CV19 - Cure Worse Than The Disease? (Vol 19)

[Elysium]

isaldiri said:

Elysium said:

It does make sense that the Bergamo death toll might be due to a wave of infection affecting a large proportion of the population.

That would point to it having started rather earlier than thought. I do remember that at the time it was reported that the region had a high population of Chinese immigrants working in manufacturing industries.

Not really sure it started earlier than thought either tbh. The istat data shows all the deaths heavily concentrated in March and April 2020. If covid has started much earlier, the deaths would have shown up before then.

I tend to think the early reports about chinese immigrants were ultimately incorrect as well tbh - while I certainly did believe that initially when the UK was being touted as being '2 weeks behind' (which I wrongly as it turned out didn't agree with) but looking back at things later without the lens of some quite fevered speculation at that time, given what happened in Madrid and parts of London and indeed Cremona (seemingly very different economic characteristics to Bergamo despite proximity and no obvious Chinese manufacturing link that stands to scrutiny), it seems more a case of circumstances being favourable for large scale infections (crowded indoor spaces with infections then spilling over into households/care homes). for whatever reason, Bergamo/Cremona (almost as hard hit in spring2020) just got those circumstances where it passed through most of the population very early and very quickly.

I think this reinforces for me that there are some things we still don’t fully understand about what happened.

The official argument will be that lockdown saved us from this sort of explosive wave of infections. But Sweden shows us that lockdown was not necessary.

We have previously agreed that behaviour change slowed infection in the UK. So it sort of follows that simply knowing what was coming was enough to change it. In which case Bergamo shows what happens when you are blindsided.

[mko9]

Elysium said:

jameswills said:

Elysium said:

It is fascinating that there is very little discussion of the bizarre videos from China that emerged in the early days.

The number of deaths in Bergamo and New York are also still something of a mystery, although there are people looking into the New York numbers.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-mystery-why...

45,000 deaths in a population of 8.5million equates to a population fatality rate of 0.5%. About 70% higher than the UK.

Or none of it happened. That’s the actual truth. When we looked out the window in 2020, did anyone see people dying in the streets? How many of your friends and relatives died or were even remotely ill in that time? For me, none.

So the young chap I met in the barbers who was shuffling around like an old man after being intubated for a month didn’t exist?

Most likely the damage was done by the intubation, not Covid. (Not saying he didn't have Covid)

[isaldiri]

Elysium said:

I think this reinforces for me that there are some things we still don’t fully understand about what happened.

The official argument will be that lockdown saved us from this sort of explosive wave of infections. But Sweden shows us that lockdown was not necessary.

We have previously agreed that behaviour change slowed infection in the UK. So it sort of follows that simply knowing what was coming was enough to change it. In which case Bergamo shows what happens when you are blindsided.

I'd agree with most of that, the behaviour change needed to reduce covid infections greatly was not that difficult to achieve and it definitely did not require lockdown restrictions. However that does go back to the original problem that covid was I suppose ie being a political and social one - Starting from how early to implement restrictions that would do so and to what level of restrictions such that the numbers infected/dying remains 'acceptable'. As I've said before, I'm not sure the answer to that from the general public in today's world is necessarily one we might agree with......

mko9 said:

Most likely the damage was done by the intubation, not Covid. (Not saying he didn't have Covid)

Well, that is indeed possible but without intubation if covid kills you then that damage is the lesser evil I suppose...

[alangla]

isaldiri said:

Elysium said:

I think this reinforces for me that there are some things we still don’t fully understand about what happened.

The official argument will be that lockdown saved us from this sort of explosive wave of infections. But Sweden shows us that lockdown was not necessary.

We have previously agreed that behaviour change slowed infection in the UK. So it sort of follows that simply knowing what was coming was enough to change it. In which case Bergamo shows what happens when you are blindsided.

I'd agree with most of that, the behaviour change needed to reduce covid infections greatly was not that difficult to achieve and it definitely did not require lockdown restrictions. However that does go back to the original problem that covid was I suppose ie being a political and social one - Starting from how early to implement restrictions that would do so and to what level of restrictions such that the numbers infected/dying remains 'acceptable'. As I've said before, I'm not sure the answer to that from the general public in today's world is necessarily one we might agree with......

I think you’re right, I suspect the whole “if it saves one life” argument, completely neglecting all the side effects, is one that’s cut through into the public consciousness, plus lockdown (as long as Amazon/ASOS/the local takeaway still delivers) is now seen as tolerable by the general population. As a result one might find more clamour for tight restrictions next time round, not less. The general mess that the country, economy & NHS is in isn’t attributed to what was done between 2020 & 2021 (2022 in Scotland)

isaldiri said:

mko9 said:

Most likely the damage was done by the intubation, not Covid. (Not saying he didn't have Covid)

Well, that is indeed possible but without intubation if covid kills you then that damage is the lesser evil I suppose...

While I can accept that things like Dexamethasone took a while to discover as a treatment, it still seems odd that something as extreme as forced ventilation was initially preferred as a treatment to the high volume oxygen that appeared to be favoured later. One would have thought that ventilation would have been a last resort after everything else had been tried.

[Elysium]

mko9 said:

Most likely the damage was done by the intubation, not Covid. (Not saying he didn't have Covid)

I think most of the damage was caused by intubation.

I had not realised that people on ventilators need to be put in medically induced comas so they don’t fight the machine.

He had spent over a month like that.

I do think that survival rates increased later in COVID as less people were treated this way.

Following on from Isaldiri’s point I also had a really interesting chat on a night out a couple of weeks ago. Over the last couple of years COVID had been avoided as a topic, but our group got talking about how strange it all was.

One chap said that if anyone tried to impose a lockdown do one would comply. I was surprised that everyone in the group agreed.

Whether that is the case or not in practice, it does seem to me that many people are starting to see that our response was somewhat hysterical.

Edited by Elysium on Saturday 18th May 11:26

[isaldiri]

alangla said:

While I can accept that things like Dexamethasone took a while to discover as a treatment, it still seems odd that something as extreme as forced ventilation was initially preferred as a treatment to the high volume oxygen that appeared to be favoured later. One would have thought that ventilation would have been a last resort after everything else had been tried.

I suppose there must have been a reason why the medics defaulted to invasive ventilation so quickly rather than just relying on high flow oxygen - perhaps experience from sars1 or similar from severe flu cases? One of the actual medical bods (chromegrill perhaps should he ever deign to drop in to do more than just hand out one of his lectures to the ignorant) would have been far better placed to answer it.

All things considered though, as far as early treatment protocol was concerned, I'm still of the opinion whatever was done was being done for the best of intentions even if it ultimately ended up not working so I don't really think that should be faulted. Certainly not as much as some of the other public health cockups.... That said, it would certainly be of interest to know how much pushback there might have been from icu doctors though to that early use.....

[jameswills]

So you can’t consider that all things done were actually nefarious and against humanity? Of all the things that were done and happened, that was actually the most logical conclusion. So why are we so opposed to thinking it?

[Elysium]

I remember this Doctor from New York very clearly.

He walked out of the emergency room as he was not prepared to keep putting patients on ventilators when it didn’t seem to help:



The condition he describes is exactly what Pneumothorax talked about in the early volumes of this thread. Patients with silent hypoxia. Conscious and breathing, but with blood oxygen levels that were not compatible with life.

Discussed further here:


https://time.com/5820556/ventilators-covid-19/

Edited by Elysium on Saturday 18th May 20:27

[andyA700]

jshell said:

And yesterday, finally, the NIH actually admitted to funding GoF on viruses at the Wuhan lab.

https://nypost.com/2024/05/16/us-news/nih-director...

I knew about that and was discussing it with my neighbour (who also knew about it) in mid 2020. Did you also know that the World Military Games, were held in Wuhan in 2019, and that there were outbreaks of Covid 19 then, which were subsequently spread around the World?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Military_World_...

[andyA700]

Elysium said:

jameswills said:

Elysium said:

It is fascinating that there is very little discussion of the bizarre videos from China that emerged in the early days.

The number of deaths in Bergamo and New York are also still something of a mystery, although there are people looking into the New York numbers.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-mystery-why...

45,000 deaths in a population of 8.5million equates to a population fatality rate of 0.5%. About 70% higher than the UK.

Or none of it happened. That’s the actual truth. When we looked out the window in 2020, did anyone see people dying in the streets? How many of your friends and relatives died or were even remotely ill in that time? For me, none.

So the young chap I met in the barbers who was shuffling around like an old man after being intubated for a month didn’t exist?

I have a next door neighbour, who caught it in late 2020 and now has long Covid. He is in his early fifties now and is virtually housebound. There are two Hungarian people down the road, who haven't been the same since they caught it in 2021. I have had three relatives die from it.

[andyA700]

jameswills said:

Elysium said:

So the young chap I met in the barbers who was shuffling around like an old man after being intubated for a month didn’t exist?

When was that? We weren’t allowed in the barbers for 4 months. So in that time he was intubated, then recovered and recounted his story to you?

Did you follow what his life was like during that period?

If you don’t call bullst on this, you’ve got to question your own sanity. Or….. you’re making stuff up.

You are a very nasty, insulting person.

[andyA700]

andyeds1234 said:

Elysium said:

jameswills said:

Elysium said:

It is fascinating that there is very little discussion of the bizarre videos from China that emerged in the early days.

The number of deaths in Bergamo and New York are also still something of a mystery, although there are people looking into the New York numbers.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-mystery-why...

45,000 deaths in a population of 8.5million equates to a population fatality rate of 0.5%. About 70% higher than the UK.

Or none of it happened. That’s the actual truth. When we looked out the window in 2020, did anyone see people dying in the streets? How many of your friends and relatives died or were even remotely ill in that time? For me, none.

So the young chap I met in the barbers who was shuffling around like an old man after being intubated for a month didn’t exist?

I honestly think you are attempting a discussion with someone who would benefit from discussing his thoughts with a caring professional.

I think he is beyond the help of a caring professional.

[RSTurboPaul]

andyA700 said:

jshell said:

And yesterday, finally, the NIH actually admitted to funding GoF on viruses at the Wuhan lab.

https://nypost.com/2024/05/16/us-news/nih-director...

I knew about that and was discussing it with my neighbour (who also knew about it) in mid 2020. Did you also know that the World Military Games, were held in Wuhan in 2019, and that there were outbreaks of Covid 19 then, which were subsequently spread around the World?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Military_World_...

Careful now, you'll be accused of being a swivel-eyed conspiracy theorist loon with that sort of talk

[jameswills]

andyA700 said:

jameswills said:

Elysium said:

So the young chap I met in the barbers who was shuffling around like an old man after being intubated for a month didn’t exist?

When was that? We weren’t allowed in the barbers for 4 months. So in that time he was intubated, then recovered and recounted his story to you?

Did you follow what his life was like during that period?

If you don’t call bullst on this, you’ve got to question your own sanity. Or….. you’re making stuff up.

You are a very nasty, insulting person.

Yeah that was below the belt, I apologise. I’ve had to put up with a lot of name calling so think I probably just snapped.

[Elysium]

jameswills said:

andyA700 said:

jameswills said:

Elysium said:

So the young chap I met in the barbers who was shuffling around like an old man after being intubated for a month didn’t exist?

When was that? We weren’t allowed in the barbers for 4 months. So in that time he was intubated, then recovered and recounted his story to you?

Did you follow what his life was like during that period?

If you don’t call bullst on this, you’ve got to question your own sanity. Or….. you’re making stuff up.

You are a very nasty, insulting person.

Yeah that was below the belt, I apologise. I’ve had to put up with a lot of name calling so think I probably just snapped.

Worth noting that I saw nothing insulting at all in your post.

Ironically, the only person who has insulted anyone in this exchange is andyA700

[jameswills]

Elysium said:

Worth noting that I saw nothing insulting at all in your post.

Ironically, the only person who has insulted anyone in this exchange is andyA700

No mine was an acerbic and confrontational comment. No need for it. Don’t want to bring the level down, we need healthy debate!

[r3g]

jameswills said:

No mine was an acerbic and confrontational comment. No need for it. Don’t want to bring the level down, we need healthy debate!

Yeah good luck with that one here james If you're not still sucking on the 4.5 year old virus-was-very-serious-and-deadly crack pipe then no debate is allowed here.

[Elysium]

r3g said:

jameswills said:

No mine was an acerbic and confrontational comment. No need for it. Don’t want to bring the level down, we need healthy debate!

Yeah good luck with that one here james If you're not still sucking on the 4.5 year old virus-was-very-serious-and-deadly crack pipe then no debate is allowed here.

You are not going to get debate anywhere if you characterise the people that disagree with you as “sucking on a crack pipe”.

[jameswills]

[r3g]

Elysium said:

You are not going to get debate anywhere if you characterise the people that disagree with you as “sucking on a crack pipe”.

Sadly I struggle to come up with a better characterisation for people who still believe the obviously faked footage of Chinese people face-planting the ground was very real and "proof" of the highly deadly virus. The highly deadly virus that was nothing more than a few sniffles and so pathetic that you needed to do a PCR test and crank the cycles up to 40x amplification for it to even register .

Edited by r3g on Sunday 19th May 23:04