Burglary at remote Peak District farm, murder arrest

[bitchstewie]

Fastpedeller said:

Can shooting them be self-defence if you believe the burglars have weapons and are approaching?

No idea.

There isn't ever going to be a written down list of when you categorically can and can't shoot people there will always be tests applied about whether it was reasonable and justifiable etc.

I think that's the point isn't it?

[BikeBikeBIke]

gotoPzero said:

Fastpedeller said:

bhstewie said:

I thought it was generally accepted that stopping burglars with reasonable force is fine whilst murdering them regardless of the circumstances isn't.

Can shooting them be self-defence if you believe the burglars have weapons and are approaching?

Case by case basis basically.

Yeah. Jury decide if it's "reasonable force."

I think as a burglary victim you'd *really* have to be taking the piss to get convicted.

[m3jappa]

All the people saying we shouldn't have guns etc. i wonder if those people have ever properly met or come across these type of utter scum.

They do no give a fk. They are in charge, nothing you can say or do matters to them, they do not care about police, they do not care about prison.

They do what they want, when they want and do not care for anyone else.

If you was to try and attack them then your in trouble, you wont win, not unless your some double hard bd.

Im sorry but i think guns should be legal, i think there should be very strict laws on them but if you have been targeted or live in fear of being targeted and someone is fking dumb enough to be snooping round your property in the middle of the night? More fool them.

These people ruin normal hard working peoples live, with little recourse.

[Derek Smith]

m3jappa said:

All the people saying we shouldn't have guns etc. i wonder if those people have ever properly met or come across these type of utter scum.

They do no give a fk. They are in charge, nothing you can say or do matters to them, they do not care about police, they do not care about prison.

They do what they want, when they want and do not care for anyone else.

If you was to try and attack them then your in trouble, you wont win, not unless your some double hard bd.

Im sorry but i think guns should be legal, i think there should be very strict laws on them but if you have been targeted or live in fear of being targeted and someone is fking dumb enough to be snooping round your property in the middle of the night? More fool them.

These people ruin normal hard working peoples live, with little recourse.

Guns are legal.

[Caddyshack]

Derek Smith said:

m3jappa said:

All the people saying we shouldn't have guns etc. i wonder if those people have ever properly met or come across these type of utter scum.

They do no give a fk. They are in charge, nothing you can say or do matters to them, they do not care about police, they do not care about prison.

They do what they want, when they want and do not care for anyone else.

If you was to try and attack them then your in trouble, you wont win, not unless your some double hard bd.

Im sorry but i think guns should be legal, i think there should be very strict laws on them but if you have been targeted or live in fear of being targeted and someone is fking dumb enough to be snooping round your property in the middle of the night? More fool them.

These people ruin normal hard working peoples live, with little recourse.

Guns are legal.

I get your point but it is very hard to legally own a normal 9mm pistol in the UK, that would be a great home defense weapon and I am pretty sure the poster meant home defense weapons.

[BikeBikeBIke]

Caddyshack said:

I get your point but it is very hard to legally own a normal 9mm pistol in the UK, that would be a great home defense weapon and I am pretty sure the poster meant home defense weapons.

Wouldn't burglars all be carrying 9mm pistols, then?

Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Thursday 2nd May 21:34

[Biggy Stardust]

MB140 said:

This is not entirely correct. I have carried firearms for a living in the uk.

So have I; and abroad.

MB140 said:

You must give a warning unless to do so would increase the risk to life or further endanger life. Not just feel it.

Somehow I doubt that the farmer was subject to military RoE.

MB140 said:

There has to be an actual risk not a felt risk.

Bullst. There are plenty of examples eg the police where they have been cleared due to "honestly held belief" that someone had a gun, even when they didn't.

MB140 said:

If a warning has been given then the rule of minimum appropriate force to remove the risk to life applies.

Again bullst- I refer you to Lord Denning's comments on the subject whereby the householder is allowed leeway.

MB140 said:

What I mean by that for example is you can’t point your gun at him , he then starts to back away (the threat to life is diminishing) and then shoot him and say you felt there was a risk to life.

Alternative, you point you gun at him and he decides to charge at you. Have at it, but it must still be minimum force you can’t empty a round at him. He stops and you finish him off. After the first shot you were good, the risk has now diminished, shoot him again and you’re in a world of trouble.

That might be the rules in the army- an outnumbered dude on his on property does & should have a great deal more freedom of action than a squaddie on the streets.

[Bill]

m3jappa said:

All the people saying we shouldn't have guns etc. i wonder if those people have ever properly met or come across these type of utter scum.

They do no give a fk. They are in charge, nothing you can say or do matters to them, they do not care about police, they do not care about prison.

They do what they want, when they want and do not care for anyone else.

If you was to try and attack them then your in trouble, you wont win, not unless your some double hard bd.

Im sorry but i think guns should be legal, i think there should be very strict laws on them but if you have been targeted or live in fear of being targeted and someone is fking dumb enough to be snooping round your property in the middle of the night? More fool them.

These people ruin normal hard working peoples live, with little recourse.

Do you think these double hard nutter bds will be better or worse armed than you...

[Somewhatfoolish]

Caddyshack said:

Derek Smith said:

m3jappa said:

All the people saying we shouldn't have guns etc. i wonder if those people have ever properly met or come across these type of utter scum.

They do no give a fk. They are in charge, nothing you can say or do matters to them, they do not care about police, they do not care about prison.

They do what they want, when they want and do not care for anyone else.

If you was to try and attack them then your in trouble, you wont win, not unless your some double hard bd.

Im sorry but i think guns should be legal, i think there should be very strict laws on them but if you have been targeted or live in fear of being targeted and someone is fking dumb enough to be snooping round your property in the middle of the night? More fool them.

These people ruin normal hard working peoples live, with little recourse.

Guns are legal.

I get your point but it is very hard to legally own a normal 9mm pistol in the UK, that would be a great home defense weapon and I am pretty sure the poster meant home defense weapons.

Technically it's pretty easy to legally own a 9mm pistol in the UK for self defence.

Now Great Britain on the other hand...

[ATG]

Caddyshack said:

I get your point but it is very hard to legally own a normal 9mm pistol in the UK, that would be a great home defense weapon and I am pretty sure the poster meant home defense weapons.

Defending yourself in your home with a firearm that is stored responsibly is a pipe dream. Try to think through the scenarios where it would be genuinely useful.

There are so many better ways to dissuade would-be burglars, e.g. security lights, an ear-splittingly loud burglar alarm, no cover when approaching doors and windows, loud crunchy gravel to walk across. A proper lock on your bedroom doors is going to keep you safer than a 9mm under your pillow, and you can't accidentally shoot yourself in the foot or your child in the head with a door.

[Somewhatfoolish]

ATG said:

Caddyshack said:

I get your point but it is very hard to legally own a normal 9mm pistol in the UK, that would be a great home defense weapon and I am pretty sure the poster meant home defense weapons.

Defending yourself in your home with a firearm that is stored responsibly is a pipe dream. Try to think through the scenarios where it would be genuinely useful.

There are so many better ways to dissuade would-be burglars, e.g. security lights, an ear-splittingly loud burglar alarm, no cover when approaching doors and windows, loud crunchy gravel to walk across. A proper lock on your bedroom doors is going to keep you safer than a 9mm under your pillow, and you can't accidentally shoot yourself in the foot or your child in the head with a door.

I also do wonder how many people with such fantasies actually shoot. I'm not very familiar with the "spend a few grand to shoot some grouse" type shooting culture in the UK but I am familiar with the "target shooting at bisley" type culture and anyone who turned up with yank-style 2nd amendment defence fantasies simply wouldn't be allowed to join a shooting club or handle a firearm by any of their members.

[hairykrishna]

Caddyshack said:

I get your point but it is very hard to legally own a normal 9mm pistol in the UK, that would be a great home defense weapon and I am pretty sure the poster meant home defense weapons.

Not as good a home defence weapon as a shotgun.

I don't think anyone on this thread has argued against guns anyway to be honest. Nor against the idea of shooting people who are out to do you physical harm. It's just the idea that people should be able to blast away with impunity the moment anyone sets foot on their property that seems to be the sticking point.

[ATG]

and31 said:

ChocolateFrog said:

ATG said:

fttm said:

Hopefully the home owner isn't charged . I'm with the majority of decent people on this one , feral low life scum break into your property then their rights are left at the door , no ifs no buts .

That isn't the view of a decent person who has thought their position through.

Sounds like someone hasn't been burgled while they've been at home.

I'd only hope it takes a while and it's not painless.

Exactly right !

FWIW I do have some vaguely related experience of what it's like to be on a farm when uninvited armed guests turn up. Specifically, about 20 blokes walked into the living room, a couple of them with axes over their shoulders, when I was spending a few days on my uncle's farm.

As it happened we would normally have had access to a variety of 9mm have guns, two AR15 rifles, and numerous hunting rifles, but because we knew there was likely to be trouble, we'd moved all those firearms off the farm the day before into secure storage at another property. The very last thing we wanted was to have an armed standoff that might descend into a battle. Sadly that's exactly what happened on a neighbouring farm the same day, and the landowner was shot dead.

[number2]

ATG said:

and31 said:

ChocolateFrog said:

ATG said:

fttm said:

Hopefully the home owner isn't charged . I'm with the majority of decent people on this one , feral low life scum break into your property then their rights are left at the door , no ifs no buts .

That isn't the view of a decent person who has thought their position through.

Sounds like someone hasn't been burgled while they've been at home.

I'd only hope it takes a while and it's not painless.

Exactly right !

FWIW I do have some vaguely related experience of what it's like to be on a farm when uninvited armed guests turn up. Specifically, about 20 blokes walked into the living room, a couple of them with axes over their shoulders, when I was spending a few days on my uncle's farm.

As it happened we would normally have had access to a variety of 9mm have guns, two AR15 rifles, and numerous hunting rifles, but because we knew there was likely to be trouble, we'd moved all those firearms off the farm the day before into secure storage at another property. The very last thing we wanted was to have an armed standoff that might descend into a battle. Sadly that's exactly what happened on a neighbouring farm the same day, and the landowner was shot dead.

That sounds an interesting story - where, what and why?!

Don't worry about derailing a thread, there's only so many times one can read the same posts .

[ATG]

Zimbabwe farm invasions back in 2000. Obviously pretty different from scrotes breaking into farms in the UK, but some similarities nonetheless.

[m3jappa]

Bill said:

Do you think these double hard nutter bds will be better or worse armed than you...

Maybe, maybe not. As i think most thieves know, if they start killing people is goes from burglary to murder, a charge which sees them put away for significant time.

You could argue that if most thieves thought there was a chance they could be shot dead with no recourse maybe they would think twice?

Again, maybe not.

For me personally if i owned a gun it would make me 'feel' that much safer.

The best solution would be if everyone was ok and treated other people with some respect but we are way past that sadly.

[MB140]

gotoPzero said:

All great, but you are a trained individual carrying as a professional, not a farmer.

Farmer John (probably) does not know any of this. (edit to add he does not need to act in the same way as police or military either)

And hopefully assuming all was reasonable, that's the way the CPS will view it.

Obviously if he has done wrong, then let the courts decide.

Edited by gotoPzero on Thursday 2nd May 19:32

I’m not sure it’s going to work like that, being a professional or not is irrelevant, our rules are derived from uk law. Unfortunately the law doesn’t care about being a professional or not. The law is the law I’m afraid in this matter. But I suppose the law is open to interpretations.

Just my opinion.

Now if I was a juror there is no way in hell I would find him guilty. (Assuming he has done this in self defence and not laid in wait for them to come back and steal the cars knowing they have the keys from the previous burglary.

[Randy Winkman]

BikeBikeBIke said:

Caddyshack said:

I get your point but it is very hard to legally own a normal 9mm pistol in the UK, that would be a great home defense weapon and I am pretty sure the poster meant home defense weapons.

Wouldn't burglars all be carrying 9mm pistpls,then?

Good point.

[glazbagun]

ninepoint2 said:

If it was a "burglary that went wrong" then they deserve what they got, play stupid games win stupid prizes springs to mind, the law is flawed if this farmer is done for murder IMHO if his gun is legally held (unlike Tony Martin) should be given an award for saving tax payers a fortune to keep these scrotes in prison, again in IMHO

And survivors sued for the cleaning bill.

Assuming it's confirmed as our PH fantasy crime of course.

[Lefty]

The problem with trying to defend your property with a firearm is that it’s supposed to be locked away in your gun cabinet. If somebody breaks in and you have the presence of mind (and time) to get your keys, unlock the safe, load the gun and then go and find the scrote you have, effectively, gone through some premeditated use of the weapon surely?