EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
stevemcs said:
KingGary said:
I think you’ll find Ford Credit was introduced around 1990, I know because aged 19, 3 of my mates all bought new Orions 1.6 LXs no less, all from the same dealer.
I think it’s unfair to suggest Ford owners aspire to own something “better” I grew up with them in my life, learned to drive in a MK1 Fiesta, and we’ve owned one ever since, a mk4 Focus ST. We love them and have no desire for a German car. Fords have pedigree, character and a loyal following. Don’t want a Puma or Mustang though.
Same here, although I may have to go German. With the exception of a focus st or a Mustang nothing Ford offers floats my boatI think it’s unfair to suggest Ford owners aspire to own something “better” I grew up with them in my life, learned to drive in a MK1 Fiesta, and we’ve owned one ever since, a mk4 Focus ST. We love them and have no desire for a German car. Fords have pedigree, character and a loyal following. Don’t want a Puma or Mustang though.
Even the engines made for Aston were German.
M4cruiser said:
Dave200 said:
4.6m is coincidentally the exact same size as the new Discovery Sport, a mid-size SUV that will seat 5 plus dog/luggage easily.
The EV6 weighs about 2 tonnes. You'll never believe how much the Discovery Sport weighs. But that still won't stop the bogeyman wibbling.
Discovery Sport is rather a niche vehicle. Not a huge seller family saloon.The EV6 weighs about 2 tonnes. You'll never believe how much the Discovery Sport weighs. But that still won't stop the bogeyman wibbling.
And I'd bet the EV6 is going to be more reliable
stevemcs said:
Same here, although I may have to go German. With the exception of a focus st or a Mustang nothing Ford offers floats my boat
Ditto. I have a Ford that I'm really happy with. I'd have a newer one...except they stopped making anything I'd actually buy around 2010. I'd like a Mustang but being practical it could only ever be a 2nd (or third!) car, Focus ST Estate maybe but smaller than the Mondeo.
M4cruiser said:
Do we really want the likes of EV6, Ioniq 5 or 6, Ariya, all of which are over 4.6m long, and tall with it. Even the Puma is only 4.2m.
4.4 metres is a handier size for an "urban" SUV. My wife refused to replace her mk1 Tiguan wth the new one as it was "too big". Bought a Karoq instead.Sheepshanks said:
M4cruiser said:
Do we really want the likes of EV6, Ioniq 5 or 6, Ariya, all of which are over 4.6m long, and tall with it. Even the Puma is only 4.2m.
4.4 metres is a handier size for an "urban" SUV. My wife refused to replace her mk1 Tiguan wth the new one as it was "too big". Bought a Karoq instead.Dave200 said:
Had she wanted the 5 seater Kodiak with an ice engine, it would have been about 4.7m and about 2 tonnes. Basically the same as the EV6. Hopefully we can put to bed this silly idea that all EVs are heavier than their ice equivalents.
You're comparing apples with oranges. The Skoda is an SUV with 910L boot in 5 seater configuration, the EV6 a large 5 seater hatchback with a 490L boot. The Kodiaq and Enyak are essentially the same car, the Kodiaq weighs 1650-1900KG, the Enyak 1950-2150KG.
A 440i x-drive GC weighs 1900KG, an i4 M50 2250KG.
A Panamera 4S weighs 2000KG, a Taycan 4S 2300KG.
EV's are always heavier if you compare like for like.
Dave200 said:
They are both medium sized SUVs, with similar capacity for passengers and loads. They are both 4.6m long, and they both weigh 2 tonnes. It just disproves the rubbish that EVs are all heavier than their ice equivalents.
829 litres of boot space for the DS v 490 in the EV6 so again, not comparable. The EV6 is a "crossover SUV" whatever that means..Edited by SWoll on Friday 17th May 07:46
SWoll said:
Dave200 said:
Had she wanted the 5 seater Kodiak with an ice engine, it would have been about 4.7m and about 2 tonnes. Basically the same as the EV6. Hopefully we can put to bed this silly idea that all EVs are heavier than their ice equivalents.
You're comparing apples with oranges. The Skoda is an SUV with 910L boot in 5 seater configuration, the EV6 a large 5 seater hatchback with a 490L boot. The Kodiaq and Enyak are essentially the same car, the Kodiaq weighs 1650-1900KG, the Enyak 1950-2150KG.
A 440i x-drive GC weighs 1900KG, an i4 M50 2250KG.
A Panamera 4S weighs 2000KG, a Taycan 4S 2300KG.
EV's are always heavier if you compare like for like.
Dave200 said:
They are both medium sized SUVs, with similar capacity for passengers and loads. They are both 4.6m long, and they both weigh 2 tonnes. It just disproves the rubbish that EVs are all heavier than their ice equivalents.
829 litres of boot space for the DS v 490 in the EV6 so again, not comparable. The EV6 is a "crossover SUV" whatever that means..Edited by SWoll on Friday 17th May 07:46
Let's compare the EV6 to similarly sloping roofed crossover things in that case. Its boot is a similar size to the X4 and GLC coupe, yet it manages to be both shorter than and of comparable weight to both.
Edited by Dave200 on Friday 17th May 09:37
With respect, my i4 M50 disagrees. It’s a complete heifer compared to any of the ICE 4 series grand coupes.
It’s another area where the devil is in the detail and you can find examples to illustrate it from both positions.
I think it’s fair to say that an EV doesn’t have to be much heavier than an ICE equivalent, if properly engineered on a dedicated platform with weight in mind.
At the moment with a lot of shared platforms still in use and/or huge battery packs being fitted to meet the consumer demand for high range, they often are heavier.
It’s another area where the devil is in the detail and you can find examples to illustrate it from both positions.
I think it’s fair to say that an EV doesn’t have to be much heavier than an ICE equivalent, if properly engineered on a dedicated platform with weight in mind.
At the moment with a lot of shared platforms still in use and/or huge battery packs being fitted to meet the consumer demand for high range, they often are heavier.
charltjr said:
With respect, my i4 M50 disagrees. It’s a complete heifer compared to any of the ICE 4 series grand coupes.
It’s another area where the devil is in the detail and you can find examples to illustrate it from both positions.
I think it’s fair to say that an EV doesn’t have to be much heavier than an ICE equivalent, if properly engineered on a dedicated platform with weight in mind.
At the moment with a lot of shared platforms still in use and/or huge battery packs being fitted to meet the consumer demand for high range, they often are heavier.
Drag coefficient of 0.25 vs 0.28 goes a long way to compensate for the extra mass.It’s another area where the devil is in the detail and you can find examples to illustrate it from both positions.
I think it’s fair to say that an EV doesn’t have to be much heavier than an ICE equivalent, if properly engineered on a dedicated platform with weight in mind.
At the moment with a lot of shared platforms still in use and/or huge battery packs being fitted to meet the consumer demand for high range, they often are heavier.
SUVs even more so, as the ICE versions are typically over 0.3, whereas iX is only 0.25.
Dave200 said:
Your Discovery and Skoda boot volumes are measured to the roof, while the Kia isn't.
Let's compare the EV6 to similarly sloping roofed crossover things in that case. Its boot is a similar size to the X4 and GLC coupe, yet it manages to be both shorter than and of comparable weight to both.
The point was that comparing cars from different manufacturers is a pointless measure. Just have a look at the difference in weight between the GLC and EQC to see what I mean. 4-500KG in what is an identical car. Like for like EV's are considerably heavier than their ICE couterparts.Let's compare the EV6 to similarly sloping roofed crossover things in that case. Its boot is a similar size to the X4 and GLC coupe, yet it manages to be both shorter than and of comparable weight to both.
Edited by Dave200 on Friday 17th May 09:37
And yes, something like a Model 3 is a similar weight to an ICE BMW 3 series, but anyone who's owned one can confirm how they've managed that.
BricktopST205 said:
An EV will never weight the same as an ICE until the energy density of its batteries can match those of petrol when taking into account efficiency differences. It is very simple really.
Whilst conveniently ignoring coefficient of drag...Weight is not the only measure of how good a car is, above 50 mph, slipperiness is more better.
It's very simple really.
BricktopST205 said:
An EV will never weight the same as an ICE until the energy density of its batteries can match those of petrol when taking into account efficiency differences. It is very simple really.
That's not true. An electric motor, inverter etc. is lighter than an equivalent ICE motor, gearbox etc., so the energy density of the battery only needs to move closer to that of liquid fuel before it would be a wash between them.Exactly how much closer it needs to get to be at that point is up for discussion I guess.
SWoll said:
Dave200 said:
Your Discovery and Skoda boot volumes are measured to the roof, while the Kia isn't.
Let's compare the EV6 to similarly sloping roofed crossover things in that case. Its boot is a similar size to the X4 and GLC coupe, yet it manages to be both shorter than and of comparable weight to both.
The point was that comparing cars from different manufacturers is a pointless measure. Just have a look at the difference in weight between the GLC and EQC to see what I mean. 4-500KG in what is an identical car. Like for like EV's are considerably heavier than their ICE couterparts.Let's compare the EV6 to similarly sloping roofed crossover things in that case. Its boot is a similar size to the X4 and GLC coupe, yet it manages to be both shorter than and of comparable weight to both.
Edited by Dave200 on Friday 17th May 09:37
And yes, something like a Model 3 is a similar weight to an ICE BMW 3 series, but anyone who's owned one can confirm how they've managed that.
Comparing cars from different manufacturers isn't pointless at all. It comprehensively puts to bed the silly notion that all EVs are heavier than their ice alternatives. Demonstrating that two cars from different manufacturers, which occupy the same segment and do exactly the same job, are similar sizes and weights irrespective of their powertrain disproves this completely. That Mercedes EVs are heavier than their ice counterparts doesn't really tell us anything.
BricktopST205 said:
An EV will never weight the same as an ICE until the energy density of its batteries can match those of petrol when taking into account efficiency differences. It is very simple really.
How about all the examples I've just shown? The X4, GLC and EV6 all occupy the same slopey-back crossover segment. They all have similar boot and passenger capacities, and are all roughly the same weight.Dave200 said:
I drove an M340i and a model 3 from the same year (2021) before I settled on the Tesla. If anything, I think the Tesla was better screwed together inside.
Comparing cars from different manufacturers isn't pointless at all. It comprehensively puts to bed the silly notion that all EVs are heavier than their ice alternatives. Demonstrating that two cars from different manufacturers, which occupy the same segment and do exactly the same job, are similar sizes and weights irrespective of their powertrain disproves this completely. That Mercedes EVs are heavier than their ice counterparts doesn't really tell us anything.
Nothing at all.Comparing cars from different manufacturers isn't pointless at all. It comprehensively puts to bed the silly notion that all EVs are heavier than their ice alternatives. Demonstrating that two cars from different manufacturers, which occupy the same segment and do exactly the same job, are similar sizes and weights irrespective of their powertrain disproves this completely. That Mercedes EVs are heavier than their ice counterparts doesn't really tell us anything.
Apart from like for like EVs are heavier.
As per here I'm currently researching the Diesel versions of the big Stellantis Traveller/SpaceTourer/Proace/Vivaro MPVs.
I just thought this was a particularly interesting image to share. Its the current state of the market summed up in one go, you'll never get a truer comparison between ICE and EV! Same dealer, same vehicle, same spec, same miles...
I just thought this was a particularly interesting image to share. Its the current state of the market summed up in one go, you'll never get a truer comparison between ICE and EV! Same dealer, same vehicle, same spec, same miles...
Gassing Station | Car Buying | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff