear the tech is slowing and becoming mature I'll be right in there with an EV purchase. Right now, it seems like the wild west with crazy claims and fanatical users not helping by being somewhat biased and not particularly reasonable when people give reasons why they don't want to switch.
Thankfully we have a choice and can still drive combustion for now.
We're on a path to EV's replacing the majority of new ICE vehicles for personal transport. Some time simply won't or can't accept that. No one knows how long it'll take to get down the path, but we're on it. Sometimes we'll move forward, sometimes we'll take a couple of steps back, but eventually we'll get there.In general daily life though, unless I go specifically in search of negative articles I don't see it. Top Gear, Autocar etc.. are full of EV reviews now. I do keep a keen eye on Tesla hence the wierd supercharger firing news and I listen to many podcasts so keep abreast of the motoring news EV or not.
I totally agree that the investment in superchargers must have been huge and return on investment can't be that good as the Tesla forums and users are always telling us they're empty and so easy to find a spare one.
Maybe it's just Musk being a petulant child, maybe he sold out to China on his last visit. Whatever the reason it can't be good for EV adoption.
Once the dust settles and it's clear the tech is slowing and becoming mature I'll be right in there with an EV purchase. Right now, it seems like the wild west with crazy claims and fanatical users not helping by being somewhat biased and not particularly reasonable when people give reasons why they don't want to switch.
Thankfully we have a choice and can still drive combustion for now.
TheBinarySheep said:
biggbn said:
I ran bangers for years and apart from an Uno Diesel that kept snapping its fan belt, a Renault 11 Diesle that cracked fuel pipes until the right 'stay' was found and a glorious e39 BMW that never let me down but passed oil everywhere, I've never been stranded or off the road. Buy carefully and you'll be surprised how effective a cheapo can be
Experiences is different from person to person though. I've had fairly new and old cars off the road for various reasons over the years, from snapped timing belts, thermostat issues, suspension issues (under warranty), DPF issues, and gearbox issues. Most cars were well looked after and serviced.On the other hand, I know people who buy fairly cheap cars, do little maintenance but have hardly any issues at all.
It's always been thus that's why some people buy new an under guarantee, and some people are happy in old bangers. The fuel/method of propulsion is neither here nor there, other than EV being far less complex in terms of the amount of moving parts which can go wrong, and therefore far more reliable than ICE.
I've seen loads of people mentioning the Corsa. This would be a great comparison if you could go anywhere in the EV Corsa, but aside from popping to the shops it's useless.
It's based on the 208 and there are forums/social media bits everywhere about their WLTP range (210 miles) being nonsense and most owners getting around 120 miles. Having used a couple a couple of times they're hateful and this was exactly my experience (I can detail if people are desperate) and that means you need to use public fast charging and with the tiny battery it makes them more costly, and more inconvenient than the petrol one
The technology is coming on so well that, if the 2nd hand market continues to drop to a reasonable range, these kinds of cars will be on the scrap heap far earlier than their counterparts. An unfortunate, but necessary step to get to the ultimate goal.
It's based on the 208 and there are forums/social media bits everywhere about their WLTP range (210 miles) being nonsense and most owners getting around 120 miles. Having used a couple a couple of times they're hateful and this was exactly my experience (I can detail if people are desperate) and that means you need to use public fast charging and with the tiny battery it makes them more costly, and more inconvenient than the petrol one
The technology is coming on so well that, if the 2nd hand market continues to drop to a reasonable range, these kinds of cars will be on the scrap heap far earlier than their counterparts. An unfortunate, but necessary step to get to the ultimate goal.
ACCYSTAN said:
This is not very useful
Yes. And the purchase price is likely higher, resale value WILL be zilch as it will be old tech in 3 years.- you don’t know future electric and petrol prices
- electric Corsa is nearly double the insurance
- electric Corsa battery going wrong will be hideously expensive
- electric Corsa battery degradation will be a big issue for resale value
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