Half a world, and half a lifetime away.
Discussion
98elise said:
It maybe the same newspaper but it's the first article that makes any sense. The previous ones sounded like they didn't have a clue how this stuff works.
Being able to feed a false target back when the missile is active, is at least plausible. Jamming (basically flooding the missiles radar) is normal countermeasures, but the manufacturer would know how the missile would respond to jamming, giving an edge to anyone that knows the details.
That said you you don't get much time to deal with an Exocet attack. It's what makes sea skimmers successful, hence the need for Close in Weapons Systems.
Maybe they didn't have a clue how this stuff works. Your first comment was to dismiss it out of hand with "sounds like bBeing able to feed a false target back when the missile is active, is at least plausible. Jamming (basically flooding the missiles radar) is normal countermeasures, but the manufacturer would know how the missile would respond to jamming, giving an edge to anyone that knows the details.
That said you you don't get much time to deal with an Exocet attack. It's what makes sea skimmers successful, hence the need for Close in Weapons Systems.
ks".Very insightful. Then again.
FiF said:
98elise said:
It maybe the same newspaper but it's the first article that makes any sense. The previous ones sounded like they didn't have a clue how this stuff works.
Being able to feed a false target back when the missile is active, is at least plausible. Jamming (basically flooding the missiles radar) is normal countermeasures, but the manufacturer would know how the missile would respond to jamming, giving an edge to anyone that knows the details.
That said you you don't get much time to deal with an Exocet attack. It's what makes sea skimmers successful, hence the need for Close in Weapons Systems.
Maybe they didn't have a clue how this stuff works. Your first comment was to dismiss it out of hand with "sounds like bBeing able to feed a false target back when the missile is active, is at least plausible. Jamming (basically flooding the missiles radar) is normal countermeasures, but the manufacturer would know how the missile would respond to jamming, giving an edge to anyone that knows the details.
That said you you don't get much time to deal with an Exocet attack. It's what makes sea skimmers successful, hence the need for Close in Weapons Systems.
ks".Very insightful. Then again.
ks.ECM is part of your normal defence. ECM is obviously more effective if you know what the missile will do when it encounters specific ECM. That's plausible.
Edited to add...
This is what was in the original article
original article said:
The Telegraph has been told that French-made Exocet guided missiles contained a "kill switch" that could have disarmed them
British experts believed the Exocets contained a kill switch, which arms manufacturers sometimes secretly build into weapons so they can be disabled if they fall into the hands of a hostile state.
British experts believed the Exocets contained a kill switch, which arms manufacturers sometimes secretly build into weapons so they can be disabled if they fall into the hands of a hostile state.
Edited by 98elise on Friday 6th May 16:06
98elise said:
I was dismissing the idea of a remote kill switch that the French could use to disable a missile fired at one of our warships. That still sounds like bks.
ECM is part of your normal defence. ECM is obviously more effective if you know what the missile will do when it encounters specific ECM. That's plausible.
I have some insight because it was my job in the 80's
And you made a specific interpretation of the phrase 'kill switch' despite the articles not making nor suggesting that specific interpretation.ks.ECM is part of your normal defence. ECM is obviously more effective if you know what the missile will do when it encounters specific ECM. That's plausible.
I have some insight because it was my job in the 80's
And now, despite previous and even recent denials from the French according to the First Sea Lord, maybe not so clear cut after all, hence the dancing on the head of a pin.
Frankly if your insight is so great might it not have been more useful to say, well it's possible with electronic countermeasures to cause incoming missiles to miss the target or deactivate or whatever but that clearly we didn't / don't know if that was possible at the time.
Personally still think it might not have made much difference considering the time to impact when first identified accurately. Bearing in mind this was 40 years ago. But I'm not the one claiming a position of superior knowledge. Said a number of times I don't know the details and was simply asking for intelligent and background input, sadly didn't get that.
Anyway this bickering is distracting from an otherwise decent thread, so I'll just wait for more developments if any.
FiF said:
98elise said:
I was dismissing the idea of a remote kill switch that the French could use to disable a missile fired at one of our warships. That still sounds like bks.
ECM is part of your normal defence. ECM is obviously more effective if you know what the missile will do when it encounters specific ECM. That's plausible.
I have some insight because it was my job in the 80's
And you made a specific interpretation of the phrase 'kill switch' despite the articles not making nor suggesting that specific interpretation.ks.ECM is part of your normal defence. ECM is obviously more effective if you know what the missile will do when it encounters specific ECM. That's plausible.
I have some insight because it was my job in the 80's
And now, despite previous and even recent denials from the French according to the First Sea Lord, maybe not so clear cut after all, hence the dancing on the head of a pin.
Frankly if your insight is so great might it not have been more useful to say, well it's possible with electronic countermeasures to cause incoming missiles to miss the target or deactivate or whatever but that clearly we didn't / don't know if that was possible at the time.
Personally still think it might not have made much difference considering the time to impact when first identified accurately. Bearing in mind this was 40 years ago. But I'm not the one claiming a position of superior knowledge. Said a number of times I don't know the details and was simply asking for intelligent and background input, sadly didn't get that.
Anyway this bickering is distracting from an otherwise decent thread, so I'll just wait for more developments if any.
original article said:
The Telegraph has been told that French-made Exocet guided missiles contained a "kill switch" that could have disarmed them
British experts believed the Exocets contained a kill switch, which arms manufacturers sometimes secretly build into weapons so they can be disabled if they fall into the hands of a hostile state.
I still maintain that some sort of remote disabling kill switch is highly likely to be bBritish experts believed the Exocets contained a kill switch, which arms manufacturers sometimes secretly build into weapons so they can be disabled if they fall into the hands of a hostile state.
ks.ECM is not a kill switch. It's a means to (hopefully) confuse or distract an inbound missile.
Anyway I'll stop posting on the subject now.
Edited by 98elise on Saturday 7th May 08:48
Tyre Tread said:
Just read the recently published "Harrier 809"
Some fascinating info in there.
https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/111/1117480/harrie...
Have also just read this - really good stuffSome fascinating info in there.
https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/111/1117480/harrie...
Also a couple of recent YouTube pieces by the Imperial War Museum about the aerial battle and the following land fight…
https://youtu.be/5Lw8eWE7aQ8
https://youtu.be/BX-UqeFSW3U
And just found the one about the conflict at sea too…
https://youtu.be/o1nENiXSrJY
42 years ago the Royal Navy lost it's first warship in combat since WW2.
Later tonight I will be raising a tot to those who are still on patrol.
Roll of Honour - HMS Sheffield.
Petty Officer David R. Briggs, D.S.M.
Catering Assistant Darryl M. Cope
Lieutenant Commander David I. Balfour
Weapons Engineering Artificer Andrew C. Eggington
Sub-Lieutenant Richard C. Emly
Petty Officer Cook Robert Fagan
Cook Neil A. Goodall
Leading Marine Engineering Mechanic Allan J. Knowles
Laundryman Lai Chi Keung
Leading Cook Tony Marshall
Petty Officer Anthony R. Norman
Cook David E. Osborne
Weapons Engineering Artificer Kevin R. F. Sullivan
Cook Andrew C. Swallow
Acting Chief Weapons Mechanic Michael E. G. Till
Weapons Engineering Mechanic Barry J. Wallis
Leading Cook Adrian K. Wellstead
Master-at-Arms Brian Welsh
WEO Lieutenant Commander John S. Woodhead, D.S.C. Read his citation in the London Gazette.
Cook Kevin J. Williams
SD.
Later tonight I will be raising a tot to those who are still on patrol.
Roll of Honour - HMS Sheffield.
Petty Officer David R. Briggs, D.S.M.
Catering Assistant Darryl M. Cope
Lieutenant Commander David I. Balfour
Weapons Engineering Artificer Andrew C. Eggington
Sub-Lieutenant Richard C. Emly
Petty Officer Cook Robert Fagan
Cook Neil A. Goodall
Leading Marine Engineering Mechanic Allan J. Knowles
Laundryman Lai Chi Keung
Leading Cook Tony Marshall
Petty Officer Anthony R. Norman
Cook David E. Osborne
Weapons Engineering Artificer Kevin R. F. Sullivan
Cook Andrew C. Swallow
Acting Chief Weapons Mechanic Michael E. G. Till
Weapons Engineering Mechanic Barry J. Wallis
Leading Cook Adrian K. Wellstead
Master-at-Arms Brian Welsh
WEO Lieutenant Commander John S. Woodhead, D.S.C. Read his citation in the London Gazette.
Cook Kevin J. Williams
SD.
A few years ago when I took over as Mess Pres in Nelson, we were preparing for the annual Falklands Dinner and looking for a suitable guest speaker. As you would expect people get booked up quite quickly for events like these and we were struggling to find someone.
I was aimlessly chatting with the Hall Porter who just happened to mention he liked to be duty on the night of the dinner as he was on the Glasgow … he told me snippets of his account when they faced … so I on behalf of the mess invited him to the dinner as my guest. I think it was the VP who asked him to write down his story so I could recount some of it in the speeches… to which he replied and offered to deliver the speech himself.
Instantly promoted to the dinner VIP, he gave the most moving, patriotic account that to this day the memory makes me tearful.
He is an impressive, yet unassuming man and an evening I will never forget.
I was aimlessly chatting with the Hall Porter who just happened to mention he liked to be duty on the night of the dinner as he was on the Glasgow … he told me snippets of his account when they faced … so I on behalf of the mess invited him to the dinner as my guest. I think it was the VP who asked him to write down his story so I could recount some of it in the speeches… to which he replied and offered to deliver the speech himself.
Instantly promoted to the dinner VIP, he gave the most moving, patriotic account that to this day the memory makes me tearful.
He is an impressive, yet unassuming man and an evening I will never forget.
shed driver said:
42 years ago the Royal Navy lost it's first warship in combat since WW2.
Later tonight I will be raising a tot to those who are still on patrol.
Roll of Honour - HMS Sheffield.
Petty Officer David R. Briggs, D.S.M.
Catering Assistant Darryl M. Cope
Lieutenant Commander David I. Balfour
Weapons Engineering Artificer Andrew C. Eggington
Sub-Lieutenant Richard C. Emly
Petty Officer Cook Robert Fagan
Cook Neil A. Goodall
Leading Marine Engineering Mechanic Allan J. Knowles
Laundryman Lai Chi Keung
Leading Cook Tony Marshall
Petty Officer Anthony R. Norman
Cook David E. Osborne
Weapons Engineering Artificer Kevin R. F. Sullivan
Cook Andrew C. Swallow
Acting Chief Weapons Mechanic Michael E. G. Till
Weapons Engineering Mechanic Barry J. Wallis
Leading Cook Adrian K. Wellstead
Master-at-Arms Brian Welsh
WEO Lieutenant Commander John S. Woodhead, D.S.C. Read his citation in the London Gazette.
Cook Kevin J. Williams
SD.
Thanks for the reminder. My uncle was on the Sheffield until Feb 82 when he started 12 months of shore duties as a family man. As one of the ship’s weapons engineers, he lost a few good friends that day.Later tonight I will be raising a tot to those who are still on patrol.
Roll of Honour - HMS Sheffield.
Petty Officer David R. Briggs, D.S.M.
Catering Assistant Darryl M. Cope
Lieutenant Commander David I. Balfour
Weapons Engineering Artificer Andrew C. Eggington
Sub-Lieutenant Richard C. Emly
Petty Officer Cook Robert Fagan
Cook Neil A. Goodall
Leading Marine Engineering Mechanic Allan J. Knowles
Laundryman Lai Chi Keung
Leading Cook Tony Marshall
Petty Officer Anthony R. Norman
Cook David E. Osborne
Weapons Engineering Artificer Kevin R. F. Sullivan
Cook Andrew C. Swallow
Acting Chief Weapons Mechanic Michael E. G. Till
Weapons Engineering Mechanic Barry J. Wallis
Leading Cook Adrian K. Wellstead
Master-at-Arms Brian Welsh
WEO Lieutenant Commander John S. Woodhead, D.S.C. Read his citation in the London Gazette.
Cook Kevin J. Williams
SD.
Last June I headed south with some other 3 Para veterans. I joined up after my brother-in-law was killed in Longdon. Winning the last VC if the 20th Century.
Bleak place. The wind never stopped in the six days I was there.
We were fortunate to be able to do a battle field tour on Longdon on the 12th June.
I visited my brother-in-law’s memorial, splashed some Falkland’s Islands whiskey on it and said a few words.
It bought me back to 1982 and my mother collecting me from school during mock exams. I’d normally walk home.
She told me when I got in the car.
The walk back to the car park at Wireless Ridge, I did alone.
I’ve been but cannot envision going back.
I’ve never been to anywhere I haven’t wanted to go back to.
Except there.
Utrinque Paratus.
Bleak place. The wind never stopped in the six days I was there.
We were fortunate to be able to do a battle field tour on Longdon on the 12th June.
I visited my brother-in-law’s memorial, splashed some Falkland’s Islands whiskey on it and said a few words.
It bought me back to 1982 and my mother collecting me from school during mock exams. I’d normally walk home.
She told me when I got in the car.
The walk back to the car park at Wireless Ridge, I did alone.
I’ve been but cannot envision going back.
I’ve never been to anywhere I haven’t wanted to go back to.
Except there.
Utrinque Paratus.
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