Health and Safety, how's your H&S game?

[ChevronB19]

I’ve seen the radiation ones (which really should’ve had a warning before showing them), but in all honesty the worst I’ve seen in terms of ‘omg’ rather than ultimate result was someone who got their hand stuck in an ‘office grade’ paper shredder. That really did make me feel queasy.

When I started my PhD we had H&S demos, one was about needle stick injuries. It was still in the days of OHP’s, so lecturer broke a test tube or something and put it on the OHP to show us the silhouette. He forgot to take it off, and next lecturer managed to stab himself with it when changing acetates.

Next week I started my lab work using concentrated hydrofluoric acid, minimal instructions and no supervision on first use…

[vaud]

Of course we can't forget the genius of Forklift driver Klaus - The first day on job | A Short Film by Jörg Wagner & Stefan Prehn

Stick with it... possibly NSFW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChOHnSL7ZCg&ab...

[Voldemort]

I think the H&S zealots have not realised that not only can you not eliminate all risks but that a level of injury/death is socially acceptable.

For example we have -ish 3,500 road fatalities per year. A number we could get down to single figures if we simply banned all motor vehicles. But life would be virtually unlivable - in practical terms - and so we accept the 3,500 deaths as a fair price for having food in the supermarkets, being able to work more than a couple of miles from where you live, transporting sick people to hospital in a hurry, etc.

[carlo996]

dudleybloke said:

I had a heated argument with one office spod who was threatening to sack me unless I wore gloves while using a pillar drill.
Needless to say he didn't like being told he was wrong, and I'm almost sorry about the very loud Joey Deacon impression I was doing to him in front of everyone.

One of the most dangerous things you can do that…loose gloves are a no no with machinery for me.

Back when I started in a mould shop it was easy. Don’t be fking stupid, use some common sense being the general way to behave.
Nowadays though two things. bd lawyers, and social media have happened. The absolutely insane things people do to put themselves in harms way to promote their daftness on special media means we have to play to the lowest common denominator.
Then, those lovely legal types, just waiting to sue. We had a case where I had to write a statement about some equipment. Operator decided to go for an injury claim and ended up smashing his hand to pieces. Luckily CCTV caught the incident and it was clear he had bypassed some hardware. So, fired, and a knackered hand. His legal team were the kind of scabby bottom feeders who infect industry these days, and why we are where we are. It’s a st circle sandwich.

It used to be a quick call that an inspector was on site which meant a flurry of guards being put back on Now, you’re forced to have to sit through ‘safety orientation’ conducted by (usually) a failed engineer…quite how anyone can do that job is beyond me!

[carlo996]

BlindedByTheLights said:

lrdisco said:

Thread resurrection.
I’m working as a H&S lead manager on a very large construction project in the UK.
Just been over ruled by a director without discussion as they wanted to get something done and they didn’t want to wait for 2 hours. They wanted to just get on with it.
stty attitudes to H&S are still out there.

They are and it’s frustrating when it happens. All we can do is step back and give our advice sometimes. If something does go wrong it’s the managers and leaders the HSE want to speak with.

And you know that between an over zealous HS type and an under pressure Director there will be a truth in the middle.

Another fab example. A HS site manager, who was one of most extreme ‘I own this site’ types decided that he’d lock and padlock some control panels which we needed to access on a Saturday morning to ensure a deadline was met. We arrived, no HS guy, he was asleep after his night out. So, as the lead engineer I cut the locks off, team completed the work, then locked out with the correct kit before leaving.
The shade of red his face was at the Monday project meeting I’ll never forget. Then the absolute bking the CEO and his global HS head gave him, in front of us.
He retired the year after. Prick.

[BlindedByTheLights]

Unfortunately what some of you are describing is some old school safety people that gave the profession a bad name. Safety doesn’t come first, it isn’t priority no 1, it’s something that must support operations and making money, ie it shouldn’t be a blocker but should support competent trained people working in a way where risk is controlled but not always eliminated (nice if it can be but not always possible).

[J4CKO]

Voldemort said:

I think the H&S zealots have not realised that not only can you not eliminate all risks but that a level of injury/death is socially acceptable.

For example we have -ish 3,500 road fatalities per year. A number we could get down to single figures if we simply banned all motor vehicles. But life would be virtually unlivable - in practical terms - and so we accept the 3,500 deaths as a fair price for having food in the supermarkets, being able to work more than a couple of miles from where you live, transporting sick people to hospital in a hurry, etc.

"H and S Zealots" ?

I am sure some are a bit like that, but by and large, my experience is that they were just folk doing a job and trying to keep you safe.

A bit past is to protect the company, but nobody wants people dying or being maimed.

And the UK road deaths have been under 2000 for a good few years, plus obviously a lot of serious injuries that we tend to dismiss a bit as they arent dead, but if you lose a leg or something, its pretty devastating, and some injuries are litterally a fate worse than death.

[Gary C]

Discendo Discimus said:

I'm a project manager in a construction based industry, every job has a site / task specific risk assessment and method statement that's about 35 pages long. Every single task is outlined in a step by step way.

It's overkill, but injuries and deaths are so common in my industry, it's more to protect the company than the individual sadly. They won't read those 35 pages, they'll just sign the back page and crack on. They won't pay attention during the induction or the toolbox talks, but they always tend to regret it when they've dropped a piece of spiral duct onto their arm and the only thing keeping them alive is a tourniquet that I'm applying.

In my personal life I'm much, much more risk averse than my wife and family members / friends. I see them doing something stupid and want to say something but don't want to appear a knob. I just keep my lot safe and carry on, meanwhile my wife leaves my beautifully sharpened Japanese chef knife right next to the edge of the counter when my 3 year old is walking around.

My problem with the way we tend to do risk assessments is that we then include the 35 pages into the work instruction. Pages of tables, matrices and tick boxes when the person doing the work just needs the outcome of the assessment, not the assessment itself.

[Gary C]

Voldemort said:

I think the H&S zealots have not realised that not only can you not eliminate all risks but that a level of injury/death is socially acceptable.

For example we have -ish 3,500 road fatalities per year. A number we could get down to single figures if we simply banned all motor vehicles. But life would be virtually unlivable - in practical terms - and so we accept the 3,500 deaths as a fair price for having food in the supermarkets, being able to work more than a couple of miles from where you live, transporting sick people to hospital in a hurry, etc.

and yet, your probably glad the HSE inspectors are very rigorous when they come and inspect me and how I do my job ?

I have always found an imagination is the best way to stay safe but I have done things I was totally happy with but would put me down the road today.
A company cannot afford to have employees climbing on plant 100ft in the air (even if it was fun).

I tell you this, when someone dies the whole attitude of the workplace changes.

We have two adjacent sites and the accident happened next door. The effect on people I knew was profound and is still echoing today 13 years later. I remember a brief from a manager who had to visit his family, I don't think she really ever got over it and left not too long after.

You really really don't want to experience it.

It wasn't an accident, the victim chose to do the wrong thing (for the right reasons I believe) and paid the price, but so did everyone else.

and some still are.

[Discendo Discimus]

Gary C said:

Voldemort said:

I think the H&S zealots have not realised that not only can you not eliminate all risks but that a level of injury/death is socially acceptable.

For example we have -ish 3,500 road fatalities per year. A number we could get down to single figures if we simply banned all motor vehicles. But life would be virtually unlivable - in practical terms - and so we accept the 3,500 deaths as a fair price for having food in the supermarkets, being able to work more than a couple of miles from where you live, transporting sick people to hospital in a hurry, etc.

and yet, your probably glad the HSE inspectors are very rigorous when they come and inspect me and how I do my job ?

I have always found an imagination is the best way to stay safe but I have done things I was totally happy with but would put me down the road today.
A company cannot afford to have employees climbing on plant 100ft in the air (even if it was fun).

I tell you this, when someone dies the whole attitude of the workplace changes.

We have two adjacent sites and the accident happened next door. The effect on people I knew was profound and is still echoing today 13 years later. I remember a brief from a manager who had to visit his family, I don't think she really ever got over it and left not too long after.

You really really don't want to experience it.

It wasn't an accident, the victim chose to do the wrong thing (for the right reasons I believe) and paid the price, but so did everyone else.

and some still are.

Agreed, everyone moans about H&S stuff until someone loses their life on site and you're left to mop up the mess and explain to their family why it happened. We had one recently that was completely avoidable and was once again due to a lone worker trying to save time, and the people around him not knowing how to rescue him from a MEWP at height. Horrendous, the lad was only 23.

[oddball1313]

Half the problem with the H &S crowd is there's no filter regarding whats a serious hazard and what isn't - they'll have everyone messing about making 'Training Matrix's' and doing refresher courses for activities people do every day making there less time to focus on the actual real hazards and what to do mitigating accidents happening in those areas. I'm currently having to put my forklift guys on a refresher course for something they do every day (loading CNC machines up to 25000kg) and are more experienced than the instructor who has lifted a few pallets at a sandwich factory

[Zetec-S]

Work in an office, so will probably admit that I sort of view H&S in the workplace as something which tends to concern people in the field, on the shop floor, etc. I think the problem comes when someone tries to apply a blanket approach, I'm not ever going to be cutting sheet metal or welding so tend to glaze over when they discuss that sort of thing. Not completely, I guess I still have a vague interest, but when I look at other (office) colleagues I can see they've switched off.

The only time I've been picked up on by H&S was for stacking some archive boxes next to the radiator, apparently it was a fire hazard :shrug:

At home I'm a lot more conscious than when I was younger. I remember building a fairly large shed, needed to get on the roof which was about 8 foot high, only had a 5 foot stepladder. No problem I'd just haul myself up from the top step, then dangle my legs when I needed to get down. Stepladder was never on a properly level surface either. I'd also be clambering up with power tools (plugged in) as well... Thankfully these days I'm a lot more cautious - goggles, mask, ear defenders, gloves etc. And no fking about on ladders.

[Gary C]

oddball1313 said:

Half the problem with the H &S crowd is there's no filter regarding whats a serious hazard and what isn't - they'll have everyone messing about making 'Training Matrix's' and doing refresher courses for activities people do every day making there less time to focus on the actual real hazards and what to do mitigating accidents happening in those areas. I'm currently having to put my forklift guys on a refresher course for something they do every day (loading CNC machines up to 25000kg) and are more experienced than the instructor who has lifted a few pallets at a sandwich factory

Dont really disagree with your main point

Paperwork doesn't make people safer, but then again letting people just get on with it does breed contempt.

as everything in life, a balance needs to be struck. a 'H&S' professional should be more concerned about helping people than filling in matrixes but I certainly know more of the latter than the former

Most of us have seen risk takers at work (or been one ) and probably turned a blind eye in the past but now, very different. Someone was rigging a load from a ladder. All seemed ok until someone walking by pulled them up as the ladder was adjacent to a 50ft drop down a hoist well.
Now the chance of them falling off the correctly deployed ladder was tiny but if they had, they would have been dead. Simple fall restraint deployed and all good.

People didn't get a bking either. Probably felt a little daft.

H&S has got a bad press for the daftness by the uneducated and I can't help but get annoyed when an operator won't open a valve that we have operated for years but means reaching though a handrail but I am much more likely to go home than I was when I started (its more boring though)

[carlo996]

It’s got bad press for a good reason. A lot of the people working within it, just go looking for tick boxes.

[hidetheelephants]

carlo996 said:

dudleybloke said:

I had a heated argument with one office spod who was threatening to sack me unless I wore gloves while using a pillar drill.
Needless to say he didn't like being told he was wrong, and I'm almost sorry about the very loud Joey Deacon impression I was doing to him in front of everyone.

One of the most dangerous things you can do that…loose gloves are a no no with machinery for me.

Back when I started in a mould shop it was easy. Don’t be fking stupid, use some common sense being the general way to behave.
Nowadays though two things. bd lawyers, and social media have happened. The absolutely insane things people do to put themselves in harms way to promote their daftness on special media means we have to play to the lowest common denominator.
Then, those lovely legal types, just waiting to sue. We had a case where I had to write a statement about some equipment. Operator decided to go for an injury claim and ended up smashing his hand to pieces. Luckily CCTV caught the incident and it was clear he had bypassed some hardware. So, fired, and a knackered hand. His legal team were the kind of scabby bottom feeders who infect industry these days, and why we are where we are. It’s a st circle sandwich.

It used to be a quick call that an inspector was on site which meant a flurry of guards being put back on Now, you’re forced to have to sit through ‘safety orientation’ conducted by (usually) a failed engineer…quite how anyone can do that job is beyond me!

This attitude is why H&S is needed, guards or interlocks aren't for workers, they're for the inspector to inspect and the guy who worked the way everyone works and had an accident did it wrong and it was his fault. This is hubris.

[grumpy52]

Doofus said:

grumpy52 said:

Enough experience to know when the visiting H&S "expert" is talking bo**ocks !
Sent off with advice about sex and travel .
Best advice I ever received was from an old workshop foreman, don't put your fingers,toes or face where you wouldn't put your c*#k .

So don' t open any doors, turn on any lights, walk anywhere, use any tools, write anything down etc etc etc.

H&S irritates the hell out of me, but not as much as what you poeted.

Oh like being told to wear equipment when on fire duty that wasn't anything like fireproof. Much like Motorsport marshalls forced to wear sponsors tabards that aren't fireproof over their fireproof overalls..
Being told to wear ear defenders when dealing with fires when your ears are the best indicator that you're getting to close to the heat source.
Many have been on general H&S courses who then think they are qualified to comment on all H&S matters when they haven't got a clue .
I have lots of time for genuine HSE inspectors but little time for most company H&S people.
Including one who put herself in a very dangerous place to have a go at me because she hadn't seen me engage some safety equipment. She got a final warning for that one and it wasn't me that reported it .

[carlo996]

hidetheelephants said:

This attitude is why H&S is needed, guards or interlocks aren't for workers, they're for the inspector to inspect and the guy who worked the way everyone works and had an accident did it wrong and it was his fault. This is hubris.

If someone wants to hurt themselves they will find a way. With many years of experience in heavy industry accidents happen. These days people don’t want to take any kind of personal responsibility for their actions, it’s not confidence that kills, it’s stupidity. Respect the things you work on, take pride in your work.

[loskie]

"professional driver" is by and large a joke especially when it comes to minicabs and vans.

[surveyor]

We've changes from using external consultants to an internal resource in the last couple of years.

Some of it is a little OTT, but our H&S manager is a good bloke and he's just trying to keep us safe. He is Mr H&S in every way, including driving a Lexus, but interestingly his early career was very not much H&S as a marine...

What does surprise me is 50 KG or so of metal falling off a building, along with the bricks that was holding up is not a notifiable event.

[gazza285]

Risk assess this job I was on, replacing broken or loose rivets on this rail bridge with HSFG bolts. The trains were still running as well.