Will VAR Change Football for the Better?
Discussion
48k said:
Without VAR, the officials were getting 82% of decisions correct. With VAR, they are getting 96% correct. It's never going to be perfect but it's in everyones interest to try and get the most correct decisions possible.
Who gets to decide what the correct decision is?There's often a disagreement between pundits, even ex referees who supposedly should know best
Getting the correct decision according to the letter of the law does not allow discretion.
Before VAR we were seeing players simulating and sometimes getting booked for it. The rules call for a more nuanced way of deception now. Then there is the 'there was no way he meant that' and the 'he knew nothing about it' incidents.
Before VAR we were seeing players simulating and sometimes getting booked for it. The rules call for a more nuanced way of deception now. Then there is the 'there was no way he meant that' and the 'he knew nothing about it' incidents.
Glassman said:
Getting the correct decision according to the letter of the law does not allow discretion.
The "letter of the law" says other wise:Law 12 Fouls and Misconduct
1. Direct free kick
A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:
This phrasing is common to the laws. The referee is there to interpret the laws as he sees the incidents. The simplest of rules is when a goal has been scored, in the absence of goal line technology the referee must judge that the ball has wholly crossed the line.
48k said:
it's in everyones interest to try and get the most correct decisions possible.
Why? If you go back to page 1 of this thread, I pointed out then, that this was the big lie VAR was sold on. It's in everyone's best interests that football engenders in the fans the kind of emotion that no other sport can. That's why football is the world's most popular sport. Part of that is wrong decisions.
If there a better feeling in football than a terrible decision going in your favour, especially away from home. The joy of scoring a goal that was a mile offside, or whatever. Getting a pen that you know never was. Or not conceding a pen that was stonewall. The fury of the home fans. Just brilliant. Far better than a correct decision.
Is there a worse feeling than being on the wrong end of the above scenario.
This is what I want from football. If you want binary justice, take up chess, and leave the game I've loved for 55 years the f
k alone. TwigtheWonderkid said:
48k said:
it's in everyones interest to try and get the most correct decisions possible.
Why? If you go back to page 1 of this thread, I pointed out then, that this was the big lie VAR was sold on. It's in everyone's best interests that football engenders in the fans the kind of emotion that no other sport can. That's why football is the world's most popular sport. Part of that is wrong decisions.
If there a better feeling in football than a terrible decision going in your favour, especially away from home. The joy of scoring a goal that was a mile offside, or whatever. Getting a pen that you know never was. Or not conceding a pen that was stonewall. The fury of the home fans. Just brilliant. Far better than a correct decision.
Is there a worse feeling than being on the wrong end of the above scenario.
This is what I want from football. If you want binary justice, take up chess, and leave the game I've loved for 55 years the f
k alone. TwigtheWonderkid said:
48k said:
it's in everyones interest to try and get the most correct decisions possible.
Why? If you go back to page 1 of this thread, I pointed out then, that this was the big lie VAR was sold on. It's in everyone's best interests that football engenders in the fans the kind of emotion that no other sport can. That's why football is the world's most popular sport. Part of that is wrong decisions.
If there a better feeling in football than a terrible decision going in your favour, especially away from home. The joy of scoring a goal that was a mile offside, or whatever. Getting a pen that you know never was. Or not conceding a pen that was stonewall. The fury of the home fans. Just brilliant. Far better than a correct decision.
Is there a worse feeling than being on the wrong end of the above scenario.
This is what I want from football. If you want binary justice, take up chess, and leave the game I've loved for 55 years the f
k alone. Name any sport in the world that accepts cheating as part of the game. Or that has barely moved on in those 55 years. Football, great game though it is, is the world's oldest dinosaur in terms of progress. Its popularity comes from its simplicity and ease of access (anyone can play anywhere), not because of on field decisions, player abuse, player cheating etc.
Ideally all decisions should be correct, no player should cheat or backchat the ref. It's unacceptable in every global sport and yet some football fans think this is a good thing.
We still desperately need mic'ed up refs and sin bins too and getting rid of VAR will set the sport back years!
This is all a bit irrelevant when, as shown above, a far higher proportion of decisions are correct with VAR....
Frimley111R said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
48k said:
it's in everyones interest to try and get the most correct decisions possible.
Why? If you go back to page 1 of this thread, I pointed out then, that this was the big lie VAR was sold on. It's in everyone's best interests that football engenders in the fans the kind of emotion that no other sport can. That's why football is the world's most popular sport. Part of that is wrong decisions.
If there a better feeling in football than a terrible decision going in your favour, especially away from home. The joy of scoring a goal that was a mile offside, or whatever. Getting a pen that you know never was. Or not conceding a pen that was stonewall. The fury of the home fans. Just brilliant. Far better than a correct decision.
Is there a worse feeling than being on the wrong end of the above scenario.
This is what I want from football. If you want binary justice, take up chess, and leave the game I've loved for 55 years the f
k alone. Name any sport in the world that accepts cheating as part of the game. Or that has barely moved on in those 55 years. Football, great game though it is, is the world's oldest dinosaur in terms of progress. Its popularity comes from its simplicity and ease of access (anyone can play anywhere), not because of on field decisions, player abuse, player cheating etc.
Ideally all decisions should be correct, no player should cheat or backchat the ref. It's unacceptable in every global sport and yet some football fans think this is a good thing.
We still desperately need mic'ed up refs and sin bins too and getting rid of VAR will set the sport back years!
This is all a bit irrelevant when, as shown above, a far higher proportion of decisions are correct with VAR....
He said terrible decisions.
These can take many forms and have no intent to deceive or cheat.
All of which adds to the drama one way or another.
If we needed proof of how much football fans love to moan about how the game is refereed, see how much we are still discussing decisions when they are almost always “right” nowadays.
Frimley111R said:
This is all a bit irrelevant when, as shown above, a far higher proportion of decisions are correct with VAR....
But when it's sucking the life and enjoyment out of the game for the majority of fans you've got to ask whether that is more important. Sport is supposed to be all about entertainment after all, as without those fans it wouldn't exist?Frimley111R said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
48k said:
it's in everyones interest to try and get the most correct decisions possible.
Why? If you go back to page 1 of this thread, I pointed out then, that this was the big lie VAR was sold on. It's in everyone's best interests that football engenders in the fans the kind of emotion that no other sport can. That's why football is the world's most popular sport. Part of that is wrong decisions.
If there a better feeling in football than a terrible decision going in your favour, especially away from home. The joy of scoring a goal that was a mile offside, or whatever. Getting a pen that you know never was. Or not conceding a pen that was stonewall. The fury of the home fans. Just brilliant. Far better than a correct decision.
Is there a worse feeling than being on the wrong end of the above scenario.
This is what I want from football. If you want binary justice, take up chess, and leave the game I've loved for 55 years the f
k alone. Name any sport in the world that accepts cheating as part of the game. Or that has barely moved on in those 55 years. Football, great game though it is, is the world's oldest dinosaur in terms of progress. Its popularity comes from its simplicity and ease of access (anyone can play anywhere), not because of on field decisions, player abuse, player cheating etc.
Ideally all decisions should be correct, no player should cheat or backchat the ref. It's unacceptable in every global sport and yet some football fans think this is a good thing.
We still desperately need mic'ed up refs and sin bins too and getting rid of VAR will set the sport back years!
This is all a bit irrelevant when, as shown above, a far higher proportion of decisions are correct with VAR....
Goal line technology is great, instant decision no impact on the flow or spontaneity.
Taking 5 mins, numerous replays from multiple errors to tell a ref hes made a clear & obvious error is not.
20 secs.... give the video assistant 20 sec or the onfield decision stands. If you send the ref to the screen, he then has 10 secs or his decision stands
Decisions don;t need to be perfect or always right, too much can be subjective about what constitutes an offence, but huge errors should not be there.
GT03ROB said:
but twig is not arguing about cheating, but allowing a quest for things to be perfect (when so many decisions are subjective) overrule the spontaneity of the game.
Goal line technology is great, instant decision no impact on the flow or spontaneity.
Taking 5 mins, numerous replays from multiple errors to tell a ref hes made a clear & obvious error is not.
20 secs.... give the video assistant 20 sec or the onfield decision stands. If you send the ref to the screen, he then has 10 secs or his decision stands
Decisions don;t need to be perfect or always right, too much can be subjective about what constitutes an offence, but huge errors should not be there.
I agree about the time limit for offsides. I don't believe the tech is bad but the officials are just not good enough. They seem to make up rules as they go along and get their boss to go on TV to back them up. Officials also shouldn't be allowed to referee in other league for the relatives of people who own PL clubs either. There may be no corruption but you can't give the impression of it either.Goal line technology is great, instant decision no impact on the flow or spontaneity.
Taking 5 mins, numerous replays from multiple errors to tell a ref hes made a clear & obvious error is not.
20 secs.... give the video assistant 20 sec or the onfield decision stands. If you send the ref to the screen, he then has 10 secs or his decision stands
Decisions don;t need to be perfect or always right, too much can be subjective about what constitutes an offence, but huge errors should not be there.
48k said:
TEKNOPUG said:
48k said:
No way will Wolves get 13 other clubs voting to scrap VAR.
Why do the clubs' want it though? Where's the financial angle?They can't all think that they benefit from VAR making decisions?
There are some simple steps that could be taken to mitigate VAR use.
Firstly, better officials would lead to less VAR intervention. We have the richest league in the world, driven by the ability to attract the best players from all over the world. So why aren't we employing the best officials from all over the world? Officials are fully professional, yet they are being run like amateurs. Do we have trade restrictions stopping the employment of foreign officials? The PGMOL is being run like an old boys club; amateurs in charge of a multi-billion pound industry. Get the best officials in and improve the game. It will also lessen the accusations of club allegiance.
Secondly, cheating. This is an easy one to fix and could have been done pre-VAR. Post match reviews of any contentious issues. Retrospective red cards for any players deemed to have simulated either a dive or injury. Players will then know that there is a very high chance that they will be caught and suspended for 3 games. Double it to 6 for another offence in the same season. And so on. The impetus then also falls on the manager to instill discipline, as having a lot of players suspended is going to have a big impact on their career. It also has a second benefit of making the official's job easier, as players are less inclined to simulate and officials are more likely to make the right call, knowing that less players are attempting to con them. All this leads to less requirement for VAR intervention.
Offside. Officials need to be trained/instructed to flag for obvious offsides. The amount of times that an obvious offside has been allowed to continue and reviewed afterwards, all whilst play continues and defenders are making unnecessary desperate challenges, risking injury to both themselves and the attackers is crazy.
Firstly, better officials would lead to less VAR intervention. We have the richest league in the world, driven by the ability to attract the best players from all over the world. So why aren't we employing the best officials from all over the world? Officials are fully professional, yet they are being run like amateurs. Do we have trade restrictions stopping the employment of foreign officials? The PGMOL is being run like an old boys club; amateurs in charge of a multi-billion pound industry. Get the best officials in and improve the game. It will also lessen the accusations of club allegiance.
Secondly, cheating. This is an easy one to fix and could have been done pre-VAR. Post match reviews of any contentious issues. Retrospective red cards for any players deemed to have simulated either a dive or injury. Players will then know that there is a very high chance that they will be caught and suspended for 3 games. Double it to 6 for another offence in the same season. And so on. The impetus then also falls on the manager to instill discipline, as having a lot of players suspended is going to have a big impact on their career. It also has a second benefit of making the official's job easier, as players are less inclined to simulate and officials are more likely to make the right call, knowing that less players are attempting to con them. All this leads to less requirement for VAR intervention.
Offside. Officials need to be trained/instructed to flag for obvious offsides. The amount of times that an obvious offside has been allowed to continue and reviewed afterwards, all whilst play continues and defenders are making unnecessary desperate challenges, risking injury to both themselves and the attackers is crazy.
TEKNOPUG said:
Secondly, cheating. This is an easy one to fix and could have been done pre-VAR. Post match reviews of any contentious issues. Retrospective red cards for any players deemed to have simulated either a dive or injury. Players will then know that there is a very high chance that they will be caught and suspended for 3 games. Double it to 6 for another offence in the same season. And so on. The impetus then also falls on the manager to instill discipline, as having a lot of players suspended is going to have a big impact on their career. It also has a second benefit of making the official's job easier, as players are less inclined to simulate and officials are more likely to make the right call, knowing that less players are attempting to con them. All this leads to less requirement for VAR intervention.
.
I agree about a manager's responsibility........ call the player over for a little word in his shell like........ then whisper "Don't worry about the ref........attempt to cheat like that again son and I'll be taking you off myself for embarrassing me and for bringing the club into disrepute"........would that work?.
LimmerickLad said:
TEKNOPUG said:
Secondly, cheating. This is an easy one to fix and could have been done pre-VAR. Post match reviews of any contentious issues. Retrospective red cards for any players deemed to have simulated either a dive or injury. Players will then know that there is a very high chance that they will be caught and suspended for 3 games. Double it to 6 for another offence in the same season. And so on. The impetus then also falls on the manager to instill discipline, as having a lot of players suspended is going to have a big impact on their career. It also has a second benefit of making the official's job easier, as players are less inclined to simulate and officials are more likely to make the right call, knowing that less players are attempting to con them. All this leads to less requirement for VAR intervention.
.
I agree about a manager's responsibility........ call the player over for a little word in his shell like........ then whisper "Don't worry about the ref........attempt to cheat like that again son and I'll be taking you off myself for embarrassing me and for bringing the club into disrepute"........would that work?.
Not a fan of VAR in the first place, personally I’d get rid. But as it’s here, at least it could be used far better than it is. It should be a tool for the referee to use as and when needed to help on a decision he/ she is not sure of. The way it’s used and implemented is sometimes ridiculous, for example the other night a penalty decision given on field was reviewed to reveal that the defender did in fact play the ball and not the attacker. The ball went out for what should have then been a corner, but the ball was dropped for the goalkeeper to pick up. If it’s there to give correct decisions, then why on earth can they not give it when the evidence is there for all to see. This has happened on many other occasions and so makes the idea of VAR getting decisions right a farce.
CivicDuties said:
That would depend entirely on comparing that 14% gain with its associated costs. I tend to think that the costs, particularly the impact on the live, lived experience of watching the game in a stadium, outweigh that gain. I'm a regular at a Premier League club and a non-League club, and if I'm honest I get far more fun out of a match at my favourite non-league club these days.
This. And out of interest. who is deciding whether a decision was right or not? Non subjective stuff like offsides have I'm sure improve considerably, but handballs, fouls, red cards, penalties etc. are still very much subjective.Do those numbers break down into those different decision types I wonder?
TwigtheWonderkid said:
48k said:
it's in everyones interest to try and get the most correct decisions possible.
Why? If you go back to page 1 of this thread, I pointed out then, that this was the big lie VAR was sold on. It's in everyone's best interests that football engenders in the fans the kind of emotion that no other sport can. That's why football is the world's most popular sport. Part of that is wrong decisions.
If there a better feeling in football than a terrible decision going in your favour, especially away from home. The joy of scoring a goal that was a mile offside, or whatever. Getting a pen that you know never was. Or not conceding a pen that was stonewall. The fury of the home fans. Just brilliant. Far better than a correct decision.
Is there a worse feeling than being on the wrong end of the above scenario.
This is what I want from football. If you want binary justice, take up chess, and leave the game I've loved for 55 years the f
k alone. That's not the same as saying they should strive to get as many decisions correct as possible. VAR has clearly made an improvement which is why Wolves are not going to get 13 other clubs to support it being scrapped. The implementation of VAR in the Premier League is far from perfect (eg. takes too long, poor fan experience in the stadium etc) which is something they need to improve, not scrap the whole thing.
Frimley111R said:
Ideally all decisions should be correct,
Absolute bks. Given the joy of getting terrible decisions go for you and the despair of them going against you, why would you want that taken out of the game. Do you actually watch football, or support a team? There's nothing wrong with chess, but it would be so much better if you could come away from watching a tournament saying "I can't believe the Russian moved his rook diagonally and the idiot ref didn't even spot it. We wuz robbed".
Randy Winkman said:
Though I do take the point that losing a cup final on a dodgy penalty never really balances out.
If you go back thru their cup run, it's entirely possible they never would have been in the final if a dodgy decision hadn't gone their way in an earlier round. So yes, it mostly balances out. Gassing Station | Football | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff