Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?
Discussion
borcy said:
Wombat3 said:
Figures are from the ONS so give them the benefit of the doubt that they are probably on to something.
Its hard to see how frontline health/police/fire service & education staff are suddenly being measured as less productive or indeed how they could be.
Which leaves the administrative end of the public sector......
Meanwhile the PCS union is demanding a huge pay rise, longer holidays and a shorter working week with no loss of pay. Large swathes of public sector staff are known to be refusing to return to their offices (I believe HMRC is one of the worst offenders). The mindset is clear enough. They all want more for doing less.
Its dressed up as people wanting a better "work-life balance" whereas what they are actually taking is a better work-reward equation.
We also have extraordinary numbers claiming long term illness which can't be helping.
In a nutshell, the main cause (IMO) is working (or not) from home which started during the pandemic, coupled with weak management.
Correcting that requires management with some spine AND the tools to enforce changes.
I don't know how you measure the efficiency of the fire brigade etc. But it does include them and the rest of the public sector. I don't think focusing on the civil service exclusively is going to help unpick the numbers. Its hard to see how frontline health/police/fire service & education staff are suddenly being measured as less productive or indeed how they could be.
Which leaves the administrative end of the public sector......
Meanwhile the PCS union is demanding a huge pay rise, longer holidays and a shorter working week with no loss of pay. Large swathes of public sector staff are known to be refusing to return to their offices (I believe HMRC is one of the worst offenders). The mindset is clear enough. They all want more for doing less.
Its dressed up as people wanting a better "work-life balance" whereas what they are actually taking is a better work-reward equation.
We also have extraordinary numbers claiming long term illness which can't be helping.
In a nutshell, the main cause (IMO) is working (or not) from home which started during the pandemic, coupled with weak management.
Correcting that requires management with some spine AND the tools to enforce changes.
What that implies is that the malaise on the admin side of the public sector is actually worse than the figures suggest.
Wombat3 said:
borcy said:
Wombat3 said:
Figures are from the ONS so give them the benefit of the doubt that they are probably on to something.
Its hard to see how frontline health/police/fire service & education staff are suddenly being measured as less productive or indeed how they could be.
Which leaves the administrative end of the public sector......
Meanwhile the PCS union is demanding a huge pay rise, longer holidays and a shorter working week with no loss of pay. Large swathes of public sector staff are known to be refusing to return to their offices (I believe HMRC is one of the worst offenders). The mindset is clear enough. They all want more for doing less.
Its dressed up as people wanting a better "work-life balance" whereas what they are actually taking is a better work-reward equation.
We also have extraordinary numbers claiming long term illness which can't be helping.
In a nutshell, the main cause (IMO) is working (or not) from home which started during the pandemic, coupled with weak management.
Correcting that requires management with some spine AND the tools to enforce changes.
I don't know how you measure the efficiency of the fire brigade etc. But it does include them and the rest of the public sector. I don't think focusing on the civil service exclusively is going to help unpick the numbers. Its hard to see how frontline health/police/fire service & education staff are suddenly being measured as less productive or indeed how they could be.
Which leaves the administrative end of the public sector......
Meanwhile the PCS union is demanding a huge pay rise, longer holidays and a shorter working week with no loss of pay. Large swathes of public sector staff are known to be refusing to return to their offices (I believe HMRC is one of the worst offenders). The mindset is clear enough. They all want more for doing less.
Its dressed up as people wanting a better "work-life balance" whereas what they are actually taking is a better work-reward equation.
We also have extraordinary numbers claiming long term illness which can't be helping.
In a nutshell, the main cause (IMO) is working (or not) from home which started during the pandemic, coupled with weak management.
Correcting that requires management with some spine AND the tools to enforce changes.
What that implies is that the malaise on the admin side of the public sector is actually worse than the figures suggest.
Although if you start with WFH = bad then it's a bit like putting the cart before the horse.
If we're looking for solutions, then starting at the conclusion and working back from there isn't a good idea.
borcy said:
Those on the coal face may have become less productive. There may well be numbers of those in non front line roles that do wfh within the fire service, police, nurses in non patient roles and so on.
Although if you start with WFH = bad then it's a bit like putting the cart before the horse.
If we're looking for solutions, then starting at the conclusion and working back from there isn't a good idea.
Its much less likely that they have given the evidence of what is going on in the rest of the PS.Although if you start with WFH = bad then it's a bit like putting the cart before the horse.
If we're looking for solutions, then starting at the conclusion and working back from there isn't a good idea.
Obviously there may be non frontline people in the Fire service etc that do WFH.
You asked for what I think the issue is and that's it. Things like the numbers refusing to come into the office are a clear sign of what's going on. ISTR reading there were even PS workers refusing to put laptop cameras on for Teams meetings because it was an invasion of their privacy or some s
t FFS" (Fine, go to the bloody office then).Far too much "Do as I likeee" , far too many people stealing a living with little recourse or risk and next to no jeopardy.
Wombat3 said:
borcy said:
Those on the coal face may have become less productive. There may well be numbers of those in non front line roles that do wfh within the fire service, police, nurses in non patient roles and so on.
Although if you start with WFH = bad then it's a bit like putting the cart before the horse.
If we're looking for solutions, then starting at the conclusion and working back from there isn't a good idea.
Its much less likely that they have given the evidence of what is going on in the rest of the PS.Although if you start with WFH = bad then it's a bit like putting the cart before the horse.
If we're looking for solutions, then starting at the conclusion and working back from there isn't a good idea.
Obviously there may be non frontline people in the Fire service etc that do WFH.
You asked for what I think the issue is and that's it. Things like the numbers refusing to come into the office are a clear sign of what's going on. ISTR reading there were even PS workers refusing to put laptop cameras on for Teams meetings because it was an invasion of their privacy or some s
t FFS" (Fine, go to the bloody office then).Far too much "Do as I likeee" , far too many people stealing a living with little recourse or risk and next to no jeopardy.
More broadly it'd be interesting to see what the actual reason is.
I acknowledge that some people do have a bee in their bonnets about WFH as a matter of principle.
smn159 said:
President Merkin said:
Interested in the mindset that looks on at a government falling apart in real time over culture wars, an obsession bordering on the prurient with immigration and demonising the vulnerable & thinks what the country needs is this but more.
Looks like the electorate agrees with you so far. Interesting that the Greens have nearly doubled their number of councillors. On this trajectory they are surely on course to be the main challenger to Labour in a couple of parliaments. Always good to see smaller parties doing so well and providing much needed choice
Labour had a150 seat majority when they were last in power, They still got massively kicked out in the last GE.
You don't seriously believe that all those tory voters, who cannot or will not vote tory in this years GE, are going to vote labour in this years farce do you?
And so the process goes on.
All I can say is if labour `do' honour all the promises `they' have made in the run up to this years election, we will all be in the land of milk and honey.
The only problem is, that this is what all parties in the last 50 years have been promising us, and not one, NOT ONE of them has delivered on their promises. and made the situation for the UK public any better.
Those that actually think they will, are just grasping at non existent straws.
Pan Pan Pan said:
Wrong. All that will happen is that after 5, 10, or fifteen years in No 10, The UK public will get fed up with labour, just like they are fed up with the tories now, and vote the tories in again.
Labour had a150 seat majority when they were last in power, They still got massively kicked out in the last GE.
You don't seriously believe that all those tory voters, who cannot or will not vote tory in this years GE, are going to vote labour in this years farce do you?
And so the process goes on.
All I can say is if labour `do' honour all the promises `they' have made in the run up to this years election, we will all be in the land of milk and honey.
The only problem is, that this is what all parties in the last 50 years have been promising us, and not one, NOT ONE of them has delivered on their promises. and made the situation for the UK public any better.
Those that actually think they will, are just grasping at non existent straws.
We should all stop voting?Labour had a150 seat majority when they were last in power, They still got massively kicked out in the last GE.
You don't seriously believe that all those tory voters, who cannot or will not vote tory in this years GE, are going to vote labour in this years farce do you?
And so the process goes on.
All I can say is if labour `do' honour all the promises `they' have made in the run up to this years election, we will all be in the land of milk and honey.
The only problem is, that this is what all parties in the last 50 years have been promising us, and not one, NOT ONE of them has delivered on their promises. and made the situation for the UK public any better.
Those that actually think they will, are just grasping at non existent straws.
borcy said:
Wombat3 said:
borcy said:
Those on the coal face may have become less productive. There may well be numbers of those in non front line roles that do wfh within the fire service, police, nurses in non patient roles and so on.
Although if you start with WFH = bad then it's a bit like putting the cart before the horse.
If we're looking for solutions, then starting at the conclusion and working back from there isn't a good idea.
Its much less likely that they have given the evidence of what is going on in the rest of the PS.Although if you start with WFH = bad then it's a bit like putting the cart before the horse.
If we're looking for solutions, then starting at the conclusion and working back from there isn't a good idea.
Obviously there may be non frontline people in the Fire service etc that do WFH.
You asked for what I think the issue is and that's it. Things like the numbers refusing to come into the office are a clear sign of what's going on. ISTR reading there were even PS workers refusing to put laptop cameras on for Teams meetings because it was an invasion of their privacy or some s
t FFS" (Fine, go to the bloody office then).Far too much "Do as I likeee" , far too many people stealing a living with little recourse or risk and next to no jeopardy.
More broadly it'd be interesting to see what the actual reason is.
I acknowledge that some people do have a bee in their bonnets about WFH as a matter of principle.
On the other hand if they are measuring the productivity of firefighters by the number of fires they put out then that is also clearly a bit non-sensical.
Its not a matter of demonising WFH, I used to do it a lot in a previous life 20 + years ago - but then I was attached to an office 100+miles from where I lived (after a restructure, so their choice, not mine!). When I worked at an office 15 miles from home I went there every day if I wasn't out seeing people.
Nonetheless I also know exactly how easy it is to have a half day off if you feel like it.
The decline in PS productivity pretty much matches the increase in people WFH (because pandemic).
TLDR: there's a lot of skiving going on
Wombat3 said:
Because those at the coal face are a) A scarce resource and b) subject to rosters & rotas that simply do not allow the levels of flexibility or the room to hide that WFH affords admin staff. Their work is, by its very nature a much more rigid environment.
On the other hand if they are measuring the productivity of firefighters by the number of fires they put out then that is also clearly a bit non-sensical.
Its not a matter of demonising WFH, I used to do it a lot in a previous life 20 + years ago - but then I was attached to an office 100+miles from where I lived (after a restructure, so their choice, not mine!). When I worked at an office 15 miles from home I went there every day if I wasn't out seeing people.
Nonetheless I also know exactly how easy it is to have a half day off if you feel like it.
The decline in PS productivity pretty much matches the increase in people WFH (because pandemic).
TLDR: there's a lot of skiving going on
I don't think it really follows because you're at the coal face you're default is efficient. On the other hand if they are measuring the productivity of firefighters by the number of fires they put out then that is also clearly a bit non-sensical.
Its not a matter of demonising WFH, I used to do it a lot in a previous life 20 + years ago - but then I was attached to an office 100+miles from where I lived (after a restructure, so their choice, not mine!). When I worked at an office 15 miles from home I went there every day if I wasn't out seeing people.
Nonetheless I also know exactly how easy it is to have a half day off if you feel like it.
The decline in PS productivity pretty much matches the increase in people WFH (because pandemic).
TLDR: there's a lot of skiving going on
Lack of productivity can often being very busy but achieving little.
That can be all sorts of things, lack of equipment, outdated processes etc that have come to a head in the last couple of years. It could be a lack of people that can often cause a dip in productivity.
I never said demonising but i know it's a pet peeve for some.
Personally i think it's a much more mixed bag that's pushed productivity down.
Edit, this might explain the numbers better.
Public service productivity within this statistic only focuses on the education received by end-users, or the healthcare services received by end-users, rather than the productivity of an individual teacher or an individual nurse to deliver a discrete task.
Similarly, the resource required to deliver some services within the NHS may have increased because of additional restrictions, such as the use of personal protective equipment, but the overall volume of NHS services may still have declined.
Edited by borcy on Friday 3rd May 18:33
borcy said:
I don't think it really follows because you're at the coal face you're default is efficient.
Lack of productivity can often being very busy but achieving little.
That can be all sorts of things, lack of equipment, outdated processes etc that have come to a head in the last couple of years. It could be a lack of people that can often cause a dip in productivity.
I never said demonising but i know it's a pet peeve for some.
Personally i think it's a much more mixed bag that's pushed productivity down.
Edit, this might explain the numbers better.
Public service productivity within this statistic only focuses on the education received by end-users, or the healthcare services received by end-users, rather than the productivity of an individual teacher or an individual nurse to deliver a discrete task.
Similarly, the resource required to deliver some services within the NHS may have increased because of additional restrictions, such as the use of personal protective equipment, but the overall volume of NHS services may still have declined.
I'd say that was probably over thinking it. When they all go back to the office and can be seen to be putting a shift in then we can look at other things if there isn't a marked improvement. Lack of productivity can often being very busy but achieving little.
That can be all sorts of things, lack of equipment, outdated processes etc that have come to a head in the last couple of years. It could be a lack of people that can often cause a dip in productivity.
I never said demonising but i know it's a pet peeve for some.
Personally i think it's a much more mixed bag that's pushed productivity down.
Edit, this might explain the numbers better.
Public service productivity within this statistic only focuses on the education received by end-users, or the healthcare services received by end-users, rather than the productivity of an individual teacher or an individual nurse to deliver a discrete task.
Similarly, the resource required to deliver some services within the NHS may have increased because of additional restrictions, such as the use of personal protective equipment, but the overall volume of NHS services may still have declined.
Edited by borcy on Friday 3rd May 18:33
Wombat3 said:
borcy said:
I don't think it really follows because you're at the coal face you're default is efficient.
Lack of productivity can often being very busy but achieving little.
That can be all sorts of things, lack of equipment, outdated processes etc that have come to a head in the last couple of years. It could be a lack of people that can often cause a dip in productivity.
I never said demonising but i know it's a pet peeve for some.
Personally i think it's a much more mixed bag that's pushed productivity down.
Edit, this might explain the numbers better.
Public service productivity within this statistic only focuses on the education received by end-users, or the healthcare services received by end-users, rather than the productivity of an individual teacher or an individual nurse to deliver a discrete task.
Similarly, the resource required to deliver some services within the NHS may have increased because of additional restrictions, such as the use of personal protective equipment, but the overall volume of NHS services may still have declined.
I'd say that was probably over thinking it. When they all go back to the office and can be seen to be putting a shift in then we can look at other things if there isn't a marked improvement. Lack of productivity can often being very busy but achieving little.
That can be all sorts of things, lack of equipment, outdated processes etc that have come to a head in the last couple of years. It could be a lack of people that can often cause a dip in productivity.
I never said demonising but i know it's a pet peeve for some.
Personally i think it's a much more mixed bag that's pushed productivity down.
Edit, this might explain the numbers better.
Public service productivity within this statistic only focuses on the education received by end-users, or the healthcare services received by end-users, rather than the productivity of an individual teacher or an individual nurse to deliver a discrete task.
Similarly, the resource required to deliver some services within the NHS may have increased because of additional restrictions, such as the use of personal protective equipment, but the overall volume of NHS services may still have declined.
Edited by borcy on Friday 3rd May 18:33
If they all go back.But even then other things will have changed.
borcy said:
Wombat3 said:
borcy said:
I don't think it really follows because you're at the coal face you're default is efficient.
Lack of productivity can often being very busy but achieving little.
That can be all sorts of things, lack of equipment, outdated processes etc that have come to a head in the last couple of years. It could be a lack of people that can often cause a dip in productivity.
I never said demonising but i know it's a pet peeve for some.
Personally i think it's a much more mixed bag that's pushed productivity down.
Edit, this might explain the numbers better.
Public service productivity within this statistic only focuses on the education received by end-users, or the healthcare services received by end-users, rather than the productivity of an individual teacher or an individual nurse to deliver a discrete task.
Similarly, the resource required to deliver some services within the NHS may have increased because of additional restrictions, such as the use of personal protective equipment, but the overall volume of NHS services may still have declined.
I'd say that was probably over thinking it. When they all go back to the office and can be seen to be putting a shift in then we can look at other things if there isn't a marked improvement. Lack of productivity can often being very busy but achieving little.
That can be all sorts of things, lack of equipment, outdated processes etc that have come to a head in the last couple of years. It could be a lack of people that can often cause a dip in productivity.
I never said demonising but i know it's a pet peeve for some.
Personally i think it's a much more mixed bag that's pushed productivity down.
Edit, this might explain the numbers better.
Public service productivity within this statistic only focuses on the education received by end-users, or the healthcare services received by end-users, rather than the productivity of an individual teacher or an individual nurse to deliver a discrete task.
Similarly, the resource required to deliver some services within the NHS may have increased because of additional restrictions, such as the use of personal protective equipment, but the overall volume of NHS services may still have declined.
Edited by borcy on Friday 3rd May 18:33
If they all go back.But even then other things will have changed.
borcy said:
Wombat3 said:
It's not (or should not be) as complex as they like to make out.
What isn't as complex? Simplification is always a component of any business success. The malaise in the PS is there because it can be IMO. A lack of management, overly powerful unions and a lack of accountability and jeopardy. Couple that with more red tape than you'll see at Chinese New Year in Beijung and we get what we've got., an underperforming , extremely expensive pile of mediocrity.
Edited by Wombat3 on Friday 3rd May 21:39
Pan Pan Pan said:
Wrong. All that will happen is that after 5, 10, or fifteen years in No 10, The UK public will get fed up with labour, just like they are fed up with the tories now, and vote the tories in again.
Labour had a150 seat majority when they were last in power, They still got massively kicked out in the last GE.
You don't seriously believe that all those tory voters, who cannot or will not vote tory in this years GE, are going to vote labour in this years farce do you?
And so the process goes on.
All I can say is if labour `do' honour all the promises `they' have made in the run up to this years election, we will all be in the land of milk and honey.
The only problem is, that this is what all parties in the last 50 years have been promising us, and not one, NOT ONE of them has delivered on their promises. and made the situation for the UK public any better.
Those that actually think they will, are just grasping at non existent straws.
Nah, in 15 years a lot of todays Tory faithful will be dead and they aren’t being replaced in the usual number. Labour had a150 seat majority when they were last in power, They still got massively kicked out in the last GE.
You don't seriously believe that all those tory voters, who cannot or will not vote tory in this years GE, are going to vote labour in this years farce do you?
And so the process goes on.
All I can say is if labour `do' honour all the promises `they' have made in the run up to this years election, we will all be in the land of milk and honey.
The only problem is, that this is what all parties in the last 50 years have been promising us, and not one, NOT ONE of them has delivered on their promises. and made the situation for the UK public any better.
Those that actually think they will, are just grasping at non existent straws.
Wombat3 said:
borcy said:
Wombat3 said:
It's not (or should not be) as complex as they like to make out.
What isn't as complex? Simplification is always a component of any business success. The malaise in the PS is there because it can be IMO. A lack of management, overly powerful unions and a lack of accountability and jeopardy. Couple that with more red tape than you'll see at Chinese New Year in Beijung and we get what we,very got., and underperforming , extremely expensive pike of mediocrity.
borcy said:
Wombat3 said:
borcy said:
I don't think it really follows because you're at the coal face you're default is efficient.
Lack of productivity can often being very busy but achieving little.
That can be all sorts of things, lack of equipment, outdated processes etc that have come to a head in the last couple of years. It could be a lack of people that can often cause a dip in productivity.
I never said demonising but i know it's a pet peeve for some.
Personally i think it's a much more mixed bag that's pushed productivity down.
Edit, this might explain the numbers better.
Public service productivity within this statistic only focuses on the education received by end-users, or the healthcare services received by end-users, rather than the productivity of an individual teacher or an individual nurse to deliver a discrete task.
Similarly, the resource required to deliver some services within the NHS may have increased because of additional restrictions, such as the use of personal protective equipment, but the overall volume of NHS services may still have declined.
I'd say that was probably over thinking it. When they all go back to the office and can be seen to be putting a shift in then we can look at other things if there isn't a marked improvement. Lack of productivity can often being very busy but achieving little.
That can be all sorts of things, lack of equipment, outdated processes etc that have come to a head in the last couple of years. It could be a lack of people that can often cause a dip in productivity.
I never said demonising but i know it's a pet peeve for some.
Personally i think it's a much more mixed bag that's pushed productivity down.
Edit, this might explain the numbers better.
Public service productivity within this statistic only focuses on the education received by end-users, or the healthcare services received by end-users, rather than the productivity of an individual teacher or an individual nurse to deliver a discrete task.
Similarly, the resource required to deliver some services within the NHS may have increased because of additional restrictions, such as the use of personal protective equipment, but the overall volume of NHS services may still have declined.
Edited by borcy on Friday 3rd May 18:33
If they all go back.But even then other things will have changed.
borcy said:
Randy Winkman said:
In London the civil service cant "all go back" because there isn't even desk space for half of them. Space has been given up in the last few years to save money. It was happening before covid.
Yes i know of other public sector bodies where that's the case as well. Data here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-s...
There appears to be plenty of slack in most places.
Edited by Wombat3 on Friday 3rd May 21:35
Wombat3 said:
borcy said:
Randy Winkman said:
In London the civil service cant "all go back" because there isn't even desk space for half of them. Space has been given up in the last few years to save money. It was happening before covid.
Yes i know of other public sector bodies where that's the case as well. Data here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-s...
There appears to be plenty of slack in most places.
Edited by Wombat3 on Friday 3rd May 21:35
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