Blanket 20mph limit across Wales from 2023

[Evanivitch]

camel_landy said:

They voted to gather the evidence for evaluation... Fact finding... It sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Based on information from the pilot, they can then make an INFORMED decision regarding rolling out nationally.

So where's the evidence the Welsh Tories voted to roll this out NATIONALLY?

M

It's clearly stated as a move to a default limit in restricted roads. That has not changed. The only thing that has changed is the Torys now claiming they want it outside targeted facilities. What part of that wasn't clear before?

Specifically, what part of the report influenced their u-turn?

[turbobloke]

Evanivitch said:

camel_landy said:

They voted to gather the evidence for evaluation... Fact finding... It sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Based on information from the pilot, they can then make an INFORMED decision regarding rolling out nationally.

So where's the evidence the Welsh Tories voted to roll this out NATIONALLY?

M

It's clearly stated as a move to a default limit in restricted roads. That has not changed. The only thing that has changed is the Torys now claiming they want it outside targeted facilities. What part of that wasn't clear before?

Specifically, what part of the report influenced their u-turn?

Ask them?

[Evanivitch]

turbobloke said:

Ask them?

I have. They declined to comment. At the time, however...

"Speaking at the debate in 2020 the current Welsh Conservative shadow minister for cliamte change, Janet Finch-Saunders, said: "It's a common sense and it's a safe move. A person is seven times less likely to die if hit at 20mph than 30mph or 10 times if they're over the age of 60. A study aimed to evaluate the impact of the rollout of 20mph speed limits across the city of Bristol found that there had been a reduction in the number of fatal, serious, and slight injuries from road traffic collisions equating to estimated cost savings of over £15m per year and that walking and cycling across the city had increased.

"In fact 20mph is being pursued and encouraged in other parts of the United Kingdom and abroad. The de facto standard for safer and people-friendly streets is now 20mph with higher limits only where they can be justified."

[turbobloke]

Evanivitch said:

turbobloke said:

Ask them?

I have. They declined to comment. At the time, however...

"Speaking at the debate in 2020 the current Welsh Conservative shadow minister for cliamte change, Janet Finch-Saunders, said: "It's a common sense and it's a safe move. A person is seven times less likely to die if hit at 20mph than 30mph or 10 times if they're over the age of 60. A study aimed to evaluate the impact of the rollout of 20mph speed limits across the city of Bristol found that there had been a reduction in the number of fatal, serious, and slight injuries from road traffic collisions equating to estimated cost savings of over £15m per year and that walking and cycling across the city had increased.

"In fact 20mph is being pursued and encouraged in other parts of the United Kingdom and abroad. The de facto standard for safer and people-friendly streets is now 20mph with higher limits only where they can be justified."

De facto = assumed by people who think they know best. It's uncommon sense. Road safety expertise isn't something that desccends from the ether into the brains of politicians who think they know best.

Lower limits in other parts of the UK increased safefy according to some measures, when by the same measures, 30mph roads of the same type nearby which retained the old (30) limit saw similarly increased safety during the study period. There was no causality between the new limit and increased safety, as per the report mentioned in my post a few days ago, the one which looked at post-implementation data, not model gigo.

This is no more than "we know best" when the 'we' involved merely think they know best and as usual, don't. Whether it's Labour or another colour tie is of passing interest but they're all politicians and they don't know best.

[camel_landy]

We're disappearing down a rabbit-hole... We're still waiting for Itchy to provide proof the Tories voted to rollout the default 20mph nationally (ie: not just gather data from a pilot).

M

[monkfish1]

camel_landy said:

We're disappearing down a rabbit-hole... We're still waiting for Itchy to provide proof the Tories voted to rollout the default 20mph nationally (ie: not just gather data from a pilot).

M

Dont hold your breath while waiting. Could prove fatal!

[Evanivitch]

camel_landy said:

We're disappearing down a rabbit-hole... We're still waiting for Itchy to provide proof the Tories voted to rollout the default 20mph nationally (ie: not just gather data from a pilot).

M

I never said they voted for the roll out, that was clearly a different vote. You are aware there were multiple votes?

[Evanivitch]

turbobloke said:

De facto = assumed by people who think they know best.

Regardless,that was the stated position of the Tory shadow minister at the time, representing the Welsh Tory position. Camel Lady seems unable to accept the obvious u turn in policy by the populist seeking Welsh Torys. Not sure why. Perhaps their name is Andrew?

turbobloke said:

There was no causality between the new limit and increased safety, as per the report mentioned in my post a few days ago, the one which looked at post-implementation data, not model gigo.
.

There was also no enforcement in the areas in the study, and the recorded speeds show little to no compliance. It's a worthless reference you've hung your entire argument on.

[Stella Tortoise]

camel_landy said:

We're disappearing down a rabbit-hole... We're still waiting for Itchy to provide proof the Tories voted to rollout the default 20mph nationally (ie: not just gather data from a pilot).

M

Was there such a vote?

Edited by Stella Tortoise on Thursday 2nd May 14:38

[ATG]

monkfish1 said:

camel_landy said:

We're disappearing down a rabbit-hole... We're still waiting for Itchy to provide proof the Tories voted to rollout the default 20mph nationally (ie: not just gather data from a pilot).

M

Dont hold your breath while waiting. Could prove fatal!

Speaking as a former Welsh Tory myself (who eventually threw in the towel in despair at the state of the party) I can tell you that being pro 20mph urban limits was an uncontroversial position which is why you'll see quotes from senior politicians in favour of it and photos of them standing next to "20's plenty" posters. Pretending otherwise is revisionist bks.

FWIW I thought the support being offered for the 20's Plenty stuff was 99% opportunistic bks and wasn't reflective of some coherent policy proposal because the Welsh Conservatives didn't have any of those and were always just reacting to stuff and jumping on bandwagons as they trundled past.

[monkfish1]

ATG said:

monkfish1 said:

camel_landy said:

We're disappearing down a rabbit-hole... We're still waiting for Itchy to provide proof the Tories voted to rollout the default 20mph nationally (ie: not just gather data from a pilot).

M

Dont hold your breath while waiting. Could prove fatal!

Speaking as a former Welsh Tory myself (who eventually threw in the towel in despair at the state of the party) I can tell you that being pro 20mph urban limits was an uncontroversial position which is why you'll see quotes from senior politicians in favour of it and photos of them standing next to "20's plenty" posters. Pretending otherwise is revisionist bks.

FWIW I thought the support being offered for the 20's Plenty stuff was 99% opportunistic bks and wasn't reflective of some coherent policy proposal because the Welsh Conservatives didn't have any of those and were always just reacting to stuff and jumping on bandwagons as they trundled past.

Thank you for that. Useful post.

I assume you would agree the current campaign to reverse is also an opportunistic bandwagon?

[ATG]

monkfish1 said:

Thank you for that. Useful post.

I assume you would agree the current campaign to reverse is also an opportunistic bandwagon?

100%

If local authorities aren't making sensible variations for urban roads that should be 30/40/50/60, people should be asking them to get their finger out.

As I've said several times, my experience is that Powys have done a good job of handling variations and it hasn't involved spending much cash. If other local authorities have ballsed this up, I'd be asking them why.

Edited by ATG on Thursday 2nd May 14:59

[Pica-Pica]

monkfish1 said:

ATG said:

monkfish1 said:

camel_landy said:

We're disappearing down a rabbit-hole... We're still waiting for Itchy to provide proof the Tories voted to rollout the default 20mph nationally (ie: not just gather data from a pilot).

M

Dont hold your breath while waiting. Could prove fatal!

Speaking as a former Welsh Tory myself (who eventually threw in the towel in despair at the state of the party) I can tell you that being pro 20mph urban limits was an uncontroversial position which is why you'll see quotes from senior politicians in favour of it and photos of them standing next to "20's plenty" posters. Pretending otherwise is revisionist bks.

FWIW I thought the support being offered for the 20's Plenty stuff was 99% opportunistic bks and wasn't reflective of some coherent policy proposal because the Welsh Conservatives didn't have any of those and were always just reacting to stuff and jumping on bandwagons as they trundled past.

Thank you for that. Useful post.

I assume you would agree the current campaign to reverse is also an opportunistic bandwagon?

Although the 20mph limit has been sensibly applied in Gwynedd, I have always believed the best route would have been for Welsh Govt. to talk to the police forces and say ‘there will be no latitude above 30mph and no speed awareness courses either’. Put the money into policing that for a few months.

[turbobloke]

Pica-Pica said:

monkfish1 said:

ATG said:

monkfish1 said:

camel_landy said:

We're disappearing down a rabbit-hole... We're still waiting for Itchy to provide proof the Tories voted to rollout the default 20mph nationally (ie: not just gather data from a pilot).

M

Dont hold your breath while waiting. Could prove fatal!

Speaking as a former Welsh Tory myself (who eventually threw in the towel in despair at the state of the party) I can tell you that being pro 20mph urban limits was an uncontroversial position which is why you'll see quotes from senior politicians in favour of it and photos of them standing next to "20's plenty" posters. Pretending otherwise is revisionist bks.

FWIW I thought the support being offered for the 20's Plenty stuff was 99% opportunistic bks and wasn't reflective of some coherent policy proposal because the Welsh Conservatives didn't have any of those and were always just reacting to stuff and jumping on bandwagons as they trundled past.

Thank you for that. Useful post.

I assume you would agree the current campaign to reverse is also an opportunistic bandwagon?

Although the 20mph limit has been sensibly applied in Gwynedd, I have always believed the best route would have been for Welsh Govt. to talk to the police forces and say ‘there will be no latitude above 30mph and no speed awareness courses either’. Put the money into policing that for a few months.

Outside school gates has been widely accepted, beyond that, spend 20 money on police generally, who can use discretion to educate not just enforce, and do other things to improve quality of life for the sons and daughters of gentlefolk if they try...on the roads, and elsewhere.

[camel_landy]

ATG said:

Speaking as a former Welsh Tory myself (who eventually threw in the towel in despair at the state of the party) I can tell you that being pro 20mph urban limits was an uncontroversial position which is why you'll see quotes from senior politicians in favour of it and photos of them standing next to "20's plenty" posters. Pretending otherwise is revisionist bks.

FWIW I thought the support being offered for the 20's Plenty stuff was 99% opportunistic bks and wasn't reflective of some coherent policy proposal because the Welsh Conservatives didn't have any of those and were always just reacting to stuff and jumping on bandwagons as they trundled past.

TBF - Both sides are guilty of that... My local MP (Labour) even jumped onto the anti-5G bandwagon.

M

[camel_landy]

Evanivitch said:

camel_landy said:

We're disappearing down a rabbit-hole... We're still waiting for Itchy to provide proof the Tories voted to rollout the default 20mph nationally (ie: not just gather data from a pilot).

M

I never said they voted for the roll out, that was clearly a different vote. You are aware there were multiple votes?

So did the Tories vote to roll out the default 20mph nationally?

(I'm after a binary Yes/No answer)

M

[Evanivitch]

turbobloke said:

Outside school gates has been widely accepted, beyond that, spend 20 money on police generally, who can use discretion to educate not just enforce, and do other things to improve quality of life for the sons and daughters of gentlefolk if they try...on the roads, and elsewhere.

More police costs a lot more than a one-off £33m change to speed limits and signage.

[Evanivitch]

ATG said:

100%

If local authorities aren't making sensible variations for urban roads that should be 30/40/50/60, people should be asking them to get their finger out.

That's exactly how the 20 mph implementation is structured. Exemptions are all in the power of LA highways, there's zero claw back by the Senedd for LA implementation as they're only issue guidance.

[Stella Tortoise]

camel_landy said:

Evanivitch said:

camel_landy said:

We're disappearing down a rabbit-hole... We're still waiting for Itchy to provide proof the Tories voted to rollout the default 20mph nationally (ie: not just gather data from a pilot).

M

I never said they voted for the roll out, that was clearly a different vote. You are aware there were multiple votes?

So did the Tories vote to roll out the default 20mph nationally?

(I'm after a binary Yes/No answer)

M

Did they vote in what? When?

You surely have something like a referendum in mind so why not google it?

Or are you asking for data that you know doesn’t exist?

[ATG]

camel_landy said:

TBF - Both sides are guilty of that... My local MP (Labour) even jumped onto the anti-5G bandwagon.

M

What a plum. That's particularly irresponsible.

If you want to meet your local politicians, organise some community event and then spot the plonkers standing next to some recognisable local landmark or a poster for the event having their photo taken. That's them. Those are your local politicians free loading on your event as a photo op. If you want to spot the Tories, they'll be wearing suits. Plaid tend to look like musicians who've misplaced their folk band. I'm not going to take the piss out of Labour as they're quite tribal and punchy and sensitive about being told Corbyn is like Fidel Castro once you've made it clear that you think that's a really bad thing.