Am I obliged to allow Octopus to fit a smart meter?
Discussion
James6112 said:
Louis Balfour said:
They can force you onto pre-pay. Which is reason enough. Pre-Ukraine the energy companies were RELATIVELY benign. Post, they have turned into absolute gangsters who I would not want at the controls of smart meters in our properties*
- We have lots of residential energy supplies and deal with the energy companies daily.
SpidersWeb said:
Why do you think that saving won't be made during the autumn/winter?
The Tracker prices have been constantly below the standard price for the last couple of years, so whatever point in the year you use electricity or gas it is cheaper.
From their websiteThe Tracker prices have been constantly below the standard price for the last couple of years, so whatever point in the year you use electricity or gas it is cheaper.
Over the warmer months, prices tend to be lower, and we expect them to increase – likely double – when the heating comes on and the sun starts setting earlier.
Tracker features Price Cap Protect, which caps the maximum daily price at 100p / kWh for electricity and 30p / kWh for gas – keep in mind that's a lot higher than the Ofgem Energy Price Cap, so if you can't afford prices to increase further, you're probably better off sticking with a protected tariff such as Flexible Octopus.
craig1912 said:
SpidersWeb said:
Why do you think that saving won't be made during the autumn/winter?
The Tracker prices have been constantly below the standard price for the last couple of years, so whatever point in the year you use electricity or gas it is cheaper.
From their websiteThe Tracker prices have been constantly below the standard price for the last couple of years, so whatever point in the year you use electricity or gas it is cheaper.
Over the warmer months, prices tend to be lower, and we expect them to increase – likely double – when the heating comes on and the sun starts setting earlier.
Tracker features Price Cap Protect, which caps the maximum daily price at 100p / kWh for electricity and 30p / kWh for gas – keep in mind that's a lot higher than the Ofgem Energy Price Cap, so if you can't afford prices to increase further, you're probably better off sticking with a protected tariff such as Flexible Octopus.
Now of course past performance is no prediction of future performance but this isn't a fixed term tariff that you are tied into, so if prices did buck the trend of the last couple of years and start to increase then you simply switch back to the standard rate tariff.
Shaoxter said:
Unless you have an EV which must be charged or a pool which needs to be heated between 4-7pm, I'm pretty sure Agile would have worked out cheaper for almost everyone.
This couldn't be true, surely?If peak time is 16:00 to 19:00 then that is when most people will be using most power. So most people will be paying the most money for the highest proportion of their power?
If everyone was on this tariff and decided to cook or whatever is using the power outside that time period, then the peak usage time would shift.
At some point we will need to check when peak time is to avoid using so much power at this time, potentially this will change each day.
Or perhaps the peak time will just extend from 15:00 to 20:00, with the costs more blended across that time.
Edited by .:ian:. on Saturday 18th May 08:36
.:ian:. said:
If everyone was on this tariff and decided to cook or whatever is using the power outside that time period, then the peak usage time would shift.
Is that not exactly the point of the tariff? If the energy companies encourage this behaviour change, there would no longer be a need to rely on coal (for now) and gas to meet peak demand. This means that far more of the electricity used is from renewables and potentially in future, the electricity cost would no longer be tied to the price of gas which gives us more energy security.John87 said:
.:ian:. said:
If everyone was on this tariff and decided to cook or whatever is using the power outside that time period, then the peak usage time would shift.
Is that not exactly the point of the tariff? If the energy companies encourage this behaviour change, there would no longer be a need to rely on coal (for now) and gas to meet peak demand. This means that far more of the electricity used is from renewables and potentially in future, the electricity cost would no longer be tied to the price of gas which gives us more energy security.borcy said:
Would the price shift as well? Ie become more expensive at night?
I think in the long run, we'll be looking at price variations according to the weather, rather than where the little hand is on the clock.It's an evolving market and the current situation of elaborate tariffs is just a phase it's going through, the changes over the next 3 to 5 years will be more significant than the changes over the last few years.
I think OCtopusare to some extent experimenting with early adopters and trying to change perceptions with loss leader products.
I'd quite like a smart meter, but in reality, we don't actually use much electricity so it's not a big deal.
OutInTheShed said:
I think in the long run, we'll be looking at price variations according to the weather, rather than where the little hand is on the clock.
That's exactly what happens now with Agile, with the cost of electricity depending on the demand from the grid and the amount of solar and wind generation. Lots of sun and wind and the price falls, little sun and wind and the price rises.Plus there is the regional variation, which can be very specific. This afternoon in my region between 3pm and 5.30pm the electricity price for the region is due to go from 13p/kWh to 30p. However for a few postcodes in the region, which mine is one of, during that time period there is going to be too much wind generation in the local grid that cannot be consumed locally and cannot be sent out to the national grid and so the electricity is being given away for free.
OutInTheShed said:
It's an evolving market and the current situation of elaborate tariffs is just a phase it's going through, the changes over the next 3 to 5 years will be more significant than the changes over the last few years.
The significance will be how the vast majority of the public are impacted. Currently the vast majority are on a standard tariff, because most have inertia about their energy supplier and unless you have a specific need to investigate alternate tariffs by saying having an EV, then most don't bother.OutInTheShed said:
I think OCtopusare to some extent experimenting with early adopters and trying to change perceptions with loss leader products.
They certainly are experimenting, although whether they are loss leaders is debatable. Their EV tariff, Intelligent Go, is priced with a higher than standard daytime rate so any loss from selling cheaper electricity than the market price overnight is undoubtably made up by that. And their time of use and day of use tariffs, Agile and Tracker, are priced at a wholesale price plus a margin so there is no reason why they would lose money on those.If the argument is that they are making less profit on those customers than on their standard tariff customers, then possibly.
OutInTheShed said:
I'd quite like a smart meter, but in reality, we don't actually use much electricity so it's not a big deal.
A pretty reasonable position to take.OutInTheShed said:
borcy said:
Would the price shift as well? Ie become more expensive at night?
I think in the long run, we'll be looking at price variations according to the weather, rather than where the little hand is on the clock.It's an evolving market and the current situation of elaborate tariffs is just a phase it's going through, the changes over the next 3 to 5 years will be more significant than the changes over the last few years.
I think OCtopusare to some extent experimenting with early adopters and trying to change perceptions with loss leader products.
I'd quite like a smart meter, but in reality, we don't actually use much electricity so it's not a big deal.
More broadly i think there's a lot of water to go under the bridge and fairly big chunks of government intervention rather than a leave to the market. I don't see the market moving to weather based anytime soon.
borcy said:
My thoughts were that may well be a phase of increasing prices at night as more people shift to night useage.
It would need an awful lot of people putting an EV on to charge overnight as there is currently a very significant difference between weekday daytime demand of around 33GW weekday daytime and 20GW demand overnight - https://emoncms.org/ukgrid and https://grid.iamkate.comSpidersWeb said:
It would need an awful lot of people putting an EV on to charge overnight as there is currently a very significant difference between weekday daytime demand of around 33GW weekday daytime and 20GW demand overnight - https://emoncms.org/ukgrid and https://grid.iamkate.com
There's also a pretty big difference in the output of solar farms....OutInTheShed said:
SpidersWeb said:
It would need an awful lot of people putting an EV on to charge overnight as there is currently a very significant difference between weekday daytime demand of around 33GW weekday daytime and 20GW demand overnight - https://emoncms.org/ukgrid and https://grid.iamkate.com
There's also a pretty big difference in the output of solar farms....SpidersWeb said:
borcy said:
My thoughts were that may well be a phase of increasing prices at night as more people shift to night useage.
It would need an awful lot of people putting an EV on to charge overnight as there is currently a very significant difference between weekday daytime demand of around 33GW weekday daytime and 20GW demand overnight - https://emoncms.org/ukgrid and https://grid.iamkate.comInthe long run, there are decisions to be made about how the market is regulated.
Should the plebs be protected from the reality of energy being more scarce in the winter?
As I see it ,the OCtopus market pricing game only works if a) only a few people are playing or b) everybody plays.
At the moment, there are only a relative few people on these tariffs, so it doesn't really affect what everyone else pays.
The smart meter system is a (nother) monumental mess, because it fundamentally doesn't offer 100% coverage of meter locations.
So some people are excluded. If being excluded was costing me lots and lots of money, I might get annoyed.....
Should the plebs be protected from the reality of energy being more scarce in the winter?
As I see it ,the OCtopus market pricing game only works if a) only a few people are playing or b) everybody plays.
At the moment, there are only a relative few people on these tariffs, so it doesn't really affect what everyone else pays.
The smart meter system is a (nother) monumental mess, because it fundamentally doesn't offer 100% coverage of meter locations.
So some people are excluded. If being excluded was costing me lots and lots of money, I might get annoyed.....
borcy said:
SpidersWeb said:
borcy said:
My thoughts were that may well be a phase of increasing prices at night as more people shift to night useage.
It would need an awful lot of people putting an EV on to charge overnight as there is currently a very significant difference between weekday daytime demand of around 33GW weekday daytime and 20GW demand overnight - https://emoncms.org/ukgrid and https://grid.iamkate.comWhy have the majority of the half of the population not shifted their consumption - likely unless they have an EV they see little point in it, and so realistically it isn't smart meters themselves that will increased demand in off-peak periods, but increasing take-up of EVs.
And as an aside, the cheaper electricity doesn't all tend to be overnight, but also from mid-morning to early afternoon.
OutInTheShed said:
The smart meter system is a (nother) monumental mess, because it fundamentally doesn't offer 100% coverage of meter locations. So some people are excluded. If being excluded was costing me lots and lots of money, I might get annoyed.....
You could say the same thing about the energy sector generally - should those who can't get mains gas complain they are having to pay more for oil or LPG.SpidersWeb said:
borcy said:
SpidersWeb said:
borcy said:
My thoughts were that may well be a phase of increasing prices at night as more people shift to night useage.
It would need an awful lot of people putting an EV on to charge overnight as there is currently a very significant difference between weekday daytime demand of around 33GW weekday daytime and 20GW demand overnight - https://emoncms.org/ukgrid and https://grid.iamkate.comWhy have the majority of the half of the population not shifted their consumption - likely unless they have an EV they see little point in it, and so realistically it isn't smart meters themselves that will increased demand in off-peak periods, but increasing take-up of EVs.
And as an aside, the cheaper electricity doesn't all tend to be overnight, but also from mid-morning to early afternoon.
OutInTheShed said:
The smart meter system is a (nother) monumental mess, because it fundamentally doesn't offer 100% coverage of meter locations. So some people are excluded. If being excluded was costing me lots and lots of money, I might get annoyed.....
You could say the same thing about the energy sector generally - should those who can't get mains gas complain they are having to pay more for oil or LPG.Half have yes, i think to get to what the NH consider a smart grid it needs 90% uptake. I think that's a way away yet.
I'm not sure how late the SM roll out is vs the original target.
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