Private schools, times a changing?
Discussion
borcy said:
In what sense are they responsible to their local community? By that i mean in a practical sense.
How do parents hold them to account in way they couldn't/ didn't before academies?
The point being discussed was accountability in academies with a feel to the debate that academies were somehow less accountable. I mentioned RSCs already and Ofsted is a shared line of accountability.How do parents hold them to account in way they couldn't/ didn't before academies?
All schools are accountable to parents and the community where parental choice is a practical reality.
The point wasn't that both LA schools and academies do or don't have parent governers, it was that academies can have community governors and sometimes an LA governor. I've previously been on the GB, and remain a Member of a MAT, relating to academies with both.
Academy and Free School independence from LA control has all manner of implications, including that new academies and free schools are founded in a process which includes community involvement. Many LA schools were founded in the year dot by officialdom and are seen as accountable to the community because they're also accountable to an LA, however those two things may appear the same but aren't.
turbobloke said:
borcy said:
In what sense are they responsible to their local community? By that i mean in a practical sense.
How do parents hold them to account in way they couldn't/ didn't before academies?
The point being discussed was accountability in academies with a feel to the debate that academies were somehow less accountable. I mentioned RSCs already and Ofsted is a shared line of accountability.How do parents hold them to account in way they couldn't/ didn't before academies?
All schools are accountable to parents and the community where parental choice is a practical reality.
The point wasn't that both LA schools and academies do or don't have parent governers, it was that academies can have community governors and sometimes an LA governor. I've previously been on the GB, and remain a Member of a MAT, relating to academies with both.
Academy and Free School independence from LA control has all manner of implications, including that new academies and free schools are founded in a process which includes community involvement. Many LA schools were founded in the year dot by officialdom and are seen as accountable to the community because they're also accountable to an LA, however those two things may appear the same but aren't.
I don't the role of RSCs, are they different from LA control/oversight?
I'm not following the line of accountablity to the community, the only example so far is parent choice. I'm not that's the same.
otolith said:
Talksteer said:
The academy chains were meant to add some elements of competition as better schools took over failing ones. However the issue there is that academy schools are substantially more expensive to administer than an LEA school and aren't accountable to parents or the local community.
How accountable are LEA schools, really?My local academy has a forum for parents but ultimately it has zero power over the trust or trustees. The school feels free to just ignore the local community when it has negative externalities like parking chaos including staff parking inconsiderately because they couldn't be bothered to get out to unlock gates to get to their off road parking spaces.
Talksteer said:
otolith said:
Talksteer said:
The academy chains were meant to add some elements of competition as better schools took over failing ones. However the issue there is that academy schools are substantially more expensive to administer than an LEA school and aren't accountable to parents or the local community.
How accountable are LEA schools, really?My local academy has a forum for parents but ultimately it has zero power over the trust or trustees. The school feels free to just ignore the local community when it has negative externalities like parking chaos including staff parking inconsiderately because they couldn't be bothered to get out to unlock gates to get to their off road parking spaces.
turbobloke said:
Academies are alsoaccountable to governors (LGB) which will include parent governors, and can include community governors and an LA governor given many Trusts collaborate closely with the LA not least to support strategic objectives. A local parking problem is very annoying and avoidable usually, and it's not limited to academies and free schoois. Are the teachers parking unlawfully - in which case they should be ticketed. Other than that it's one for the statutory complaints process, how did the complaint go?
My local academy does not have governors, it is part of a multi academy trust. The trust has some parents on the trustee board but the board selects who these are (most appear to be either education professionals or senior professionals) and they aren't at the local school.Parent governors at my daughter's school are elected by parents at the school.
Talksteer said:
turbobloke said:
Academies are alsoaccountable to governors (LGB) which will include parent governors, and can include community governors and an LA governor given many Trusts collaborate closely with the LA not least to support strategic objectives. A local parking problem is very annoying and avoidable usually, and it's not limited to academies and free schoois. Are the teachers parking unlawfully - in which case they should be ticketed. Other than that it's one for the statutory complaints process, how did the complaint go?
My local academy does not have governors, it is part of a multi academy trust. The trust has some parents on the trustee board but the board selects who these are (most appear to be either education professionals or senior professionals) and they aren't at the local school.Parent governors at my daughter's school are elected by parents at the school.
I see the Beeb has regurgitated the Labour/IFS VAT exemption b
ks again today.
Learning shouldn't be taxed. Dive in to the IFS report and it's a remarkable piece of political theatre. It has to reference the savings made by privately educated children not being provided for by the state. But it can't equate that with what it frames as state subsidy by not taxing payments to schools that are not state run.
Step back and see the problem through the prism of the state legislating that children have to be educated. It supposedly commits to providing education for all children, but doesn't and can't. It's the elephant in the room that it has to ignore. It then blithely attempts to regard private education as inelastic, without any regard to the obvious economic situation facing many private providers.
It then also makes the leap to try and justify VAT by arguing that if parents weren't paying the fees, they'd spend the money in other areas that would incur VAT. It's a risible piece of work.
If vouchers aren't the solution, then those that don't incur State costs should get a rebate. That obviously includes those that are home schooled.
The education sector is inherently unfair. That exists across the whole system and isn't restricted to the state/private schism. Live in the wrong postcode and you might be excluded from having your children taught in a better school that is actually a closer travel distance away.
Improvement needs investment and money needs to be raised to pay for that. But it also needs honesty. VAT on fees will simply make private education more elitist. The subsidy of the state system by private school parents, will continue, now added to by tax paid out of income already taxed. Very little will change until it is accepted that schools need to be removed from political influence, funded properly and parents listened to and respected.
Taxing education. Madness.
ks again today. Learning shouldn't be taxed. Dive in to the IFS report and it's a remarkable piece of political theatre. It has to reference the savings made by privately educated children not being provided for by the state. But it can't equate that with what it frames as state subsidy by not taxing payments to schools that are not state run.
Step back and see the problem through the prism of the state legislating that children have to be educated. It supposedly commits to providing education for all children, but doesn't and can't. It's the elephant in the room that it has to ignore. It then blithely attempts to regard private education as inelastic, without any regard to the obvious economic situation facing many private providers.
It then also makes the leap to try and justify VAT by arguing that if parents weren't paying the fees, they'd spend the money in other areas that would incur VAT. It's a risible piece of work.
If vouchers aren't the solution, then those that don't incur State costs should get a rebate. That obviously includes those that are home schooled.
The education sector is inherently unfair. That exists across the whole system and isn't restricted to the state/private schism. Live in the wrong postcode and you might be excluded from having your children taught in a better school that is actually a closer travel distance away.
Improvement needs investment and money needs to be raised to pay for that. But it also needs honesty. VAT on fees will simply make private education more elitist. The subsidy of the state system by private school parents, will continue, now added to by tax paid out of income already taxed. Very little will change until it is accepted that schools need to be removed from political influence, funded properly and parents listened to and respected.
Taxing education. Madness.
Talksteer said:
otolith said:
Talksteer said:
The academy chains were meant to add some elements of competition as better schools took over failing ones. However the issue there is that academy schools are substantially more expensive to administer than an LEA school and aren't accountable to parents or the local community.
How accountable are LEA schools, really?My local academy has a forum for parents but ultimately it has zero power over the trust or trustees. The school feels free to just ignore the local community when it has negative externalities like parking chaos including staff parking inconsiderately because they couldn't be bothered to get out to unlock gates to get to their off road parking spaces.
Leithen said:
I see the Beeb has regurgitated the Labour/IFS VAT exemption bks again today.
Learning shouldn't be taxed. Dive in to the IFS report and it's a remarkable piece of political theatre. It has to reference the savings made by privately educated children not being provided for by the state. But it can't equate that with what it frames as state subsidy by not taxing payments to schools that are not state run.
Step back and see the problem through the prism of the state legislating that children have to be educated. It supposedly commits to providing education for all children, but doesn't and can't. It's the elephant in the room that it has to ignore. It then blithely attempts to regard private education as inelastic, without any regard to the obvious economic situation facing many private providers.
It then also makes the leap to try and justify VAT by arguing that if parents weren't paying the fees, they'd spend the money in other areas that would incur VAT. It's a risible piece of work.
If vouchers aren't the solution, then those that don't incur State costs should get a rebate. That obviously includes those that are home schooled.
The education sector is inherently unfair. That exists across the whole system and isn't restricted to the state/private schism. Live in the wrong postcode and you might be excluded from having your children taught in a better school that is actually a closer travel distance away.
Improvement needs investment and money needs to be raised to pay for that. But it also needs honesty. VAT on fees will simply make private education more elitist. The subsidy of the state system by private school parents, will continue, now added to by tax paid out of income already taxed. Very little will change until it is accepted that schools need to be removed from political influence, funded properly and parents listened to and respected.
Taxing education. Madness.
In an election year with this threat of spite and envy looming, it is surprising the current government is doing nothing to address this especially whilst it has a working majority. Surely they can address and debate while they have the edge, or do they not see any danger?ks again today. Learning shouldn't be taxed. Dive in to the IFS report and it's a remarkable piece of political theatre. It has to reference the savings made by privately educated children not being provided for by the state. But it can't equate that with what it frames as state subsidy by not taxing payments to schools that are not state run.
Step back and see the problem through the prism of the state legislating that children have to be educated. It supposedly commits to providing education for all children, but doesn't and can't. It's the elephant in the room that it has to ignore. It then blithely attempts to regard private education as inelastic, without any regard to the obvious economic situation facing many private providers.
It then also makes the leap to try and justify VAT by arguing that if parents weren't paying the fees, they'd spend the money in other areas that would incur VAT. It's a risible piece of work.
If vouchers aren't the solution, then those that don't incur State costs should get a rebate. That obviously includes those that are home schooled.
The education sector is inherently unfair. That exists across the whole system and isn't restricted to the state/private schism. Live in the wrong postcode and you might be excluded from having your children taught in a better school that is actually a closer travel distance away.
Improvement needs investment and money needs to be raised to pay for that. But it also needs honesty. VAT on fees will simply make private education more elitist. The subsidy of the state system by private school parents, will continue, now added to by tax paid out of income already taxed. Very little will change until it is accepted that schools need to be removed from political influence, funded properly and parents listened to and respected.
Taxing education. Madness.
Tom8 said:
Leithen said:
I see the Beeb has regurgitated the Labour/IFS VAT exemption bks again today.
Learning shouldn't be taxed. Dive in to the IFS report and it's a remarkable piece of political theatre. It has to reference the savings made by privately educated children not being provided for by the state. But it can't equate that with what it frames as state subsidy by not taxing payments to schools that are not state run.
Step back and see the problem through the prism of the state legislating that children have to be educated. It supposedly commits to providing education for all children, but doesn't and can't. It's the elephant in the room that it has to ignore. It then blithely attempts to regard private education as inelastic, without any regard to the obvious economic situation facing many private providers.
It then also makes the leap to try and justify VAT by arguing that if parents weren't paying the fees, they'd spend the money in other areas that would incur VAT. It's a risible piece of work.
If vouchers aren't the solution, then those that don't incur State costs should get a rebate. That obviously includes those that are home schooled.
The education sector is inherently unfair. That exists across the whole system and isn't restricted to the state/private schism. Live in the wrong postcode and you might be excluded from having your children taught in a better school that is actually a closer travel distance away.
Improvement needs investment and money needs to be raised to pay for that. But it also needs honesty. VAT on fees will simply make private education more elitist. The subsidy of the state system by private school parents, will continue, now added to by tax paid out of income already taxed. Very little will change until it is accepted that schools need to be removed from political influence, funded properly and parents listened to and respected.
Taxing education. Madness.
In an election year with this threat of spite and envy looming, it is surprising the current government is doing nothing to address this especially whilst it has a working majority. Surely they can address and debate while they have the edge, or do they not see any danger?ks again today. Learning shouldn't be taxed. Dive in to the IFS report and it's a remarkable piece of political theatre. It has to reference the savings made by privately educated children not being provided for by the state. But it can't equate that with what it frames as state subsidy by not taxing payments to schools that are not state run.
Step back and see the problem through the prism of the state legislating that children have to be educated. It supposedly commits to providing education for all children, but doesn't and can't. It's the elephant in the room that it has to ignore. It then blithely attempts to regard private education as inelastic, without any regard to the obvious economic situation facing many private providers.
It then also makes the leap to try and justify VAT by arguing that if parents weren't paying the fees, they'd spend the money in other areas that would incur VAT. It's a risible piece of work.
If vouchers aren't the solution, then those that don't incur State costs should get a rebate. That obviously includes those that are home schooled.
The education sector is inherently unfair. That exists across the whole system and isn't restricted to the state/private schism. Live in the wrong postcode and you might be excluded from having your children taught in a better school that is actually a closer travel distance away.
Improvement needs investment and money needs to be raised to pay for that. But it also needs honesty. VAT on fees will simply make private education more elitist. The subsidy of the state system by private school parents, will continue, now added to by tax paid out of income already taxed. Very little will change until it is accepted that schools need to be removed from political influence, funded properly and parents listened to and respected.
Taxing education. Madness.
Louis Balfour said:
Tom8 said:
Leithen said:
I see the Beeb has regurgitated the Labour/IFS VAT exemption bks again today.
Learning shouldn't be taxed. Dive in to the IFS report and it's a remarkable piece of political theatre. It has to reference the savings made by privately educated children not being provided for by the state. But it can't equate that with what it frames as state subsidy by not taxing payments to schools that are not state run.
Step back and see the problem through the prism of the state legislating that children have to be educated. It supposedly commits to providing education for all children, but doesn't and can't. It's the elephant in the room that it has to ignore. It then blithely attempts to regard private education as inelastic, without any regard to the obvious economic situation facing many private providers.
It then also makes the leap to try and justify VAT by arguing that if parents weren't paying the fees, they'd spend the money in other areas that would incur VAT. It's a risible piece of work.
If vouchers aren't the solution, then those that don't incur State costs should get a rebate. That obviously includes those that are home schooled.
The education sector is inherently unfair. That exists across the whole system and isn't restricted to the state/private schism. Live in the wrong postcode and you might be excluded from having your children taught in a better school that is actually a closer travel distance away.
Improvement needs investment and money needs to be raised to pay for that. But it also needs honesty. VAT on fees will simply make private education more elitist. The subsidy of the state system by private school parents, will continue, now added to by tax paid out of income already taxed. Very little will change until it is accepted that schools need to be removed from political influence, funded properly and parents listened to and respected.
Taxing education. Madness.
In an election year with this threat of spite and envy looming, it is surprising the current government is doing nothing to address this especially whilst it has a working majority. Surely they can address and debate while they have the edge, or do they not see any danger?ks again today. Learning shouldn't be taxed. Dive in to the IFS report and it's a remarkable piece of political theatre. It has to reference the savings made by privately educated children not being provided for by the state. But it can't equate that with what it frames as state subsidy by not taxing payments to schools that are not state run.
Step back and see the problem through the prism of the state legislating that children have to be educated. It supposedly commits to providing education for all children, but doesn't and can't. It's the elephant in the room that it has to ignore. It then blithely attempts to regard private education as inelastic, without any regard to the obvious economic situation facing many private providers.
It then also makes the leap to try and justify VAT by arguing that if parents weren't paying the fees, they'd spend the money in other areas that would incur VAT. It's a risible piece of work.
If vouchers aren't the solution, then those that don't incur State costs should get a rebate. That obviously includes those that are home schooled.
The education sector is inherently unfair. That exists across the whole system and isn't restricted to the state/private schism. Live in the wrong postcode and you might be excluded from having your children taught in a better school that is actually a closer travel distance away.
Improvement needs investment and money needs to be raised to pay for that. But it also needs honesty. VAT on fees will simply make private education more elitist. The subsidy of the state system by private school parents, will continue, now added to by tax paid out of income already taxed. Very little will change until it is accepted that schools need to be removed from political influence, funded properly and parents listened to and respected.
Taxing education. Madness.
Leithen said:
Taxing education. Madness.
Quite...It's like a dodgy accountant who came to rescue a sinking company by promising to generate more revenue while charging employees for drinking water or using the toilets...
The funny side, he will have delusional followers who can't do the math but they just hate everyone so giving a full support anyway.
turbobloke said:
Talksteer said:
turbobloke said:
Academies are alsoaccountable to governors (LGB) which will include parent governors, and can include community governors and an LA governor given many Trusts collaborate closely with the LA not least to support strategic objectives. A local parking problem is very annoying and avoidable usually, and it's not limited to academies and free schoois. Are the teachers parking unlawfully - in which case they should be ticketed. Other than that it's one for the statutory complaints process, how did the complaint go?
My local academy does not have governors, it is part of a multi academy trust. The trust has some parents on the trustee board but the board selects who these are (most appear to be either education professionals or senior professionals) and they aren't at the local school.Parent governors at my daughter's school are elected by parents at the school.
The only organisation that can overrule the trust is central government and they aren't going to do anything unless the issue is so big it makes the national press.
I'm sure that most will want to maintain good relations with parents/students but in practice they are less accountable and in the case of MATs more remote from the local area, essentially school by quango.
Talksteer said:
turbobloke said:
Talksteer said:
turbobloke said:
Academies are alsoaccountable to governors (LGB) which will include parent governors, and can include community governors and an LA governor given many Trusts collaborate closely with the LA not least to support strategic objectives. A local parking problem is very annoying and avoidable usually, and it's not limited to academies and free schoois. Are the teachers parking unlawfully - in which case they should be ticketed. Other than that it's one for the statutory complaints process, how did the complaint go?
My local academy does not have governors, it is part of a multi academy trust. The trust has some parents on the trustee board but the board selects who these are (most appear to be either education professionals or senior professionals) and they aren't at the local school.Parent governors at my daughter's school are elected by parents at the school.
The only organisation that can overrule the trust is central government and they aren't going to do anything unless the issue is so big it makes the national press.
I'm sure that most will want to maintain good relations with parents/students but in practice they are less accountable and in the case of MATs more remote from the local area, essentially school by quango.
-very few Trusts act as you describe above (3%) and there's no evidence available showing these 3% underperform in a systematic way compared to the 97%
-the regional school commissioner (office) has power to take action with regard to academies and free schools
-structures don't determine accountability, LA schools can ignore parents' views if they choose to do so
A focus on structure and process via a paper exercise in terms of accountability isn't helpful compared to a review of outcomes i.e. what happens in practice. The quality of governance is variable and GBs are primarily accountable to the LA in non-academy schools.
A mix of LA comprehensives and academies/free schools gives parents a wider choice, which is a good thing fundamentally.
Our local independent (where our two daughters attend) has just announced it won't be reopening after the summer holidays. Incredibly sad for the pupils and staff, school siting economic and political environment which has caused September's intake to be well down & loosing existing pupils.
Teaching and results are both excellent, we're gutted and trying to figure out what next.
Teaching and results are both excellent, we're gutted and trying to figure out what next.
Alton, we're looking at Barfields today, had some recommendations there & the fees are in line with Alton, what is a shame is it is primary only, having the secondary element at Alton was a real positive for us (as was being able to walk there in 10 minutes).
They've been trying to sell the school in an effort to save it, redundancy timelines for staff have forced their hands to now pull the plug.
They've been trying to sell the school in an effort to save it, redundancy timelines for staff have forced their hands to now pull the plug.
Ah. I’m from near Alton - I assume this is the old convent you’re talking about? That’s a surprise indeed, shame.
Barfield always used to be nice but it’s a fair way away, I went to a lot of summer camps there. Lord Wandsworth the closest I expect, wonderful facilities there but it isn’t cheap, Frensham Heights, Edgeborough not too far away.
Barfield always used to be nice but it’s a fair way away, I went to a lot of summer camps there. Lord Wandsworth the closest I expect, wonderful facilities there but it isn’t cheap, Frensham Heights, Edgeborough not too far away.
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