Burglary at remote Peak District farm, murder arrest

[Earthdweller]

bhstewie said:

Fastpedeller said:

Can shooting them be self-defence if you believe the burglars have weapons and are approaching?

No idea.

There isn't ever going to be a written down list of when you categorically can and can't shoot people there will always be tests applied about whether it was reasonable and justifiable etc.

I think that's the point isn't it?

Absolutely the Police/CPS will look at the threat and the response to it and then decide if the response was proportionate, necessary and appropriate, in effect whether it was lawful

There’s no hard and fast answer to the question

If they feel the response was lawful then there likely will be no charge, if there is doubt or they believe the evidential threshold for murder/manslaughter has been passed then it will be up to a jury to decide

They may also feel that it would be in the public interest for a court to decide

So proportionality, legality, evidential test and public interest will guide them

[Jasey_]

Just hope the 2nd scumbag wasn't injured while trying to escape but I fear he maybe was.

[popeyewhite]

ATG said:

There are so many better ways to dissuade would-be burglars,

There are certain kinds of burglar who are not the type that will be easily dissuaded. They will know they could do serious time if they are caught and will do almost anything to get whatever they are after. Now I don't now what type of burglars this lot were, but I really hope you don't ever meet the not easily dissuaded, because you'll get a very rude awakening that I'm not sure you'll get over very quickly or easily.

[Alickadoo]

pokethepope said:

Alickadoo said:

Farmer charged

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-6...

Nowhere on that link does it say he has been charged

Held.

Put it down to an excess of enthusiasm.

[TTwiggy]

popeyewhite said:

ATG said:

There are so many better ways to dissuade would-be burglars,

There are certain kinds of burglar who are not the type that will be easily dissuaded. They will know they could do serious time if they are caught and will do almost anything to get whatever they are after. Now I don't now what type of burglars this lot were, but I really hope you don't ever meet the not easily dissuaded, because you'll get a very rude awakening that I'm not sure you'll get over very quickly or easily.

I’m guessing you missed the tale of axe-wielding farm raiders earlier in the thread?

[popeyewhite]

TTwiggy said:

popeyewhite said:

ATG said:

There are so many better ways to dissuade would-be burglars,

There are certain kinds of burglar who are not the type that will be easily dissuaded. They will know they could do serious time if they are caught and will do almost anything to get whatever they are after. Now I don't now what type of burglars this lot were, but I really hope you don't ever meet the not easily dissuaded, because you'll get a very rude awakening that I'm not sure you'll get over very quickly or easily.

I’m guessing you missed the tale of axe-wielding farm raiders earlier in the thread?

I did.

Would a better alarm/fake camera have dissuaded them?

[Caddyshack]

hairykrishna said:

Caddyshack said:

I get your point but it is very hard to legally own a normal 9mm pistol in the UK, that would be a great home defense weapon and I am pretty sure the poster meant home defense weapons.

Not as good a home defence weapon as a shotgun.

I don't think anyone on this thread has argued against guns anyway to be honest. Nor against the idea of shooting people who are out to do you physical harm. It's just the idea that people should be able to blast away with impunity the moment anyone sets foot on their property that seems to be the sticking point.

I’d take a 9mm every time in a house. A shotgun is great as it’s point and squirt but you need to be able to move about easily. Just playing Airsoft with a rifle in a building makes you realise how hard it is, most shotguns only hold 2 cartridges as well.

9mm takes a lot of training and being kept ready to use to be effective. The poster that replied the baddies would have them too is correct, of course.


Some of the replies to me suggest that I hadn’t thought it through, I wasn’t suggesting that we should own a 9mm, I was suggesting that it was hard to own one.

I used to have a 9mm, 357, .38 and .22 rim all legally owned in the house but with them locked in a safe and the ammo in another they would not have been much use. We had shotguns too and one would hold 5 cartridges.

[InitialDave]

Caddyshack said:

I used to have a 9mm, 357, .38 and .22 rim all legally owned in the house but with them locked in a safe and the ammo in another they would not have been much use. We had shotguns too and one would hold 5 cartridges.

Well, if you had stuff subject to a firearms cert already, I'd assume it would be more logical to have a shotgun where the capacity exceeds the limitation if a shotgun cert, as you're having the FAC anyway?

My thinking would be most people who had shotguns only would stick with the shotgun cert remit and go for a double barrel or a pump action blocked/crimped to the total capacity limit (is it 3?) as it's less hassle, yes?

[Drumroll]

Caddyshack said:

I’d take a 9mm every time in a house. A shotgun is great as it’s point and squirt but you need to be able to move about easily. Just playing Airsoft with a rifle in a building makes you realise how hard it is, most shotguns only hold 2 cartridges as well.

9mm takes a lot of training and being kept ready to use to be effective. The poster that replied the baddies would have them too is correct, of course.


Some of the replies to me suggest that I hadn’t thought it through, I wasn’t suggesting that we should own a 9mm, I was suggesting that it was hard to own one.

I used to have a 9mm, 357, .38 and .22 rim all legally owned in the house but with them locked in a safe and the ammo in another they would not have been much use. We had shotguns too and one would hold 5 cartridges.

Well when you come into the real world, you will realise virtually nobody can hold a 9mm legally at home in this country now and that is a good job.

[TheJimi]

Drumroll said:

Caddyshack said:

I’d take a 9mm every time in a house. A shotgun is great as it’s point and squirt but you need to be able to move about easily. Just playing Airsoft with a rifle in a building makes you realise how hard it is, most shotguns only hold 2 cartridges as well.

9mm takes a lot of training and being kept ready to use to be effective. The poster that replied the baddies would have them too is correct, of course.


Some of the replies to me suggest that I hadn’t thought it through, I wasn’t suggesting that we should own a 9mm, I was suggesting that it was hard to own one.

I used to have a 9mm, 357, .38 and .22 rim all legally owned in the house but with them locked in a safe and the ammo in another they would not have been much use. We had shotguns too and one would hold 5 cartridges.

Well when you come into the real world, you will realise virtually nobody can hold a 9mm legally at home in this country now and that is a good job.

Where does he say anything to the contrary?

[Drumroll]

TheJimi said:

Where does he say anything to the contrary?

"I’d take a 9mm every time in a house."

The whole post came across as a bit "walty" to me.

Edited by Drumroll on Friday 3rd May 10:46

Edited by Drumroll on Friday 3rd May 10:53

[TheJimi]

Drumroll said:

TheJimi said:

Where does he say anything to the contrary?

I’d take a 9mm every time in a house.

The whole post came across as a bit "walty" to me.

Edited by Drumroll on Friday 3rd May 10:46

So he's said nothing that warranted your response.

Saying he'd prefer a 9mm over a shotgun in a house isn't walty, imo - he's just stating a preference given a hypothetical scenario and backs up his preference with the reasoning behind it.

[jshell]

Randy Winkman said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

Caddyshack said:

I get your point but it is very hard to legally own a normal 9mm pistol in the UK, that would be a great home defense weapon and I am pretty sure the poster meant home defense weapons.

Wouldn't burglars all be carrying 9mm pistpls,then?

Good point.

It's not. The majority of burglars wouldn't go armed as they would know that level of violent pre-meditation would carry a far, far harsher sentence.

[hairykrishna]

Caddyshack said:

I’d take a 9mm every time in a house. A shotgun is great as it’s point and squirt but you need to be able to move about easily. Just playing Airsoft with a rifle in a building makes you realise how hard it is, most shotguns only hold 2 cartridges as well.

9mm takes a lot of training and being kept ready to use to be effective. The poster that replied the baddies would have them too is correct, of course.


Some of the replies to me suggest that I hadn’t thought it through, I wasn’t suggesting that we should own a 9mm, I was suggesting that it was hard to own one.

I used to have a 9mm, 357, .38 and .22 rim all legally owned in the house but with them locked in a safe and the ammo in another they would not have been much use. We had shotguns too and one would hold 5 cartridges.

:shrug: I'm just going off what various USA bods I've seen on the internet say. My mate's got a Saiga 12 gauge and a bunch of slugs on his certificate. I reckon that'd work well.

The truth is if you store your gun properly it's going to take a while to get it out and ready for use. The stats from the US also suggest that you're way more likely to shoot someone from your family than a wrong un' breaking in. I reckon I'll stick with my plan letting them nick whatever they want and having insurance. My noisy, but soppy, dog is probably enough to scare off the opportunists too.

Edited by hairykrishna on Friday 3rd May 11:30

[oddman]

Shotguns are marketed as home defence weapons in the US

Believe it or not, on 'safety grounds' as the load is less likely to go straight through walls than a bullet and kill another member fo your family

They tend to be pump action have pistol grip stocks and barrels. Like this A gun like that would be illegal in UK as it's effectively a sawn off

If you've ever had the business end of a shotgun pointed at you (I have when some numpty turned round at a clay shoot) it is pretty terrifying. More so, I imagine, than someone waving a pistol about.

Point's been made several times that, in the event of a burglary, your ability to locate your keys, open the cabinet find ammo and load it would be difficult given the security insisted on by firearms officer.

[SlimJim16v]

Drumroll said:

Well when you come into the real world, you will realise virtually nobody can hold a 9mm legally at home in this country now and that is a good job.

[Caddyshack]

Drumroll said:

Caddyshack said:

I’d take a 9mm every time in a house. A shotgun is great as it’s point and squirt but you need to be able to move about easily. Just playing Airsoft with a rifle in a building makes you realise how hard it is, most shotguns only hold 2 cartridges as well.

9mm takes a lot of training and being kept ready to use to be effective. The poster that replied the baddies would have them too is correct, of course.


Some of the replies to me suggest that I hadn’t thought it through, I wasn’t suggesting that we should own a 9mm, I was suggesting that it was hard to own one.

I used to have a 9mm, 357, .38 and .22 rim all legally owned in the house but with them locked in a safe and the ammo in another they would not have been much use. We had shotguns too and one would hold 5 cartridges.

Well when you come into the real world, you will realise virtually nobody can hold a 9mm legally at home in this country now and that is a good job.

standard "you walt" dig but what isn't real world based on my original response being that you cannot easily legally hold a 9mm? I knew mentioning airsoft would trigger some but based on an imitation so close to real you need a defense to buy one it is a real world comparison of wielding a long rifle or shotgun in a confined space. I used to compete in practical pistol events (live 9mm) which was running about hitting targets from behind cover in timed conditions in England)



In actual fact, you can reasonably simply own a legal 9mm semi auto in England, you have to be a member of a target shooting club and the 9mm must have a dummy silencer plus a weight bar from the grip base, it then falls under rifle laws and can be used and held legally.

Farmers, and it was a farmer in the OP, can also legally own a large bore pistol, often revolvers in 357 magnum locked to 2 rounds capacity for animal despatch.

I too feel it is good that it has been getting harder and harder to own a firearm in England, as much as I would love to get back in to competitive shooting.

My daughter won the UK2022 Tetrathlon champs and was 2nd in 23, she is off to Aus in 26 (that's run, swim, ride and shoot)

[Fermit]

gotoPzero said:

Fastpedeller said:

bhstewie said:

I thought it was generally accepted that stopping burglars with reasonable force is fine whilst murdering them regardless of the circumstances isn't.

Can shooting them be self-defence if you believe the burglars have weapons and are approaching?

Case by case basis basically.

A friend of my fathers is (now a retired) Policeman. He once gave me some advice, to state, if you'd harmed/killed an intruder. 'Officer, he was coming right at me'. They don't like burglars any more than we do.

[bitchstewie]

I don't think you have to be a retired Policeman to realise that "I fking hate burglars he had it coming" probably won't go in your favour

[Fermit]

bhstewie said:

I don't think you have to be a retired Policeman to realise that "I fking hate burglars he had it coming" probably won't go in your favour

Of course, true. He stated to use that sentence word for word, and accordingly (unless other evidence comes about to the contrary) it would be deemed a self defence incident from the off.