The decline of manual values
Discussion
NDA said:
Om said:
More powerful/faster cars will benefit from the fast shifting modern auto boxes and will allow you more time to concentrate on steering and braking - and are generally more efficient - in speed of change, on fuel/emissions and effort.
On a lower powered car - especially an older one - an autobox will sap a significant % of the available power and have lower performance, poorer efficiency - and increased complexity.
That's been my experience over the years too.... With smaller cars you need to wring the performance out and that suits a manual - more powerful engines don't really need a manual. I test drove a big V8 with a manual before spec'ing a paddle shift when I came to order - the manual was all but useless, 1st was unusable (for example).On a lower powered car - especially an older one - an autobox will sap a significant % of the available power and have lower performance, poorer efficiency - and increased complexity.
There are some cars, particularly vintage ones where the auto boxes were horrible, where a manual box is more highly prized. I'd rather have paddles on a modern sports car.
Shnozz said:
Pit Pony said:
Wacky Racer said:
Why have a dog and bark yourself?
Auto's all the way.
(I never thought I would ever say that)
Apart from my politics that haven't changed, my 20 year old self would be upset at the person I have become. Auto's all the way.
(I never thought I would ever say that)
Those with sport of supercars - do you use the paddles all the time or rarely?
I recently drove a Ferrari 458 GT car (fully stripped out, caged and on slicks) on track with flappy paddles and still managed to spin it, I would have been buggered (and hugely slower) if I had to drive that fast and change gear manually with a tricky clutch. I was overwhelmed by the speed of the thing even with it being a (very good) semi auto gear box.
I guess it all depends on what your idea of a "fun" car is - mine is one that scares the bejesus out of me. A semi auto in place of a manual in those types of cars just makes it slightly less daunting to try to approach the handling limits in.
cerb4.5lee said:
NDA said:
Om said:
More powerful/faster cars will benefit from the fast shifting modern auto boxes and will allow you more time to concentrate on steering and braking - and are generally more efficient - in speed of change, on fuel/emissions and effort.
On a lower powered car - especially an older one - an autobox will sap a significant % of the available power and have lower performance, poorer efficiency - and increased complexity.
That's been my experience over the years too.... With smaller cars you need to wring the performance out and that suits a manual - more powerful engines don't really need a manual. I test drove a big V8 with a manual before spec'ing a paddle shift when I came to order - the manual was all but useless, 1st was unusable (for example).On a lower powered car - especially an older one - an autobox will sap a significant % of the available power and have lower performance, poorer efficiency - and increased complexity.
There are some cars, particularly vintage ones where the auto boxes were horrible, where a manual box is more highly prized. I'd rather have paddles on a modern sports car.
It would happily pull away from a standstill and do up to 80 mph in second gear.
The manual box was therefore pretty irrelevant unless driving hard and then it was a distraction with so much else going on.
heebeegeetee said:
Gary C said:
Bought the wife an auto (as the car she wanted doesn't come in any other form), it has the 8 speed aisin box and its the first time I have really driven any sort of distance with an auto
It explains a lot of modern driving. Its fine in its way, shifts smoothly most of the time.
But I can do better with a manual, it doesn't change down promptly enough when braking such that there is a delay as it gets into the right gear when accelerating again, it always seeks the lowest gear when cruising but then always thrashes the nuts when using full throttle. Manual mode is the most frustrating, even if I just want to use full throttle at say mid rev's, it overrides me and changes down 2-3 gears.
The worst though, is when I get back in my manual and forget to press the clutch when coming to a stop
Thing is, a manual always does what I want when I want it how I want it. The auto needs me to change my driving style and I don't want too.
It doesn't even make much sense in city traffic where an EV would be a better choice.
I've never driven an auto box like this at all, so please do accept that it would be unwise to form a view based on this geatbox (and doesn't explain anything about modern driving imo). It explains a lot of modern driving. Its fine in its way, shifts smoothly most of the time.
But I can do better with a manual, it doesn't change down promptly enough when braking such that there is a delay as it gets into the right gear when accelerating again, it always seeks the lowest gear when cruising but then always thrashes the nuts when using full throttle. Manual mode is the most frustrating, even if I just want to use full throttle at say mid rev's, it overrides me and changes down 2-3 gears.
The worst though, is when I get back in my manual and forget to press the clutch when coming to a stop
Thing is, a manual always does what I want when I want it how I want it. The auto needs me to change my driving style and I don't want too.
It doesn't even make much sense in city traffic where an EV would be a better choice.
What gearbox did you say it was?
Don't get me wrong, it works 'fine', but its not as sharp as a manual can be. The need to hunt to the lowest gear spoils things when its in 4th but wants to go to 2nd before accelerating when in a manual I would have already been in 2nd, but the real pain is its refusal to be totally manual when manual is selected.
And it explains the brief hesitation I have noted more and more with other drivers.
Edited by Gary C on Thursday 16th May 18:28
Edited by Gary C on Thursday 16th May 18:35
Forester1965 said:
I had an Aisin box in a couple of Volvos and the ZF in a couple of BMWs. The implementation in the BMWs was loads better than the Volvos. Imagine a lot of it is in the software.
ProbablyIf it didn't change down so much when braking and didn't decide to override the driver in Manual it would probably be fine, but while the changes are reasonably quick, changing down 2 or 3 gears takes more time than I am used to.
Ive started to flick it down with the paddles when braking into a turn but even then it can jump back and spoil the party.
The Ferrari 430 box I drove on the track was much better, so 'mechanical', but really, I like the G50 in my 911.
This is a how a real man does it lol... 18-speed gearbox with no synchromesh, double declutching all the way - and driving a road train with three trailers while holding the camera
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vcn2s7oRM3k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vcn2s7oRM3k
Oh good, an argument about whether manual gearboxes are better than automatic transmissions. I neither know nor care in the objective sense, if this is something one can be objective about, but I prefer driving a manual. Manuals are, generally, easier to control at slow speeds and offer one the security of knowing how the car will respond at all times. Oddly enough I find them easier in traffic, too: a light clutch pedal is easier on the ankles than a heavy service brake. Automatics will, of course, have advantages for others.
The real problem, however - at least in the context of the automatic vs manual debate - is that coming down firmly on either side leads to one of two psychological disorders. To wit:
The manual enthusiast, believing him/herself to be a five-speed virtuoso who can shuffle the synchromesh with the precision of James Hunt, develops a superiority complex and bangs on interminably about how no car worth driving has only two pedals.
The automatic devotee, by contrast, develops an inferiority complex and devotes hours to explaining, in excruciating detail, why the various technologies present in the latest twenty-seven speed automatic make it the best power delivery system since absolute monarchy.
The answer is that it's probably horses for courses, firstly, and, secondly, automatic drivers who go back to something with a manual 'box and don't like it probably aren't giving said car a fair crack of the whip. An out-of-practice-with-manuals driver isn't going to have a great time in something a bit tricky like an old Leyland sports car. Conversely, a dyed-in-the-wool manual driver is going to think anything automatic is a bit rubbish and be apt to be dismissive.
The real problem, however - at least in the context of the automatic vs manual debate - is that coming down firmly on either side leads to one of two psychological disorders. To wit:
The manual enthusiast, believing him/herself to be a five-speed virtuoso who can shuffle the synchromesh with the precision of James Hunt, develops a superiority complex and bangs on interminably about how no car worth driving has only two pedals.
The automatic devotee, by contrast, develops an inferiority complex and devotes hours to explaining, in excruciating detail, why the various technologies present in the latest twenty-seven speed automatic make it the best power delivery system since absolute monarchy.
The answer is that it's probably horses for courses, firstly, and, secondly, automatic drivers who go back to something with a manual 'box and don't like it probably aren't giving said car a fair crack of the whip. An out-of-practice-with-manuals driver isn't going to have a great time in something a bit tricky like an old Leyland sports car. Conversely, a dyed-in-the-wool manual driver is going to think anything automatic is a bit rubbish and be apt to be dismissive.
Edited by Missy Charm on Friday 17th May 20:35
BandOfBrothers said:
I had a manual E90 M3 for a while (naturally aspirated 4.0L V8, 8,000 rpm redline) and you could drive it like an auto and I often did.
It would happily pull away from a standstill and do up to 80 mph in second gear.
The manual box was therefore pretty irrelevant unless driving hard and then it was a distraction with so much else going on.
That car was wasted on you.It would happily pull away from a standstill and do up to 80 mph in second gear.
The manual box was therefore pretty irrelevant unless driving hard and then it was a distraction with so much else going on.
Leon R said:
BandOfBrothers said:
I had a manual E90 M3 for a while (naturally aspirated 4.0L V8, 8,000 rpm redline) and you could drive it like an auto and I often did.
It would happily pull away from a standstill and do up to 80 mph in second gear.
The manual box was therefore pretty irrelevant unless driving hard and then it was a distraction with so much else going on.
That car was wasted on you.It would happily pull away from a standstill and do up to 80 mph in second gear.
The manual box was therefore pretty irrelevant unless driving hard and then it was a distraction with so much else going on.
A DCT is the way forward with the S65 V8 engine I've always thought. However at the time I did like the idea of a V8 engine mated to a 3 pedal manual though.
cerb4.5lee said:
Leon R said:
BandOfBrothers said:
I had a manual E90 M3 for a while (naturally aspirated 4.0L V8, 8,000 rpm redline) and you could drive it like an auto and I often did.
It would happily pull away from a standstill and do up to 80 mph in second gear.
The manual box was therefore pretty irrelevant unless driving hard and then it was a distraction with so much else going on.
That car was wasted on you.It would happily pull away from a standstill and do up to 80 mph in second gear.
The manual box was therefore pretty irrelevant unless driving hard and then it was a distraction with so much else going on.
A DCT is the way forward with the S65 V8 engine I've always thought. However at the time I did like the idea of a V8 engine mated to a 3 pedal manual though.
https://www.redish-motorsport.com/BMWE9xE90E92E93M...
Pica-Pica said:
motorhole said:
I've driven some of the new BMW/Merc autos in hire cars. Godsend in heavy traffic and yes, they are smooth, reasonably quick and fuel efficient.
But one thing no auto gearbox can do is select a gear ahead of time. E.g. for me, it's quite common for me to approach a hazard such as a roundabout, read the traffic flow then arrive at the roundabout in the gear I need to provide the requisite amount of torque on demand. With a manual you can be proactive in this manner, whereas an auto is always reactive, no matter how quick it is.
Yes, you can drive like this with an auto in manual mode, paddles or otherwise. But you need to go through the gears to arrive at the one you need, you can't block shift from 5th down to 3rd for example.
Minor gripe. But it's always the first thing I notice when driving an auto and after a while it starts to 'grind my gears'
Wrong. My BMW F30 with ZF8 uses GPS/Sat Nav to downshift on the approach to roundabouts, and similar situations. The gear for exit is thus selected at entry, and allows you to balance the car through the roundabout and out - and X-drive makes wet roundabouts a doddle.But one thing no auto gearbox can do is select a gear ahead of time. E.g. for me, it's quite common for me to approach a hazard such as a roundabout, read the traffic flow then arrive at the roundabout in the gear I need to provide the requisite amount of torque on demand. With a manual you can be proactive in this manner, whereas an auto is always reactive, no matter how quick it is.
Yes, you can drive like this with an auto in manual mode, paddles or otherwise. But you need to go through the gears to arrive at the one you need, you can't block shift from 5th down to 3rd for example.
Minor gripe. But it's always the first thing I notice when driving an auto and after a while it starts to 'grind my gears'
As for block shifting, using the left push on the auto lever (that is going into sport mode), drops down two gears. The ZF8 steptronic really is superior to a manual - unless you enjoy pumping your left leg up and down.
I definitely think there's an inverse correlation between how enjoyable an auto box is to drive and how much power/torque an engine has though... most lower powered autos I've driven have done far too much gear changing and rev the engine far too much for my liking. I've just spent the week with a 1.2 130hp Peugeot 308 and even under fairly gentle acceleration it was revving the poor thing over 4000rpm, and any moderate bit of acceleration is met with a delay while it finds a lower gear. I ended up feeling like a complete boy-racer t
t when pulling out of junctions with any sort of vigour as the thing practically red-lined itself...Edited by Sofa on Friday 17th May 23:48
heebeegeetee said:
Nobody is talking about scrapping cars.
I'm just simply saying, that having just bought a manual, "fine" is absolutely not the word I would use to describe it. Archaic and inefficient are words I would choose, frustrating possibly another.
I totally agree that the actual act of changing gear is a piece of pi**, not least in the car I've just bought, but that also leaves me puzzled over the fuss people make about manual changing.
Each to their own, and horses for courses. I do think some of the modern dct 'boxes are amazing bits of kit and I have enjoyed using them.
When a car can drive itself faster around a track than you can, will you deem that an "enjoyable" driving experience?I'm just simply saying, that having just bought a manual, "fine" is absolutely not the word I would use to describe it. Archaic and inefficient are words I would choose, frustrating possibly another.
I totally agree that the actual act of changing gear is a piece of pi**, not least in the car I've just bought, but that also leaves me puzzled over the fuss people make about manual changing.
Each to their own, and horses for courses. I do think some of the modern dct 'boxes are amazing bits of kit and I have enjoyed using them.
BandOfBrothers said:
Shnozz said:
Pit Pony said:
Wacky Racer said:
Why have a dog and bark yourself?
Auto's all the way.
(I never thought I would ever say that)
Apart from my politics that haven't changed, my 20 year old self would be upset at the person I have become. Auto's all the way.
(I never thought I would ever say that)
Those with sport of supercars - do you use the paddles all the time or rarely?
I recently drove a Ferrari 458 GT car (fully stripped out, caged and on slicks) on track with flappy paddles and still managed to spin it, I would have been buggered (and hugely slower) if I had to drive that fast and change gear manually with a tricky clutch. I was overwhelmed by the speed of the thing even with it being a (very good) semi auto gear box.
I guess it all depends on what your idea of a "fun" car is - mine is one that scares the bejesus out of me. A semi auto in place of a manual in those types of cars just makes it slightly less daunting to try to approach the handling limits in.
I enjoy driving my manual 911 on road and track, but I also enjoy driving flat out in my sequential gear- flappy paddle track car, in this case the sheer speed is the thrill and, not being a professional racing driver, I simply could not approach the sorts of speeds I get up to in a manual car.
But for road driving it’s irrelevant as we’re all going to be driving EVs before long surely?
Sofa said:
I definitely think there's an inverse correlation between how enjoyable an auto box is to drive and how much power/torque an engine has though... most lower powered autos I've driven have done far too much gear changing and rev the engine far too much for my liking. I've just spent the week with a 1.2 130hp Peugeot 308 and even under fairly gentle acceleration it was revving the poor thing over 4000rpm, and any moderate bit of acceleration is met with a delay while it finds a lower gear. I ended up feeling like a complete boy-racer tt when pulling out of junctions with any sort of vigour as the thing practically red-lined itself...
Yes, thats exactly how I feel in the wifes Pug 2008. t when pulling out of junctions with any sort of vigour as the thing practically red-lined itself...Edited by Sofa on Friday 17th May 23:48
0a said:
heebeegeetee said:
Nobody is talking about scrapping cars.
I'm just simply saying, that having just bought a manual, "fine" is absolutely not the word I would use to describe it. Archaic and inefficient are words I would choose, frustrating possibly another.
I totally agree that the actual act of changing gear is a piece of pi**, not least in the car I've just bought, but that also leaves me puzzled over the fuss people make about manual changing.
Each to their own, and horses for courses. I do think some of the modern dct 'boxes are amazing bits of kit and I have enjoyed using them.
When a car can drive itself faster around a track than you can, will you deem that an "enjoyable" driving experience?I'm just simply saying, that having just bought a manual, "fine" is absolutely not the word I would use to describe it. Archaic and inefficient are words I would choose, frustrating possibly another.
I totally agree that the actual act of changing gear is a piece of pi**, not least in the car I've just bought, but that also leaves me puzzled over the fuss people make about manual changing.
Each to their own, and horses for courses. I do think some of the modern dct 'boxes are amazing bits of kit and I have enjoyed using them.
If you can't heel n' toe, I can understand why you'd find a manual frustrating and need something to change gears for you.
Had an interesting conversation with an extremely large driving lesson company last week who we provide cars for.
They want more EV on fleet, for many reasons, green agenda of being driven all day etc but the government won't listen to them about only being able to issue an "auto" licence.
So they will be having to buy manual petrol and diesel for as long as possible in order for people to get a full licence.
They want more EV on fleet, for many reasons, green agenda of being driven all day etc but the government won't listen to them about only being able to issue an "auto" licence.
So they will be having to buy manual petrol and diesel for as long as possible in order for people to get a full licence.
NDNDNDND said:
0a said:
heebeegeetee said:
Nobody is talking about scrapping cars.
I'm just simply saying, that having just bought a manual, "fine" is absolutely not the word I would use to describe it. Archaic and inefficient are words I would choose, frustrating possibly another.
I totally agree that the actual act of changing gear is a piece of pi**, not least in the car I've just bought, but that also leaves me puzzled over the fuss people make about manual changing.
Each to their own, and horses for courses. I do think some of the modern dct 'boxes are amazing bits of kit and I have enjoyed using them.
When a car can drive itself faster around a track than you can, will you deem that an "enjoyable" driving experience?I'm just simply saying, that having just bought a manual, "fine" is absolutely not the word I would use to describe it. Archaic and inefficient are words I would choose, frustrating possibly another.
I totally agree that the actual act of changing gear is a piece of pi**, not least in the car I've just bought, but that also leaves me puzzled over the fuss people make about manual changing.
Each to their own, and horses for courses. I do think some of the modern dct 'boxes are amazing bits of kit and I have enjoyed using them.
If you can't heel n' toe, I can understand why you'd find a manual frustrating and need something to change gears for you.
Look, I'm more than willing to hand in my card as an utter driving god and as a man, but please, if you're brought up on h gate car synco gearboxes you won't do well at one-upmanship. One-upmanship on transmissions is one area I'll do well.
Says "he".
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