Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party? (Vol. 2)

Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party? (Vol. 2)

Author
Discussion

President Merkin

3,171 posts

20 months

Wednesday 1st May
quotequote all
Earthdweller said:
Clown
Earthdweller said:
I’m getting sick of every time I post you immediately make a personal attack on me

laugh

I'll take irony for ten.

crankedup5

9,692 posts

36 months

Wednesday 1st May
quotequote all
119 said:
crankedup5 said:
Any chance we might see the return of steam hehe
Fred would have definitely been in support of that!
Yup, dear old Fred, I reckon that H&S used many of his video clips showing how to risk life and limb in every day work. Balls of steel that man, I don’t think he suffered anxiety issues.

Mr Penguin

1,320 posts

40 months

Wednesday 1st May
quotequote all
The Beeching cuts were necessary given the duplication, reducing passenger numbers, rail closures for the preceding 40 years, and how uneconomical some of the lines were (the worst could have been replaced by a minibus service and still have spare capacity). It isn't fair to judge him or the politicians at the time on the fact that a small number of the lines which were closed would turn out to be nice to have 50-60 years later.

What the Conservatives got wrong was making the report focused on the railways and not a full and explicit rebalancing of public transport.

What Labour got wrong was bad implementation of the proposals, e.g. making the bus services that replaced the trains go from the former railway stations and not utilise the extra flexibility that buses have to make them more convenient.

Another round of cuts won't work because there isn't much fat to cut with most of the smaller stations being unmanned and passenger numbers rising. Any efficiency savings need to be found elsewhere.

NomduJour

19,165 posts

260 months

Wednesday 1st May
quotequote all
I think what the railways need are two new giant quangos, cuts to services, and a return to national strikes.

Hants PHer

5,768 posts

112 months

Wednesday 1st May
quotequote all
crankedup5 said:
119 said:
And apparently he is also going to break up the gangs organising the boat crossings.

I guess he must have someone on the inside maybe?
No No No, he is not going to break up the gangs, SKS is going to ‘smash the gangs’ laugh
I know, it's great news is it not? Actually, while Sir Keir's government is busy 'smashing' the people smuggling gangs, they might as well - while they're in there - smash criminal gangs involving drug smugglers, paedophiles, fake goods, internet fraud and ivory smuggling. Yay!

To be serious, we can't even deal with theft of cars and theft from shops in our own communities. And let's not mention knife crime..... The idea that we can mobilise a crack crime busting squad that will roam Europe 'smashing' the bad guys is ludicrous. Oh yes, and in addition we'll get an agreement with the French to return failed asylum seekers. Like hell we will. Still, if people fall for it and vote Labour then job done, I suppose: that's politics.

DeejRC

5,842 posts

83 months

Wednesday 1st May
quotequote all
Or…maybe somebody has a bit of a think about what is actually needed? And how to deliver it.
How about that? From that, the govt could come up with a strategy, hand in hand with industry. It’s a radical idea I know.
Or next time, don’t split the frigging rolling stock from the rest of the business and load the deal so they have all the profit! How anybody thought that would work I have no idea!
I like rail travel. It is a vastly more relaxed way to travel. I didn’t really own a car when I lived/worked around Europe, it was foot and train all the time. Even when I did run the Donkey in Zurich it was only for a limited time in summer. I am always baffled why we get it so wrong in the UK.

NomduJour

19,165 posts

260 months

Wednesday 1st May
quotequote all
DeejRC said:
Or next time, don’t split the frigging rolling stock from the rest of the business and load the deal so they have all the profit! How anybody thought that would work I have no idea!
EU competition law.

2xChevrons

3,254 posts

81 months

Wednesday 1st May
quotequote all
Mr Penguin said:
The Beeching cuts were necessary given the duplication, reducing passenger numbers, rail closures for the preceding 40 years, and how uneconomical some of the lines were (the worst could have been replaced by a minibus service and still have spare capacity). It isn't fair to judge him or the politicians at the time on the fact that a small number of the lines which were closed would turn out to be nice to have 50-60 years later.
Agreed.

Change and reform - of a radical and sweeping nature - were inevitable on the railways in the 50s/60s. Both to account for the fact they were (for the first time) a unified and nationalised system and to adapt for the fact that they were no longer the primary - let alone sole - form of effective long-distance/high-speed transport.

BR found itself in a terribly difficult position purely from a management point of view because it had to fight both internal and external battles. Even if the industry had been in rude health, nationalisation would have thrown up all sorts of challenges (take what happened within the LMS and LNER on Grouping and then amplify them ten-fold) and the rise of car ownership and road and air transport presented an existential challenge to the railways even if they had remained in private hands. It would have required superhuman levels of political and managerial leadership and vision to successfully navigate the situation that BR found itself in.

Beeching (the name used as a metonym for all the changes wrought on BR through the 1960s) was a belated realisation of that fact after the blind complacency of the Modernisation Plan.

Even in the most optimistic and service-orientated alternative course, closures would have happened, and many of them. The British railway network was over-built and full of redundant routes, even in the days of >120 competing private companies. The Big Four began some rationalisation and also began closure of unremunerative routes as heavy industry declined and the Austin Seven and rural bus and lorry services began nibbling away at market share. There were literally thousands of route miles that BR had no reason - practical or financial - reason to keep open simply because they duplicated other services and/or were scarcely used.

It used to be that Beeching was cast as the villain - the heartless bureaucrat sweeping away vital infrastructure in search of a bottom line - and more recently it's become popular to shift the blame to Marples. Marples was undoubtedly dodgy (or downright criminal) in his dealings, but even that doesn't properly set the context (and the extent to which Marples and his [wife's] company benefited from Beeching has been hugely overstated). But, as I mentioned above, the Wilson government didn't stop the closured and received just as much pro-road/car lobbying from within their party as the Macmillan government did from within theirs. And it was barely lobbying. It cannot be overstated how much of a consensus there was in the 1955-1965 period that road transport and private car ownership was the future and a highly desirable one. Railways in general had had their day and the British railways (and British Railways) were a tired Victorian relic that had no real place either the Progressive Consumerist Society of Macmillan or the White Heat of Technology of Wilson.

The Beeching programme caused very little outrage at the time, and most closures passed almost without notice, let along pushback. The irony was that just as the Wilson government was running to the end of the closure programme in the late 1960s was when we collectively realised that actually a world based around, and built for, the car wasn't as joyous and liberating and perfect as we'd thought. By which time it was too late - not only had the infrastructure been torn up, never to be replaced but we'd changed our lives, lifestyle and society so much that even a pre-Beeching rail system would not longer serve us.

Mr Penguin said:
What the Conservatives got wrong was making the report focused on the railways and not a full and explicit rebalancing of public transport.
In retrospect that was - imo - the fundamental flaw in how BR was set up and organised right from the start. The Attlee government nationalised all the pillars of the transport industry - rail, waterways, docks, airports, road transport - but did so simply by buying up each industry and then pretty much leaving it 'as was'. Not only unchanged in itself but (in modern management parlance) 'siloed'. There should have been two Executives under the British Transport Commission - a Passenger Transport Executive and a Freight Transport Executive. Each with overarching responsibility to organise how their respective charges moved around the country. Have Railway, Waterway, Road Transport and Air Transport Boards below those, whose role is to cater to the stated demands of the Executives. Effectively the Executives become the 'customer' and the boards become the 'supplier'. Therefore the demand becomes "get passengers from A to B" or "get goods from X to Z" and it's easier to build a more integrated and efficient system - for instance, replacing unremunerative railway branch lines with bus and van/lorry services, but retaining intercity rail lines. Or using waterways to deliver bulk goods to inland ports, then distributed by road services etc. etc.

Unfortunately such as system would also rely on a level of long-term consistency that has been entirely denied to British transport policy (and much else) since 1945. Because even in my system the BTC, the Executives and the Boards would have to know their terms of reference (is the priority maximising service, minimising cost, efficient use of assets etc. etc. etc.?) and those ToRs can't change with every change of government, which is what blighted British Rail.

NomduJour said:
EU competition law.
False, I'm afraid.

The EU rules only mandate the separation of services and infrastructure, and then really only on an accountancy level. That's so that there can be open-access competition, with OA operators paying the infrastructure owner for the right to run trains.

It's perfectly possible for the same entity to ultimately own the tracks and the trains and the run services, so long as trains and track are kept separate and there is a charge-cost involved for running trains. This is effectively how British Rail operated in the 1980s under Sectorisation - it was all still nationalised but the rolling stock was allocated to different business sectors and costs were allocated by sector for both the upkeep of the stock and the running of the services on the centralised infrastructure. Each sector had to publish and justify its own profits/losses.

The separation of rolling stock came about because the UK chose to go for the franchise model of operation, with franchise terms much shorter than the typical life of railway rolling stock. You can't expect an operating company to pay for rolling stock with a lifespan of 30 years when they can't guarantee they'll be operating it in five years. So the ROSCOs procure and own the stock and lease it to each franchise.

Do away with the franchise model and there's no need to separate the rolling stock.

For instance, SNCF has two main divisions - SNCF-Reseau (which owns and manages the infrastructure) and SNCF-Voyageurs (which operates the trains). There's also Geodis which runs freight logistics and Keolis which runs public transport systems (including several in Britain...). SNCF-V is entirely responsible for its own rolling stock. Both SNCF-R and SNCF-V are ultimately under the same umbrella (state-owned SNCF) but are keep separate accounts and operations which fully complies with the EU requirements.

The railways are a classic example of the UK blaming the EU for sub-par policy.


Edited by 2xChevrons on Wednesday 1st May 11:46

AstonZagato

12,728 posts

211 months

Wednesday 1st May
quotequote all
2xChevrons said:
snip..

Edit: On the actual story about Labour removing services to reduce cancellations; as a short-term solution it makes sense. There is long-standinf shortage of drivers and operators have become too used to existing drivers working overtime and voluntary work on rest days to run their timetables. Now the drivers aren't so willing to do that, services are being cancelled, often on the fly.

Cutting services to fit the reality of the crews available should alleviate that immediate symptom - 10 services that are guaranteed to show up when they're timetabled are better for passengers than 50 services of which any 40 might not actually run.

The real snag - and challenge for an incoming Labour government- is sorting the underlying issue. Adding more traincrew costs money upfront, but fits in well with Starmer's stated goal of provided more 'good, high quality, secure jobs'. They'll have to sell the unions on the benefits of more members and higher rail usage over the power they can wield and the wages/overtime they can command when there's a shortage.
I commuted by train for 25 years. A timetable was essential to know what I should expect. It also allowed me to claim back the ticket cost when things went wrong.

NomduJour

19,165 posts

260 months

Wednesday 1st May
quotequote all
2xChevrons said:
The railways are a classic example of the UK blaming the EU for sub-par policy


Edited by 2xChevrons on Wednesday 1st May 11:46
#fbpe

Mr Penguin

1,320 posts

40 months

Wednesday 1st May
quotequote all
2xChevrons said:
In retrospect that was - imo - the fundamental flaw in how BR was set up and organised right from the start. The Attlee government nationalised all the pillars of the transport industry - rail, waterways, docks, airports, road transport - but did so simply by buying up each industry and then pretty much leaving it 'as was'. Not only unchanged in itself but (in modern management parlance) 'siloed'. There should have been two Executives under the British Transport Commission - a Passenger Transport Executive and a Freight Transport Executive. Each with overarching responsibility to organise how their respective charges moved around the country. Have Railway, Waterway, Road Transport and Air Transport Boards below those, whose role is to cater to the stated demands of the Executives. Effectively the Executives become the 'customer' and the boards become the 'supplier'. Therefore the demand becomes "get passengers from A to B" or "get goods from X to Z" and it's easier to build a more integrated and efficient system - for instance, replacing unremunerative railway branch lines with bus and van/lorry services, but retaining intercity rail lines. Or using waterways to deliver bulk goods to inland ports, then distributed by road services etc. etc.
Reminds me of this scene in Yes Minister when Jim Hacker takes on the position of Transport Supremo/Muggins.


JagLover

42,511 posts

236 months

Wednesday 1st May
quotequote all
2xChevrons said:
Agreed.

Change and reform - of a radical and sweeping nature - were inevitable on the railways in the 50s/60s. Both to account for the fact they were (for the first time) a unified and nationalised system and to adapt for the fact that they were no longer the primary - let alone sole - form of effective long-distance/high-speed transport.

BR found itself in a terribly difficult position purely from a management point of view because it had to fight both internal and external battles. Even if the industry had been in rude health, nationalisation would have thrown up all sorts of challenges (take what happened within the LMS and LNER on Grouping and then amplify them ten-fold) and the rise of car ownership and road and air transport presented an existential challenge to the railways even if they had remained in private hands. It would have required superhuman levels of political and managerial leadership and vision to successfully navigate the situation that BR found itself in.

Beeching (the name used as a metonym for all the changes wrought on BR through the 1960s) was a belated realisation of that fact after the blind complacency of the Modernisation Plan.

Even in the most optimistic and service-orientated alternative course, closures would have happened, and many of them. The British railway network was over-built and full of redundant routes, even in the days of >120 competing private companies. The Big Four began some rationalisation and also began closure of unremunerative routes as heavy industry declined and the Austin Seven and rural bus and lorry services began nibbling away at market share. There were literally thousands of route miles that BR had no reason - practical or financial - reason to keep open simply because they duplicated other services and/or were scarcely used.

It used to be that Beeching was cast as the villain - the heartless bureaucrat sweeping away vital infrastructure in search of a bottom line - and more recently it's become popular to shift the blame to Marples. Marples was undoubtedly dodgy (or downright criminal) in his dealings, but even that doesn't properly set the context (and the extent to which Marples and his [wife's] company benefited from Beeching has been hugely overstated). But, as I mentioned above, the Wilson government didn't stop the closured and received just as much pro-road/car lobbying from within their party as the Macmillan government did from within theirs. And it was barely lobbying. It cannot be overstated how much of a consensus there was in the 1955-1965 period that road transport and private car ownership was the future and a highly desirable one. Railways in general had had their day and the British railways (and British Railways) were a tired Victorian relic that had no real place either the Progressive Consumerist Society of Macmillan or the White Heat of Technology of Wilson.

The Beeching programme caused very little outrage at the time, and most closures passed almost without notice, let along pushback. The irony was that just as the Wilson government was running to the end of the closure programme in the late 1960s was when we collectively realised that actually a world based around, and built for, the car wasn't as joyous and liberating and perfect as we'd thought. By which time it was too late - not only had the infrastructure been torn up, never to be replaced but we'd changed our lives, lifestyle and society so much that even a pre-Beeching rail system would not longer serve us.
Interesting post and yes agreed on the Beeching programme.

The fact it removed up to 30% of track, 55% of stations, but lost only 10% of passenger miles illustrates very well what was being cut (some of the proposed cuts were cancelled hence use of up to)

crankedup5

9,692 posts

36 months

Wednesday 1st May
quotequote all
Hants PHer said:
crankedup5 said:
119 said:
And apparently he is also going to break up the gangs organising the boat crossings.

I guess he must have someone on the inside maybe?
No No No, he is not going to break up the gangs, SKS is going to ‘smash the gangs’ laugh
I know, it's great news is it not? Actually, while Sir Keir's government is busy 'smashing' the people smuggling gangs, they might as well - while they're in there - smash criminal gangs involving drug smugglers, paedophiles, fake goods, internet fraud and ivory smuggling. Yay!

To be serious, we can't even deal with theft of cars and theft from shops in our own communities. And let's not mention knife crime..... The idea that we can mobilise a crack crime busting squad that will roam Europe 'smashing' the bad guys is ludicrous. Oh yes, and in addition we'll get an agreement with the French to return failed asylum seekers. Like hell we will. Still, if people fall for it and vote Labour then job done, I suppose: that's politics.
It’s an insult to the electorate is what it is.


biggbn

23,614 posts

221 months

Wednesday 1st May
quotequote all
crankedup5 said:
119 said:
crankedup5 said:
Any chance we might see the return of steam hehe
Fred would have definitely been in support of that!
Yup, dear old Fred, I reckon that H&S used many of his video clips showing how to risk life and limb in every day work. Balls of steel that man, I don’t think he suffered anxiety issues.
His wives on the other hand.....

BigMon

4,244 posts

130 months

Wednesday 1st May
quotequote all
crankedup5 said:
It’s an insult to the electorate is what it is.
I keep saying it but Labour HQ will not lose a jot of sleep if you and the others in here who would never vote Labour in a gazillion years keep bashing them.

They have to convince the silent majority of middle England, not N,P&E right wingers.

Whether they will or not remains to be seen but I remain steadfast in my belief it's unlikely but not impossible that an incoming Labour government will be more useless than the current abysmal incumbents.

Regardless, I will be voting for neither.

hidetheelephants

24,685 posts

194 months

Wednesday 1st May
quotequote all
BigMon said:
They have to convince the silent majority of middle England, not N,P&E right wingers.
You've spelt whinger wrong. smile

Catweazle

1,174 posts

143 months

Wednesday 1st May
quotequote all
For those who are interested, you can download an article from The Observer written by Dr Beeching in Feb 1965 via this link.

https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?d...

anonymoususer

5,898 posts

49 months

Thursday 2nd May
quotequote all
If Keir Starmer doesn't take a full 100% of the council seats from the former red wall he will have lost these elections.
It will show that the conservatives are still a major force to be reckoned with
It's all or nothing today.
If he doesnt get the full lot I can see questions being asked about his leadership and possibly a change of leader

hidetheelephants

24,685 posts

194 months

Thursday 2nd May
quotequote all
anonymoususer said:
If Keir Starmer doesn't take a full 100% of the council seats from the former red wall he will have lost these elections.
It will show that the conservatives are still a major force to be reckoned with
It's all or nothing today.
If he doesnt get the full lot I can see questions being asked about his leadership and possibly a change of leader
I think you're setting too low an expectation; Labour should be taking 150% of council seats and at least 20 regional mayoralties in order to avert SKS's ignominious return to the back benches. We should demand no less.

768

13,751 posts

97 months

Thursday 2nd May
quotequote all
Local election results are morally general election results.