EV with real 300+ mile range?

[Big Nanas]

Dingu said:

You claim to know a lot for someone who doesn’t own one.

Exactly.
We regularly use my BMW i3s to go from Surrey to Northumberland. As we can't destination charge, it ends up being 1000 miles over seven days of public charging.
Over the past 3.5 years I've been doing this, the charging network has improved massively,. We last went in November and not a single charger was broken, neither did we have to queue.
But I guess I'm wrong.

[autumnsum]

PinkHouse said:

Every single EV manufacturer knows it, if they didn't believe it was so important then they wouldn't have to lie and overstate the claimed range in many cases by up to 200%

Who lied about their range?

[gmaz]

LordFlathead said:

only have to sit at a charger for 10 minutes for splash and dash

volt and bolt

[PinkHouse]

TheDeuce said:

PinkHouse said:

Great to see all the anecdotes about range anxiety apparently disappearing, you've either got to be living in a bubble or choosing to ignore the reality to claim that. So there aren't regular cases of chargers being offline or delays caused by waiting to charge at busy periods? I'm not denying the system works well for a select few but even then it's inconsistent at best and requires troubleshooting and extra steps compared to the average journey with alternative fuel types.

I think it's even more apt given the topic of this thread is focused on range. It's absolutely the most important consideration and greatest hinderance for EV mass adoption to date. Every single EV manufacturer knows it, if they didn't believe it was so important then they wouldn't have to lie and overstate the claimed range in many cases by up to 200%

The 'select few' are those that struggle with broken chargers or long queues - it's nearly always avoidable.

Any map app and most EV's own nav makes it very clear how many chargers there are and how many are free. If there's 12 chargers at a location and 7 are free, it's a very safe bet at least one will still be free when you arrive..

Same for broken chargers. The maps/apps tell you when the were last used, if it was 34 minutes ago it obviously works. Of it was 2 weeks ago... Guess what?

In a 200+ mile range EV you can't drive anywhere in the UK without passing more than enough rapid chargers even if some are busy. Other than complete bellends heading to major services chargers on Christmas eve I don't see why anyone needs to struggle these days.

Range is not the biggest hinderance in EV adoption, but BS press stories a out range anxiety and a lack of actual education is a hinderance.

Manufacturers don't overstate range, it's not upto them, it's the standardised test, same as ICE. Claiming that in 'many' cases it's overstated by 200% is nonsense.

The good news for you is that you're wrong in pretty much all your statements and assumptions. That's fantastic news given that one day you're likely to end up being an EV driver (age permitting)

You may believe my statements are wrong as they don't apply to your current situation, however taking a view across the country tells a different story. In our small corner of the internet, we mostly have driveways with ample off-street parking for home charging and often other cars in the garage to choose from for leisure trips etc. The reality is that most other people live in terraced housing/flats so would have to interact with the public charging network almost daily and deal with all the pain points. Most surveys still show range as the top sticking point for making the jump to EVs.

Also despite what you may think, I actually hope the pace of development picks up to solve range, charging time and battery longevity issues as the pace in development seems to have slowed over the past few years. I'm actually in the market for one myself, having test driven an eletre and taycan turbo ST in the last couple of weeks as I'm looking for something reasonably practical to replace the diesel E class estate and the taycan turbo seems like the best bargain on the used market. If the Merc EQS came in an estate/more practical body style then it would be the perfect solution for me

[TheDeuce]

PinkHouse said:

TheDeuce said:

PinkHouse said:

Great to see all the anecdotes about range anxiety apparently disappearing, you've either got to be living in a bubble or choosing to ignore the reality to claim that. So there aren't regular cases of chargers being offline or delays caused by waiting to charge at busy periods? I'm not denying the system works well for a select few but even then it's inconsistent at best and requires troubleshooting and extra steps compared to the average journey with alternative fuel types.

I think it's even more apt given the topic of this thread is focused on range. It's absolutely the most important consideration and greatest hinderance for EV mass adoption to date. Every single EV manufacturer knows it, if they didn't believe it was so important then they wouldn't have to lie and overstate the claimed range in many cases by up to 200%

The 'select few' are those that struggle with broken chargers or long queues - it's nearly always avoidable.

Any map app and most EV's own nav makes it very clear how many chargers there are and how many are free. If there's 12 chargers at a location and 7 are free, it's a very safe bet at least one will still be free when you arrive..

Same for broken chargers. The maps/apps tell you when the were last used, if it was 34 minutes ago it obviously works. Of it was 2 weeks ago... Guess what?

In a 200+ mile range EV you can't drive anywhere in the UK without passing more than enough rapid chargers even if some are busy. Other than complete bellends heading to major services chargers on Christmas eve I don't see why anyone needs to struggle these days.

Range is not the biggest hinderance in EV adoption, but BS press stories a out range anxiety and a lack of actual education is a hinderance.

Manufacturers don't overstate range, it's not upto them, it's the standardised test, same as ICE. Claiming that in 'many' cases it's overstated by 200% is nonsense.

The good news for you is that you're wrong in pretty much all your statements and assumptions. That's fantastic news given that one day you're likely to end up being an EV driver (age permitting)

You may believe my statements are wrong as they don't apply to your current situation, however taking a view across the country tells a different story. In our small corner of the internet, we mostly have driveways with ample off-street parking for home charging and often other cars in the garage to choose from for leisure trips etc. The reality is that most other people live in terraced housing/flats so would have to interact with the public charging network almost daily and deal with all the pain points. Most surveys still show range as the top sticking point for making the jump to EVs.

Also despite what you may think, I actually hope the pace of development picks up to solve range, charging time and battery longevity issues as the pace in development seems to have slowed over the past few years. I'm actually in the market for one myself, having test driven an eletre and taycan turbo ST in the last couple of weeks as I'm looking for something reasonably practical to replace the diesel E class estate and the taycan turbo seems like the best bargain on the used market. If the Merc EQS came in an estate/more practical body style then it would be the perfect solution for me

Almost everything you say is daft and sounds like an outdated regurgitation of what the press say about EV's.

The reality is that most of the UK population can charge at home, it's the minority that cannot. There are plans underway to solve that, it's already working in some areas and there's at least a decade before it needs to work everywhere.

You keep mentioning range as needing 'solving', those days are largely gone. Most regular EV drivers at this point would probably rather a lighter car if battery density could be improved - we simply don't need more than 200 miles-ish range - why on earth would we!? It's just plain stupid to pay for more range than you need 95% of the time.

The best bargain replacement for an estate is definitely an etron or iPace, I don't know why you mentioned a Taycan turbo .. If you specifically want an estate the options will be limited whatever powers the car - the manufacturers clearly feel that anyone who liked an estate in previous years might as well just have an SUV now. The good news is that an EV SUV typically handles far better than an ICE estate, despite being taller. Because.. there are benefits to electrification that are rarely mentioned when the debate is pointlessly swamped by 'range'.

We live on a tiny island, we don't need range - we need the best car to enjoy for the budget we have. That has been true since day one on PH.

[fatjon]

PinkHouse said:

You may believe my statements are wrong as they don't apply to your current situation, however taking a view across the country tells a different story. In our small corner of the internet, we mostly have driveways with ample off-street parking for home charging and often other cars in the garage to choose from for leisure trips etc. The reality is that most other people live in terraced housing/flats so would have to interact with the public charging network almost daily and deal with all the pain points. Most surveys still show range as the top sticking point for making the jump to EVs.

Also despite what you may think, I actually hope the pace of development picks up to solve range, charging time and battery longevity issues as the pace in development seems to have slowed over the past few years. I'm actually in the market for one myself, having test driven an eletre and taycan turbo ST in the last couple of weeks as I'm looking for something reasonably practical to replace the diesel E class estate and the taycan turbo seems like the best bargain on the used market. If the Merc EQS came in an estate/more practical body style then it would be the perfect solution for me

Total regurgitated rubbish. I have found more locked off petrol pumps than faulty chargers. I’ve never queued anywhere, ever to charge. I’ve never come close to running out of juice. I can load up 200 miles of charge while taking a pee and drinking a coffee. The one point I would agree with is home charging, if you can’t then an EV is a financial liability. At 80p/kwh on public charging you're better off with a V8 petrol and save money on fuelling.

[TheRainMaker]

TheDeuce said:

TheRainMaker said:

Ten minutes for 100 miles some might, in perfect summer conditions, with a charger giving out full power.

Most EVs won't come close to that. Realistically, 20-30 mins would be a safe bet.

Even an EV that can only accept 150kw charge speed is charging at 450mph, which would be 13 mins.

Ten would be 200kw.

There can't be many recent EV's that can't charge at 150kw+? Unless we're going to include smaller city cars that you wouldn't want to do a 300 mile trip in anyway.

It doesn't work like that, though.

Most cars will have a maximum charge speed of around 150kW; however, that speed soon drops off.

For example, the i4 M50, has a maximum charge speed of 207kW; however its average for 10-80% is 114kW.

Then factor in the highway max range of 200 miles in winter (EV database); it would take around 40kW to add 100 miles.

So by the time you have driven off the motorway, messed around with the charger, etc, 20-30 minutes will have easily passed.

My Polestar 2, on average, takes 20-30 minutes to charge 100 miles, from my experience.

[foggy]

If it’s a regular journey you’ll soon know where all the charging options reside. Something with a winter range of 225 miles will mean a choice of a handful of chargers for a comfy top up at the ~30% left stage for rapid charging. In summer you might just make it.

It’s unfamiliar journeys where I find the odd bit of range anxiety, or more realistically charging anxiety, can kick in, especially if you’re somewhere off the beaten track. Then it can mean making diversions and wasting time on slower chargers.

I found the EQS a particularly wide car and had a few clenching moments on country lanes. EQE felt much better from that POV. Go try a few EVs and see what you fancy.

Edited by foggy on Friday 17th May 22:46

[TheDeuce]

TheRainMaker said:

TheDeuce said:

TheRainMaker said:

Ten minutes for 100 miles some might, in perfect summer conditions, with a charger giving out full power.

Most EVs won't come close to that. Realistically, 20-30 mins would be a safe bet.

Even an EV that can only accept 150kw charge speed is charging at 450mph, which would be 13 mins.

Ten would be 200kw.

There can't be many recent EV's that can't charge at 150kw+? Unless we're going to include smaller city cars that you wouldn't want to do a 300 mile trip in anyway.

It doesn't work like that, though.

Most cars will have a maximum charge speed of around 150kW; however, that speed soon drops off.

For example, the i4 M50, has a maximum charge speed of 207kW; however its average for 10-80% is 114kW.

Then factor in the highway max range of 200 miles in winter (EV database); it would take around 40kW to add 100 miles.

So by the time you have driven off the motorway, messed around with the charger, etc, 20-30 minutes will have easily passed.

My Polestar 2, on average, takes 20-30 minutes to charge 100 miles, from my experience.

I was waiting for someone to quote a 10-80% average charge speed...

But we're talking about an en-route quick charge to add just enough to make the trip - plainly the car wouldn't be at either end of it's SoC, it would be somewhere in the middle where close to peak charge rate is achievable.

I last got 100 miles is ~15mins at a Sainsburys near Kings Lynn. We can argue all day about the exact figures but it makes no real difference - the point is that en-route charging is very simple and fast to get done on the sort of trip the OP has described, in any EV with a decent starting range. It's just not a deal breaker in car choice anymore. At least, it shouldn't be. I do understand a first time EV driver being range obsessed, but virtually all seasoned EV drivers couldn't give a crap - its mostly a none issue and when it is an issue, it's just not a big deal and is better than constantly filling up an ICE.

[TheRainMaker]

TheDeuce said:

TheRainMaker said:

TheDeuce said:

TheRainMaker said:

Ten minutes for 100 miles some might, in perfect summer conditions, with a charger giving out full power.

Most EVs won't come close to that. Realistically, 20-30 mins would be a safe bet.

Even an EV that can only accept 150kw charge speed is charging at 450mph, which would be 13 mins.

Ten would be 200kw.

There can't be many recent EV's that can't charge at 150kw+? Unless we're going to include smaller city cars that you wouldn't want to do a 300 mile trip in anyway.

It doesn't work like that, though.

Most cars will have a maximum charge speed of around 150kW; however, that speed soon drops off.

For example, the i4 M50, has a maximum charge speed of 207kW; however its average for 10-80% is 114kW.

Then factor in the highway max range of 200 miles in winter (EV database); it would take around 40kW to add 100 miles.

So by the time you have driven off the motorway, messed around with the charger, etc, 20-30 minutes will have easily passed.

My Polestar 2, on average, takes 20-30 minutes to charge 100 miles, from my experience.

I was waiting for someone to quote a 10-80% average charge speed...

But we're talking about an en-route quick charge to add just enough to make the trip - plainly the car wouldn't be at either end of it's SoC, it would be somewhere in the middle where close to peak charge rate is achievable.

I was responding to your "100 miles in 10 minutes", which, IMO, is not achievable on most EVs when on a motorway trip.

If you are picking the middle of the charge curve for an i4M50, the middle would be 100kW, a long way from the peak charge of 200kW I think we would both agree.

[TheDeuce]

TheRainMaker said:

TheDeuce said:

TheRainMaker said:

TheDeuce said:

TheRainMaker said:

Ten minutes for 100 miles some might, in perfect summer conditions, with a charger giving out full power.

Most EVs won't come close to that. Realistically, 20-30 mins would be a safe bet.

Even an EV that can only accept 150kw charge speed is charging at 450mph, which would be 13 mins.

Ten would be 200kw.

There can't be many recent EV's that can't charge at 150kw+? Unless we're going to include smaller city cars that you wouldn't want to do a 300 mile trip in anyway.

It doesn't work like that, though.

Most cars will have a maximum charge speed of around 150kW; however, that speed soon drops off.

For example, the i4 M50, has a maximum charge speed of 207kW; however its average for 10-80% is 114kW.

Then factor in the highway max range of 200 miles in winter (EV database); it would take around 40kW to add 100 miles.

So by the time you have driven off the motorway, messed around with the charger, etc, 20-30 minutes will have easily passed.

My Polestar 2, on average, takes 20-30 minutes to charge 100 miles, from my experience.

I was waiting for someone to quote a 10-80% average charge speed...

But we're talking about an en-route quick charge to add just enough to make the trip - plainly the car wouldn't be at either end of it's SoC, it would be somewhere in the middle where close to peak charge rate is achievable.

I was responding to your "100 miles in 10 minutes", which, IMO, is not achievable on most EVs when on a motorway trip.

If you are picking the middle of the charge curve for an i4M50, the middle would be 100kW, a long way from the peak charge of 200kW I think we would both agree.

You're probably right - I don't really know, chargers are so easy to find now I don't generally care to look for one until I'm 30% or less.

I'm not a charging speed geek, I don't obsess over miles per kw etc. I never obsessed over mpg when I had cars that were closer to gpm either.

I'm just a PH'er that is reprting that when I need to charge, I charge. It's generally very simple and I can add 100 miles in ~15 mins. I'm sure your point and graph is reasonable and accurate, and would be relevant if someone who wasn't fairly low on charge decided to charge anyway. I think it's more likely that most people, like me, only stop once they're slightly low on charge and will therefore charge quite quickly.

[740EVTORQUES]

Why is the random dude with a bit of internet browsing correct, and the myriad of actual EV owners with real world experience wrong?

I do exactly this (although at a lower mile point as my EV6 GT has a max range of around 215 miles realistically, I deliberately chose performance over range.)

In 18 months and 18,000 miles of use with regular long trips but mainly home charging, I’ve:

Encountered a broken charger once, and there was a free working one next to it

Never had to queue, not once.

Never had any trouble activating a charger, just tap and go with either my credit card or KIA supplied rfid card.

Never had to wait more than 20 minutes while charging

On average spent less time public charging than the time saved by not having to go to petrol stations during my normal commuting

Never been made late for anything by charging

Never run out of charge

Saved between £4k and £5k on fuel, VED and servicing.




If I was offered the same car today but say with a £5k option of a bigger battery with an extra 50 miles I wouldn’t bother.

That’s how little an issue range is.

But I’m sure the guy with Google on his side knows more than my real life experience.

[blueg33]

On a monthly basis I do a 160 mile drive to non stop to a remote destination with no charger. Do 2 hours work and drive back, typically cruising at 77mph on the motorway.

Are there any EV’s that can do that without me losing at least 30 mins charging en route?

Also, I think most EV’s recommend not charging above 80 percent doesn’t that make a 300 mile range ev actually a 240 mile range ev?

[MrTrilby]

OP asks what cars can reliably do two 140 mile journeys without having to spend time charging, and everyone’s answer seems to be no. There is another option and it’s what plug-in hybrids are great at.

They can genuinely offer the best of both worlds. On a daily basis ours offers the EV joy of cheap relaxed silent motoring and leaving the house each day with a full battery that easily completes the daily commute. It offers the EV joy of instant throttle response, 1 pedal driving in traffic. In petrol mode it’s better than the straight ICE car with utterly undetectable gear changes - you still get the seamless EV wall of continuous power at anything other than full throttle, and yet you get the petrol thrill of a decent sound track when driving on full throttle. Combined with diesel economy and an easy 500+ mile range.

140 miles is a perfectly reasonable distance to travel without stopping - no hypothetical enormous bladder required. People seem to forget when talking about range that it’s not the distance of a single journey that matters, it’s the distance until you can next charge/refill.

We don’t do big journeys that often - the last one involved me driving to work in the morning, driving to pick up family, and then driving to Durham in one hit in order to get there in time for dinner. That was around 270 miles. Accommodation options were limited and there was no destination charging. When we drove home we did stop for a lunch break, but at a time and place of our choosing. There were rapid chargers available but by then we’d travelled 350 miles which few EVs can do at motorway speeds.

So sure there’s a trade off. For us we valued the convenience of being able to not stop outbound and eat in a proper restaurant rather than a roadside fast food place. On the way back we valued being able to break the journey half way rather than having to stop early to charge. The cost of fuel was around the same as the cost of fast charging. We still ultimately do have to spend 10 minutes “fast charging” to fill the petrol tank, but again that’s easy to do at a time of our choosing - the next time we visit a super market or pass a cheap petrol station.

This is not to imply full EVs are lesser - clearly if most or all of your long journeys are still within the “can charge from home cheaply” range then there are cost benefits. If your car choice is dictated by company car tax then there are cost benefits to the EV. But conversely, if you have free choice of car and your long journeys don’t fit that profile, there a trade offs - we don’t have to plan our stops in advance, and our stops are dictated by when we feel tired/hungry so we can stop somewhere most suitable for us humans, and not by the car.

[Maracus]

blueg33 said:

On a monthly basis I do a 160 mile drive to non stop to a remote destination with no charger. Do 2 hours work and drive back, typically cruising at 77mph on the motorway.

Are there any EV’s that can do that without me losing at least 30 mins charging en route?

Also, I think most EV’s recommend not charging above 80 percent doesn’t that make a 300 mile range ev actually a 240 mile range ev?

Charge to 100% if you need it, the recommendation is generally not to if you're not using it.

A Model 3 RWD LR or Polestar 2 SM LR are two options, with real life ranges of 340 and 330 (in the summer), WLTP is 385 and 406 iirc. A sub 10 minute charge on your return may be needed, especially in the winter. Your 77mph won't help though!
For once a month, that isn't really too much of a hardship as the chances are that you would need to visit a fuel station for that amount of time during the month.

[740EVTORQUES]

blueg33 said:

On a monthly basis I do a 160 mile drive to non stop to a remote destination with no charger. Do 2 hours work and drive back, typically cruising at 77mph on the motorway.

Are there any EV’s that can do that without me losing at least 30 mins charging en route?

Also, I think most EV’s recommend not charging above 80 percent doesn’t that make a 300 mile range ev actually a 240 mile range ev?

No, charging a modern EV to 100% is absolutely fine, especially if it’s only once a month.

The thing that damages batteries and shortens their life is heat. Early Nissan Leaf batteries show this well, which is why there are so many for sale with significantly degraded batteries.

Current EVs have thermal management systems to prevent this.


Charging a battery to 100% is fine as long as you don’t leave it fully charged for an extended period. Likewise modern EVs can handle fast charging much better and throttle the rate as you reach maximum.

I charge my EV6 GT to 80% on a 7kW home charger as the resultant 165 mile range is all I need. Before a long trip I charge it to 100%. Then when it gets down to 20-30% en route I fast charge at a DC public charger (having pre-heated the battery to increase charging speed). The charge is usually only a top up, enough to get me home and takes less than 10 minutes usually. I get home with 10-30 miles left and plug in to my home charger again.


The battery wear with this strategy is extremely low, well under 0.5%

I have petrol cars which I could easily use when doing long trips. I never do, which says it all really.

So long journies once a month are simply not an issue even for my EV which prioritises performance over range.

Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Saturday 18th May 06:25

[740EVTORQUES]

740EVTORQUES said:

blueg33 said:

On a monthly basis I do a 160 mile drive to non stop to a remote destination with no charger. Do 2 hours work and drive back, typically cruising at 77mph on the motorway.

Are there any EV’s that can do that without me losing at least 30 mins charging en route?

Also, I think most EV’s recommend not charging above 80 percent doesn’t that make a 300 mile range ev actually a 240 mile range ev?

No, charging a modern EV to 100% is absolutely fine, especially if it’s only once a month.

The thing that damages batteries and shortens their life is heat. Early Nissan Leaf batteries show this well, which is why there are so many for sale with significantly degraded batteries.

Current EVs have thermal management systems to prevent this.


Charging a battery to 100% is fine as long as you don’t leave it fully charged for an extended period. Likewise modern EVs can handle fast charging much better and throttle the rate as you reach maximum.

I charge my EV6 GT to 80% on a 7kW home charger as the resultant 165 mile range is all I need. Before a long trip I charge it to 100%. Then when it gets down to 20-30% en route I fast charge at a DC public charger (having pre-heated the battery to increase charging speed). The charge is usually only a top up, enough to get me home and takes less than 10 minutes usually. I get home with 10-30 miles left and plug in to my home charger again.


The battery wear with this strategy is extremely low, well under 0.5%

I have petrol cars which I could easily use when doing long trips. I never do, which says it all really.

So long journeys once a month are simply not an issue even for my EV which prioritises performance over range.

[GT9]

PinkHouse said:

I'm actually in the market for one myself, having test driven an eletre and taycan turbo ST in the last couple of weeks as I'm looking for something reasonably practical to replace the diesel E class estate and the taycan turbo seems like the best bargain on the used market. If the Merc EQS came in an estate/more practical body style then it would be the perfect solution for me

National Highways have been trialling 60 mph motorway limits in England, with the aim to reduce roadside NOx readings.

Whilst these trials have been successful in doing just that, they've taken the view that the ZEV mandate will achieve the same thing longer term without speed reductions, predominantly because new diesel sales have fallen through the floor.

EVs are essentially replacing diesel cars right now and that will probably remain the case until 2035, I don't think petrol car numbers (including hybrid) will actually decrease at all before then.

You, and others, bombing along at 75-85 mph in your diesel estate, are exactly the people who can make an important collective difference to keeping them thinking like that, by switching to EV or even petrol, assuming the diesel goes to a new home where average speeds and mileages might be lower.

[Puzzles]

The new model 3LR will do over 300, that’s where my money would be going.

[annodomini2]

PinkHouse said:

You may believe my statements are wrong as they don't apply to your current situation, however taking a view across the country tells a different story. In our small corner of the internet, we mostly have driveways with ample off-street parking for home charging and often other cars in the garage to choose from for leisure trips etc. The reality is that most other people live in terraced housing/flats so would have to interact with the public charging network almost daily and deal with all the pain points. Most surveys still show range as the top sticking point for making the jump to EVs.

Also despite what you may think, I actually hope the pace of development picks up to solve range, charging time and battery longevity issues as the pace in development seems to have slowed over the past few years. I'm actually in the market for one myself, having test driven an eletre and taycan turbo ST in the last couple of weeks as I'm looking for something reasonably practical to replace the diesel E class estate and the taycan turbo seems like the best bargain on the used market. If the Merc EQS came in an estate/more practical body style then it would be the perfect solution for me

30% of properties in the UK don't have off street parking, of those about 50% actually own a car.

So 15% of the market.

So no it's not "most".

Most people only drive more than 50 miles in a single journey a few times a year.

Are there those who do more than that daily, yes.

Are they as common as some would make out, no.

Do EVs fit every use case, no.

Why are the most outspoken those who's use case doesn't fit EVs and assume it doesn't fit anyone else??