Israel invaded

[911hope]

andymadmak said:

That's an interesting response that, on the face of it has some merit. However I wonder whether it stands up to closer scrutiny? For example, you seem quite certain that Israel could have successfully negotiated to get its hostages back prior to any military engagement- what evidence do you have
to support that? What terms do you think might have been acceptable to Hamas?
My view, based on how Hamas have typically handled hostages in the past is that there would have been zero chance of a timely return.. in fact, given that Hamas fighters were explicitly instructed to take hostages on the 7th it seems rather more likely that Hamas intended for the hostages to become extension of their human shield in the hope that holding them would indeed prevent an all out response from Israel.
In that sense your hypothesis falls down, as does the strategy of Hamas in hoping that the human shield would prevail against Israeli attack - a grave miscalculation.

Israel waited almost 3 weeks before it invaded Gaza after the attack of the 7th - that doesn't seem particularly knee-jerky in my view. And again, we have the mention of proportionality in relation to a war, but as of yet no one has been able to define what they think that represents! (aside from something, something, something, less than what has happened, something, something). If proportionality were truly a thing, at what point should Hamas say " our people have suffered enough, we should offer to return all the hostages immediately (and the bodies of the dead hostages) in exchange
for a ceasefire? The answer is that its never been done because Hamas sees retaining some hostages as some sort of bargaining chip, even though it knows full well that a full ceasefire will not happen until it makes that commitment. Knowing that more will die as a result does not seem to deter Hamas, so what use is proportionality aside from giving western liberals a hook to hank their protest coat on without appearing overtly anti semitic?

Edited by andymadmak on Wednesday 1st May 09:17

Here are some proportions to consider.

Proportion of Gazan people killed which were not Hamas fighters.. at least 70%

Proportion of Gazan people being displayed and starved. At least 98%

Ratio of killed Gazan people to the victims of 7/10 is at least 28

[911hope]

How does Israel's ceasefire offer coexist with promise to assault Rafa?

[andymadmak]

911hope said:

Here are some proportions to consider.

Proportion of Gazan people killed which were not Hamas fighters.. at least 70%

Proportion of Gazan people being displayed and starved. At least 98%

Ratio of killed Gazan people to the victims of 7/10 is at least 28

Question dodged again.

[andymadmak]

911hope said:

How does Israel's ceasefire offer coexist with promise to assault Rafa?

It doesn't and Netanyahu is a dangerous arse imho. He also seems at odds with his Foreign Minister on this point.
Rafah may well hold the last major elements of the Hamas fighting force, but an attack is not the way. It's clear that Netanyahu believes that his desire for a total victory over Hamas is within reach, but I agree with Biden that invading Rafah would be a red line crossed.
Perhaps if the Hamas fighters surrendered or were somehow granted passage to another Arab state so that Israel could be sure they no longer represented a threat? I suppose neither scenario is likely.

[911hope]

andymadmak said:

911hope said:

Here are some proportions to consider.

Proportion of Gazan people killed which were not Hamas fighters.. at least 70%

Proportion of Gazan people being displayed and starved. At least 98%

Ratio of killed Gazan people to the victims of 7/10 is at least 28

Question dodged again.

Inconvenient truths are problematic are they not?

[andymadmak]

911hope said:

andymadmak said:

911hope said:

Here are some proportions to consider.

Proportion of Gazan people killed which were not Hamas fighters.. at least 70%

Proportion of Gazan people being displayed and starved. At least 98%

Ratio of killed Gazan people to the victims of 7/10 is at least 28

Question dodged again.

Inconvenient truths are problematic are they not?

You still haven't answered the question. It's the same every time with you lot! People ask pertinent questions and all we get are slogans, "statistics" and obfuscation back. In contrast I answered your question directly, how about you try that approach and then this whole forum thing will be much more interesting?
I have no idea whether the numbers you cite are truths or otherwise. But I do know that if they are true, it will take an effort from both sides and the world beyond to bring the suffering of the Palestinian people to an end. So why, with defeat staring it in the face, does Hamas not do all it can to save innocent lives by taking the steps that have been laid out so many times over the past 6 months? (return all hostages and surrender) I'm hoping for your genuine opinion on that question but it's probably best if I don't hold my breath

[z4RRSchris]

why would they surrender? its working? they have the upper hand.

world hates israel
protests
UN
ICJ
US calling for 2 state solution
Saudi saying no normalization until 2 state
etc etc etc

Any Zionist response is now "oh, they should surrender to save the people of palestine from being killed by our US supplied bombs and rockets".

[JJJ.]

911hope said:

How does Israel's ceasefire offer coexist with promise to assault Rafa?

Yep, that's the big question and of course it doesn't. The ceasefire offer is great in isolation but that's all.

[Chimune]

andymadmak said:

You still haven't answered the question. It's the same every time with you lot! People ask pertinent questions and all we get are slogans, "statistics" and obfuscation back. In contrast I answered your question directly, how about you try that approach and then this whole forum thing will be much more interesting?
I have no idea whether the numbers you cite are truths or otherwise. But I do know that if they are true, it will take an effort from both sides and the world beyond to bring the suffering of the Palestinian people to an end. So why, with defeat staring it in the face, does Hamas not do all it can to save innocent lives by taking the steps that have been laid out so many times over the past 6 months? (return all hostages and surrender) I'm hoping for your genuine opinion on that question but it's probably best if I don't hold my breath

andymadmak has clearly laid out his thoughts and position.
Please do him the courtesy of answering his question.

[Oliver Hardy]

andymadmak said:

Perhaps if the Hamas fighters surrendered or were somehow granted passage to another Arab state so that Israel could be sure they no longer represented a threat? I suppose neither scenario is likely.

Which country, apart from Scotland although now their FM has gone it might be different, will take Hama fighters?

Egypt has over the years increased its security with Gaza to prevent any crossings.

[JJJ.]

Chimune said:

andymadmak said:

So why, with defeat staring it in the face, does Hamas not do all it can to save innocent lives by taking the steps that have been laid out so many times over the past 6 months? (return all hostages and surrender)

andymadmak has clearly laid out his thoughts and position.
Please do him the courtesy of answering his question.

Both of you are having laugh surely!

[Oliver Hardy]

Once Hamas/Iran has been dealt with, will Israel have to deal with Hezbollah/Lebanon?

They are under attach daily from Hezbollah/Iran from Lebanon.

[andymadmak]

z4RRSchris said:

why would they surrender? its working? they have the upper hand.

world hates israel
protests
UN
ICJ
US calling for 2 state solution
Saudi saying no normalization until 2 state
etc etc etc

OK, so what do you propose? The ending of the conflict and the ending of the suffering of innocents has to be the priority does it not?

As for Hamas winning?:

Israel won't care if the world hates them - it's par for the course in many Israelis minds
Protests on some US campuses and in Oxford Street mean nothing to Netanyahu
The UN is toothless
ICJ can flap its gums all it likes but Israel will ignore it
US and others have been saying "2 state solution" for literally decades. It has come fleetingly close over the years but has always eluded the protagonists. Clinton got closest i think (20 odd years ago) but the Palestinians (Arafat) overplayed their hand and that was the end of that, very sadly.

As I have said all along, I do agree that the solution lies in 2 secure and peaceful states. It's how we get from the now to where we want to be in the future that is the question. As long as Netanyahu speaks for Israel and Hamas speaks for Palestinians we are going nowhere. Suffering will continue.
Its a terrible cycle, because as long as Hamas speaks for Palestinians then Israel's response will be from Netanyahu and his like.
Someone else has to speak, on both sides. People committed to peace, a viable 2 state solution and the rebuilding of trust between peoples.

z4RRSchris said:

Any Zionist response is now "oh, they should surrender to save the people of palestine from being killed by our US supplied bombs and rockets".

Well, since I was labelled as a zionist earlier this week for even suggesting 2 states (ie, that Israel AND Palestine should exist) I would say that my response above likely disappoints you. But, I will also say that absent any chance of victory do you maintain that Hamas should carry on fighting and hiding behind Palestinian civilians until the last Palestinian child is dead? Or should it be looking to find ways to end the conflict quickly?
Ending requires the return of hostages and some kind of mechanism that takes the terrorist players off the board in a way that Israel no longer sees them as a current or potential future threat. I'd say that if those two things happened THEN the pressure from all sides on Israel to work proactively to a 2 state solution would be irresistible.
What do you think? Or are you another one that never answers a specific question?

[z4RRSchris]

1. Netanyahu has to go.
2. There should be a ceasefire. withdrawl of isreali troops
3. The hostages should be released, all of them, immediately. including the thousands locked up in israel
4. There should be a 2 state solution based on 67
5. Hamas should not speak for the Palestinians (just as Netanyahu should not be speaking for Israel)
6. An international force should be deployed to police the peace,
7. Action should be taken to immediately stop the aggressive settler actions in the West Bank
8. Illegal Settlements in the WB should be removed and the settlers told to return to Israel
9. Crimes by settlers against Palestinians should be investigated and punished appropriately
10 Gaza should be rebuilt through a massive international effort, an effort that must include the Israelis so as to begin the bridge building process between the peoples that is necessary for lasting peace
11. A long term plan should be put in place that would ultimately give Palestinians control over their own borders - it won't happen anytime soon but it needs to be seen to be possible.
12. Crimes by Israeli soldiers should be investigated properly, and where guilt is proven an appropriate punishment should be handed down.
13. Hamas should remain as a proscribed terrorist organisation until it removes all references, hints or leanings towards the destruction of Israel and the eradication of all Jews.
14. Hamas terrorists that are identified as having committed crimes should face courts for their actions. If found guilty and appropriate punishment should be handed down.
15. There can be no "right of return" discussions because in reality it would never be reciprocal.

[Oliver Hardy]

z4RRSchris said:

1. Netanyahu has to go.
2. There should be a ceasefire. withdrawl of isreali troops
3. The hostages should be released, all of them, immediately. including the thousands locked up in israel
4. There should be a 2 state solution based on 67
5. Hamas should not speak for the Palestinians (just as Netanyahu should not be speaking for Israel)
6. An international force should be deployed to police the peace,
7. Action should be taken to immediately stop the aggressive settler actions in the West Bank
8. Illegal Settlements in the WB should be removed and the settlers told to return to Israel
9. Crimes by settlers against Palestinians should be investigated and punished appropriately
10 Gaza should be rebuilt through a massive international effort, an effort that must include the Israelis so as to begin the bridge building process between the peoples that is necessary for lasting peace
11. A long term plan should be put in place that would ultimately give Palestinians control over their own borders - it won't happen anytime soon but it needs to be seen to be possible.
12. Crimes by Israeli soldiers should be investigated properly, and where guilt is proven an appropriate punishment should be handed down.
13. Hamas should remain as a proscribed terrorist organisation until it removes all references, hints or leanings towards the destruction of Israel and the eradication of all Jews.
14. Hamas terrorists that are identified as having committed crimes should face courts for their actions. If found guilty and appropriate punishment should be handed down.
15. There can be no "right of return" discussions because in reality it would never be reciprocal.

There needs to be a separate solution for Jerusalem which is important to three different faiths, although told Christian sites are poorly maintained currently.

[andymadmak]

z4RRSchris said:

1. Netanyahu has to go.
2. There should be a ceasefire. withdrawl of isreali troops
3. The hostages should be released, all of them, immediately. including the thousands locked up in israel
4. There should be a 2 state solution based on 67
5. Hamas should not speak for the Palestinians (just as Netanyahu should not be speaking for Israel)
6. An international force should be deployed to police the peace,
7. Action should be taken to immediately stop the aggressive settler actions in the West Bank
8. Illegal Settlements in the WB should be removed and the settlers told to return to Israel
9. Crimes by settlers against Palestinians should be investigated and punished appropriately
10 Gaza should be rebuilt through a massive international effort, an effort that must include the Israelis so as to begin the bridge building process between the peoples that is necessary for lasting peace
11. A long term plan should be put in place that would ultimately give Palestinians control over their own borders - it won't happen anytime soon but it needs to be seen to be possible.
12. Crimes by Israeli soldiers should be investigated properly, and where guilt is proven an appropriate punishment should be handed down.
13. Hamas should remain as a proscribed terrorist organisation until it removes all references, hints or leanings towards the destruction of Israel and the eradication of all Jews.
14. Hamas terrorists that are identified as having committed crimes should face courts for their actions. If found guilty and appropriate punishment should be handed down.
15. There can be no "right of return" discussions because in reality it would never be reciprocal.

Excellent! I see that you agree with me completely (albeit with some additions - for example are there any hostages in Israel? ) - this does make you a Zionist though. Apparently

Edited by andymadmak on Wednesday 1st May 16:52

[Slowboathome]

z4RRSchris said:

why would they surrender? its working? they have the upper hand.

Well in that case, it sounds like they're happy to keep going without a ceasefire.

Win/win

[z4RRSchris]

andymadmak said:

Excellent! I see that you agree with me completely (albeit with some additions - for example are there any hostages in Israel? ) - this does make you a Zionist though. Apparently

Edited by andymadmak on Wednesday 1st May 16:52

israel has 7000 detainees, including 2000 held without charge, or trial, or even any indication why they are being held. no due process etc.

i don’t agree with anything you stand for.

[andymadmak]

z4RRSchris said:

andymadmak said:

Excellent! I see that you agree with me completely (albeit with some additions - for example are there any hostages in Israel? ) - this does make you a Zionist though. Apparently

Edited by andymadmak on Wednesday 1st May 16:52

israel has 7000 detainees, including 2000 held without charge, or trial, or even any indication why they are being held. no due process etc.

i don’t agree with anything you stand for.

But you do, as our respective posts show, Your problem though is that that makes you a zionist according to some on here. There is precious little in reality that separates our views on what the future should look like.

[z4RRSchris]

would you give palestine their land back? 67?

kick out all the settlers?

let palestine control their own border? security? airport? seaport?