Evolution - is it real?
Discussion
Nimby said:
I count 57 winners in total since 2000, and as only one identifies as Christian or "Christian background" (whatever that means).
Clearly the trend is that scientists are becoming less and less religious.
'Christain background' is a bit nebulous. I went to a school where I went to church every day and sang in the choir, so that sounds a lot like a Christain background, but I'm an atheist. Clearly the trend is that scientists are becoming less and less religious.
Edited by Nimby on Saturday 9th January 15:03
otolith said:
I have known scientists of faith, though the vast majority were atheists (the majority were also biologists who have a particular long standing beef with the god-botherers). Those who were religious were basically compartmentalising their belief systems and not dealing with the cognitive dissonance.
That rings true with me.I’d add that on occasions the compartment approach (Stephen J Gould’s NOMA approach) gets replaced by some dialogue on ‘boundary’ questions where ethics (non religious and religious based) are involved. We can select from embryos for a particular end; but should we etc
JonChalk said:
..and just because sometimes it helps to do a little bit of research before glibly posting erroneous / ignorant stuff;
Here is a handy summary of major religion's views on the theory of evolution, which is generally along the lines of "Yes, it's accepted as that's how it happened, but religion is to do with the soul, not how we physically got here";
https://www.pewforum.org/2009/02/04/religious-grou...
When religions say they accept evolution theory is true, it's because they don't understand it. One of the cornerstones of biological evolution is that it's unplanned, and it has no goal. So if evolution was the method that God used to kick off life on Earth, then he did so a bit like the man who invented the lotto draw machine. He made it but he has no idea of the results it would produce. So God started off evolution but had no idea that it would give us humans, cacti, giraffes and coconuts. And he/she has no idea what evolution will have given the world in another couple of billion years. Here is a handy summary of major religion's views on the theory of evolution, which is generally along the lines of "Yes, it's accepted as that's how it happened, but religion is to do with the soul, not how we physically got here";
https://www.pewforum.org/2009/02/04/religious-grou...
That's what believing in Darwinian biological evolution means, and I don't know a single religious leader that would accept that as true.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
When religions say they accept evolution theory is true, it's because they don't understand it.
Not sure about that. That’s very generalised. I’d agree that unplanned nature of evolution is unappreciated by many of faith and presents big problems for traditional theism.However if you’re saying someone like Alister McGrath with a doctorate in molecular biology, also an ordained chap doesn’t understand evolution (which he obviously accepts wholeheartedly) then
I’d argue you’re wrong sir.
Edited by standards on Saturday 9th January 16:57
I nearly forgot Project Steve.
Creationists' "appeal to authority" argument never ends well for them.
Creationists' "appeal to authority" argument never ends well for them.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
That's what believing in Darwinian biological evolution means, and I don't know a single religious leader that would accept that as true.
They have to accept it though, otherwise, they would look rather foolish. I'm not sure how many religious leaders actually believe in the supernatural stuff. I think for many of them it's primarily a steady job.standards said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
When religions say they accept evolution theory is true, it's because they don't understand it.
Not sure about that. That’s very generalised. I’d agree that unplanned nature of evolution is unappreciated by many of faith and presents big problems for traditional theism.However if you’re saying someone like Alister McGrath with a doctorate in molecular biology, also an ordained chap doesn’t understand evolution (which he obviously accepts wholeheartedly) then
I’d argue you’re wrong sir.
Edited by standards on Saturday 9th January 16:57
M5-911 said:
standards said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
When religions say they accept evolution theory is true, it's because they don't understand it.
Not sure about that. That’s very generalised. I’d agree that unplanned nature of evolution is unappreciated by many of faith and presents big problems for traditional theism.However if you’re saying someone like Alister McGrath with a doctorate in molecular biology, also an ordained chap doesn’t understand evolution (which he obviously accepts wholeheartedly) then
I’d argue you’re wrong sir.
Edited by standards on Saturday 9th January 16:57
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Individuals may believe it, but if you're telling me the pope accepts god kicked off evolution with no idea that man would arrive billions of years later to worship him, and god, right now, has no idea what's to come in the future, I don't believe you.
Not a RC myself, but His Holiness might hold a view of God as timeless, whereas we, as Hume pointed out, view everything through the lens of space and time. So you’re right!TwigtheWonderkid said:
Individuals may believe it, but if you're telling me the pope accepts god kicked off evolution with no idea that man would arrive billions of years later to worship him, and god, right now, has no idea what's to come in the future, I don't believe you.
Pope Francis in 2014:“When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” Francis said.
“The Big Bang, which today we hold to be the origin of the world, does not contradict the intervention of the divine creator but, rather, requires it. Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve.”
..and one of the key tenets of Catholicism;
“…methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God.”
Edited by JonChalk on Saturday 9th January 17:41
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Individuals may believe it, but if you're telling me the pope accepts god kicked off evolution with no idea that man would arrive billions of years later to worship him, and god, right now, has no idea what's to come in the future, I don't believe you.
Worth having a look at St Augustin and Gregory of Nyssa doctrine of perpetual progress (1500 years before Darwin).Gregory of Nyssa (331-396) "taught that the Creation was potential - that God imparted to matter its fundamental laws and properties, but that the objects and completed forms of the Universe then developed gradually, under their own steam, out of primordial chaos."
JonChalk said:
Pope Francis in 2014:
“When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” Francis said.
“The Big Bang, which today we hold to be the origin of the world, does not contradict the intervention of the divine creator but, rather, requires it. Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve.”
..and one of the key tenets of Catholicism;
“…methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God.”
The pope has been forced into a corner by reality and is saying things that are nonsense even by the standards of religious people. “When we read about Creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so,” Francis said.
“The Big Bang, which today we hold to be the origin of the world, does not contradict the intervention of the divine creator but, rather, requires it. Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve.”
..and one of the key tenets of Catholicism;
“…methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God.”
Edited by JonChalk on Saturday 9th January 17:41
I was brought up in a Christian society and it was all about a personal God who had made man in his image and sent his own son to save us. I don’t see how you can say that but at the same time accept that humans are not special (we are just an highly intelligent ape) and that our existence is just chance eg without the meteor that killed off the dinosaurs we wouldn’t be here. At best science has removed God to something that pressed the button on the Big Bang but then that makes no sense either (because God’s existence is not necessary, isn’t explainable and would add the complication of how God came into existence).
Furthermore “love” and “good and evil” are just human inventions and stem from us being social animals that have emotions to facilitate group relationships. So all the stuff about God loving us is nonsense too.
All human societies have creation myths and religions. No one believes in the thousands of other religions and their silly descriptions of reality yet some people cling to the childish beliefs of their own religion. It is pathetic really.
otolith said:
I think theologians are usually capable of spinning enough sophistry to accommodate whatever changes in dogma are adopted. The same trick to reconcile omniscience and foreknowledge with free will would work for creation and evolution.
The trick as you put it seems to involve wrestling with the issue of our concept of time. I think that’s an interesting one myself.AW111 said:
Can we get away from pointless religion bashing and back to evolution please.
OK one of my favourites. All animals (and fungi) have structural tissue made from collagen. To make collagen you need ascorbic acid. Humans can't manufacture ascorbic acid - we need it in our diet - so call it a vitamin; vitamin C in fact.Now the odd thing is that our bodies do try to make it from scratch. Several of the initial stages work fine but we have a defective gene ("GLO") so can't make one of the necessary enzymes right, and a crucial step fails.
Not a problem for our ancestors as they got enough vitamin C in their diet from fruit and veg, so somehow this defective gene was able to spread throughout the population some time ago.
A very long time ago in fact, because all the great apes (gorillas, chimps, bonobos, humans) have exactly the same mutations in their GLO gene. Other monkeys are normal.
That's pretty hard to explain if we don't have a common ancestor with the other apes.
AW111 said:
Can we get away from pointless religion bashing and back to evolution please.
You know those little birds that live on rhinos. You never see a rhino without a bird. It's a symbiotic relationship. The bird gets calorie free travel, a diet of ticks and insects, and can meet up with other birds of the same species when the rhino meets other rhinos. The rhino gets it's ticks and parasites cleaned, and without the bird, they would eventually overwhelm the rhino and kill it. But when we see it, we know that the bird is a different animal to the rhino, with it's own goals and independent life cycle. If the bird lived inside the rhino, it would still be a completely different creature to the rhino. So humans have 30 trillion cells. But here's the big thing, the other creatures that live in and on us, bacteria, fungi, etc, number 39 trillion cells. So when you look in the mirror, you see a human, but the fact is, over 50% of you isn't human at all, but completely different creatures with their own lifecycle. Our skin, eyelashes, ears and eyes, our gut.....all full to bursting of other life forms.
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