The so called “carnivore” diet? Plants are bad to eat?!
Discussion
grumbledoak said:
PlywoodPascal said:
It’s harder than picking fruit off a tree though…
Yes, ancient hominids hunted, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t also forage.
Pop into your nearest woodland in February and let us know what you find to eat. Hell, try it today.Yes, ancient hominids hunted, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t also forage.
It is like that for most of the year across most of the world.
Krhuangbin said:
There are many anecdotes/reports I’m reading of people eating purely red meat, nothing else , and it has cleared up their entire minor/moderate health issues in one fell swoop.
Yet we’re told red meat causes bowel cancer and we shouldn’t eat too much.
Bit of a snip but these aren't mutually exclusive. Eating red meat (especially when processed) is linked to an increased risk of cancer. This link is as well proven as the link between smoking and cancer, but obviously smoking increases those risks far more. These cancers come about as you age so there's no evolutionary drive to prevent them. Yet we’re told red meat causes bowel cancer and we shouldn’t eat too much.
IIRC the numbers are something like a 20% increased risk which looks bad but if you're otherwise healthy then the background risk is 5% so it becomes 6%. However, I don't think anyone's done any long term studies on just eating red meat so that may increase or even decrease.
So if the diet induces weight loss (Being overweight also increases the risk of cancer btw...) then they may well feel better, not (pre)diabetic, less load on joints, more energy, more in control. And that may be a worthwhile trade off or even mean that the reduction in risk due to not being overweight improves your chances overall.
But not being fat and eating a balanced diet is likely better.
PlywoodPascal said:
grumbledoak said:
PlywoodPascal said:
It’s harder than picking fruit off a tree though…
Yes, ancient hominids hunted, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t also forage.
Pop into your nearest woodland in February and let us know what you find to eat. Hell, try it today.Yes, ancient hominids hunted, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t also forage.
It is like that for most of the year across most of the world.
Panamax said:
Humans are built to eat almost anything which is why there are sharp teeth at the front for tearing and flat teeth at the back for chewing. Look at a dog (carnivore) or cow (herbivore) and their teeth are different - suited to their own natural diet.
Humans can't exist on a pure herbivore diet of grass because we can't digest cellulose. True herbivores, known as ruminants, have completely different digestive systems.
AgreeHumans can't exist on a pure herbivore diet of grass because we can't digest cellulose. True herbivores, known as ruminants, have completely different digestive systems.
Panamax said:
Fasting? It's like claiming cars are made better if you let them rest for one day a week or perhaps park them up for 30 days once a year.
Hmm, not sure I agree with that bit. We have the ability to store fat in abundant times, and use that storage in lean times. I'm not saying there definitely are benefits to fasting but it's entirely possible that there are, and that living 24/7 in "abundant times" mode is not actually optimal.
Edited by budgie smuggler on Tuesday 14th May 11:30
MercedesClassic said:
Please elaborate as I'm interested to know more. My mate was talking about this at the weekend amongst other food debates. He's very obese, says 20 stone but also got degenerative mobility issues. I think in 2020 he was 22 stone and went on some diet, I'm saying Cambridge one to one but not sure. Was designed to put him into Keto mode or something. No fruit, no vegetables, little to no carbs but meat seems to be ok.
He dropped to 14 stone quite rapidly but I thought he looked gaunt and wrinkly, older maybe.
Anyway because he stopped the diet he's ballooned again and back on the diet. Trying to get back into Keto mode again.
What do you eat? Do you follow recipes or is it just fried steak every meal? What health improvement have you noticed and are they totally related to your diet or did you also make lifestyle changes? Thanks.
We tend to prioritise red meat, but the OH does like chicken so we do include that regularly. As our budget objects to steak on a daily basis, we do a lot with cheaper cuts of meat and long slow cooking. We make use of cream and butter sauces a lot, thickening by reduction rather than flour. It also helps increase the amount of fat, especially with chicken.He dropped to 14 stone quite rapidly but I thought he looked gaunt and wrinkly, older maybe.
Anyway because he stopped the diet he's ballooned again and back on the diet. Trying to get back into Keto mode again.
What do you eat? Do you follow recipes or is it just fried steak every meal? What health improvement have you noticed and are they totally related to your diet or did you also make lifestyle changes? Thanks.
The biggest health improvement has been in my joints. Shoulder injuries from playing rugby at school bothered me all my life. Totally fixed since going carnivore and i've now got full movement back for the first time since my teens.
Similar with my back after once being over ambitious with how much I was carrying once - never any pain now from it. If ever I do eat wheat, my back soon reminds me not to.
There's been no big lifestyle changes as we've always been active, only in so much as I can now do even more because of the increased energy, ease of putting on muscle and lack of pain because of the diet changes.
Bear in mind that our diet previously would generally be considered healthy. We're not talking jumping from junk food to carnivore. Our diet was the typical balanced diet, all home cooked from fresh ingredients. I've never been into junk food or ultra processed food. My early career was working as a chef, so cooking meals from fresh ingredients has always been second nature.
An interesting health benefit that we didn't expect includes hair growth. My hairline had started receding; now reversed. I also started to get grey patches, which have now regained their colour. The OH's hair is now much thicker, and I find far less of it everywhere (including the shower plug).
We both tan faster now. We just don't seem to burn in the sun anymore. I'm sure it's still possible, but we'd really have to start overdoing it in a big way.
Our skin has definitely improved. Much smoother and more youthful. The permanent bags under my eyes disappeared quickly. Age spots on hands are gradually fading. I'd say it was similar results to having mesotherapy.
Bill said:
Bit of a snip but these aren't mutually exclusive. Eating red meat (especially when processed) is linked to an increased risk of cancer. This link is as well proven as the link between smoking and cancer, but obviously smoking increases those risks far more. These cancers come about as you age so there's no evolutionary drive to prevent them.
The red meat / cancer thing really isn't well proven. It's based on dietary questionnaires (very unreliable) and very questionable categorisation. A McDonalds meal is classified under red meat. Do you think the risk factor there is the meat in the burger patties, or the fries and sugary drinks consumed alongside?
Repeated heating of polyunsaturated vegetable oils in fryers produces some very nasty carcinogenic chemicals. But yeah, it's definitely the 4oz of red meat in the burger causing cancer.
the oxidation of polyunstaured oils thing is way overplayed by those who rail against it.
the Maillard reaction in any food produces carcinogenic chemicals, so does burning toast... Eating meat (or anything) that's been roasted or fried or bbq'ed is going to expose you to compounds as reactive and potentially carcinogenic as eating the oxidised decomposition products of unsaturated vegetable oils.
the Maillard reaction in any food produces carcinogenic chemicals, so does burning toast... Eating meat (or anything) that's been roasted or fried or bbq'ed is going to expose you to compounds as reactive and potentially carcinogenic as eating the oxidised decomposition products of unsaturated vegetable oils.
Panamax said:
Fasting? It's like claiming cars are made better if you let them rest for one day a week or perhaps park them up for 30 days once a year.
There's a lot of well documented benefits to putting your body in a calorific deficit. Going from glucose to fat-burning kick starts autophagy and stimulates the production of GHG which helps with metabolism and cell repair. But the benefits drop off once you are at a low body fat < 20% and you're better off being healthy by putting on lean muscle mass.
Paul Saladino, (carnivore MD) probably the biggest proponent of the carnivore diet, came out the other week and said the carnivore diet is unhealthy, caused him major health issues, and he doesn’t do it any more.
And that’s the guy who for years said it was the healthiest best diet there is. Even wrote books about it.
Make of that what you will
And that’s the guy who for years said it was the healthiest best diet there is. Even wrote books about it.
Make of that what you will
Surely it’s going to be seeds, primitive breads and fruit before meat unless the ancient me is running after a mammoth and killing it with my teeth? Of course once I invented tools and spears I can move onto eating meat.
If you read enough into anything everything is good for you or bad for you!
If you read enough into anything everything is good for you or bad for you!
jagnet said:
We tend to prioritise red meat, but the OH does like chicken so we do include that regularly. As our budget objects to steak on a daily basis, we do a lot with cheaper cuts of meat and long slow cooking. We make use of cream and butter sauces a lot, thickening by reduction rather than flour. It also helps increase the amount of fat, especially with chicken.
So what do you actually eat? Meat sounds great, but without onions, garlic, carrots etc how do you make a sauce? dai1983 said:
My nieces husband is a PT and seems to rotate through every health fad going at that time. He has some dubious claims about COVID and was a fully paid up fan of the liver king until he was found out. Loves a random fitness piece of equipment like these Zuu straps that made him look like a gimp.
He's now on this carnivore train and his social media is full of anti MSM diet memes or pics of him ripped saying how he's on 3000 cal a day and losing weight. Behind all this facade is the massive anxiety about his health and that the last time my sister said she saw him happy was when he was fat 15 years ago.
So just around the time social media was in its infancy then rather than his diet. He's now on this carnivore train and his social media is full of anti MSM diet memes or pics of him ripped saying how he's on 3000 cal a day and losing weight. Behind all this facade is the massive anxiety about his health and that the last time my sister said she saw him happy was when he was fat 15 years ago.
boyse7en said:
So what do you actually eat? Meat sounds great, but without onions, garlic, carrots etc how do you make a sauce?
From the meat juices usually. Lots of flavour and goodness in them. But it's not like you're not allowed plant material, ever. Sometimes I'll throw some root veg into a casserole for flavouring. I just don't then eat them as part of the meal.A colleague tried the carnivore diet for 3 or 4 months. Steak, eggs, mince.
He wasn’t particularly overweight to begin with, but he did lean out quite considerably, with his body fat dipping to about 16 percent. He also reported that he no longer had food cravings, and felt his energy levels were more stable throughout the day.
I did ask him if he was worried about clogging up his arteries, so he showed me his blood work results that he’d had carried out.
Total 5.5
LDL 1.62
HDL 3.6
Tryglycerides 0.6
So whilst his total cholesterol and HDL was a bit high, his trig was very low and his ldl was well above optimal, so the ratios were what were particularly interesting.
Cholesterol/HDL ratio 1.53 (should be under 5.0, ideally under 3.5)
HDL/LDL ratio 2.22 (ideally over 0.4)
Triglycerides/HDL ratio 0.169 - (preferably under 1.74, ideally under 0.87)
He said he didn’t mention to his doctor what he was eating. She was talking about balanced diets and they recommended eating only about 5 or 6 eggs a week. Apparently she was stunned when he said he ate that many a day…
Admittedly this is just one person’s experience of it and not particularly scientific.
He wasn’t particularly overweight to begin with, but he did lean out quite considerably, with his body fat dipping to about 16 percent. He also reported that he no longer had food cravings, and felt his energy levels were more stable throughout the day.
I did ask him if he was worried about clogging up his arteries, so he showed me his blood work results that he’d had carried out.
Total 5.5
LDL 1.62
HDL 3.6
Tryglycerides 0.6
So whilst his total cholesterol and HDL was a bit high, his trig was very low and his ldl was well above optimal, so the ratios were what were particularly interesting.
Cholesterol/HDL ratio 1.53 (should be under 5.0, ideally under 3.5)
HDL/LDL ratio 2.22 (ideally over 0.4)
Triglycerides/HDL ratio 0.169 - (preferably under 1.74, ideally under 0.87)
He said he didn’t mention to his doctor what he was eating. She was talking about balanced diets and they recommended eating only about 5 or 6 eggs a week. Apparently she was stunned when he said he ate that many a day…
Admittedly this is just one person’s experience of it and not particularly scientific.
BoRED S2upid said:
Surely it’s going to be seeds, primitive breads and fruit before meat unless the ancient me is running after a mammoth and killing it with my teeth? Of course once I invented tools and spears I can move onto eating meat.
If you read enough into anything everything is good for you or bad for you!
other hominids had tools well before Homo Sapiens evolved - i.e. tools predate your digestive system. or perhaps more accurately, your digestive system evolved for a long period inside tool-using species. If you read enough into anything everything is good for you or bad for you!
Elmoslides said:
He said he didn’t mention to his doctor what he was eating. She was talking about balanced diets and they recommended eating only about 5 or 6 eggs a week. Apparently she was stunned when he said he ate that many a day…
Admittedly this is just one person’s experience of it and not particularly scientific.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5986484/Admittedly this is just one person’s experience of it and not particularly scientific.
Inflammation, not Cholesterol, Is a Cause of Chronic Disease
Worth a read. A high carb diet (>70% by weight) and processed sugars will cause inflammation and is a better predictor of heart disease rather than basing it off cholesterol. Which makes sense given that the nations with the longest lifespans also seem to have the highest cholesterol levels.
I do it for periods of time and include fasting.
The benefits of fasting are well known - so I tend to combine some fasts with moving onto carnivore diet which extends the Keto period right out.
Certainly find weight does drop and you lean out. Eggs for lunch etc
The main challenge is finding decent sources of meat to make sure your getting the best intake you can. When I switch back to a normal diet and end up with sugar/bread back in my diet its noticeable in terms of lethargy.
The benefits of fasting are well known - so I tend to combine some fasts with moving onto carnivore diet which extends the Keto period right out.
Certainly find weight does drop and you lean out. Eggs for lunch etc
The main challenge is finding decent sources of meat to make sure your getting the best intake you can. When I switch back to a normal diet and end up with sugar/bread back in my diet its noticeable in terms of lethargy.
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