RE: 2024 Hyundai Ioniq 5 N | PH Review
Discussion
CG2020UK said:
Thankfully a decent amount. Though not sure it’s relevance in this instance to this discussion.
We are talking common road cars here that are regularly tested eg: M4 vs Model 3 Performance. We aren’t talking stripped out modified racers. I’ve never mentioned endurance on track that’s a whole separate issue and I’ve no interest in it. You’re arguing a different point that I’m not debating.
What I’m saying and I think you have agreed (bottom 2 paragraphs) is that individually CoG or weight doesn’t matter in isolation.
If you see a magazine/YouTube test of a Tesla Model 3 Performance doing a hypothetical lap in 1min30sec with 460hp and a Civic Type R does a 1min10sec with 315hp surely we can safely assume the Type R has better handling in this instance. COG or weight be damned.
Handling is not necessary conductive of lap time. You probably mean lateral grip and traction. Which is quite different.We are talking common road cars here that are regularly tested eg: M4 vs Model 3 Performance. We aren’t talking stripped out modified racers. I’ve never mentioned endurance on track that’s a whole separate issue and I’ve no interest in it. You’re arguing a different point that I’m not debating.
What I’m saying and I think you have agreed (bottom 2 paragraphs) is that individually CoG or weight doesn’t matter in isolation.
If you see a magazine/YouTube test of a Tesla Model 3 Performance doing a hypothetical lap in 1min30sec with 460hp and a Civic Type R does a 1min10sec with 315hp surely we can safely assume the Type R has better handling in this instance. COG or weight be damned.
And can you link that particular test please?
I'll repeat:
The salient point that I am struggling to make is that CoG height and PMOI are as important metrics as weight alone. If he is around GT9 will confirm that from a pure engineering/physics POV, the extra mass is by and large offset by the better CoG and weight distribution as they're both contributing to lateral load generated in centripetal / centrifugal forces.
Lat grip increases when weight is reduced but also when weight is lowered. And in the case of functionnaly comparable vehicles one roughly offsets for the other when comparing EV to ICE.
A typical EV low PMOI will tend to improve handling, particularly turn in and direction changes.
This may help compare Model 3 to CTR although they're not back to back but still
https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/4omgzjdz8gul
Edited by nickfrog on Monday 1st April 01:20
CG2020UK said:
That’s too light for a Tesla even by their own info.
https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_cn/GU...
Only reason I know the Tesla weight is because I’ve become quite invested in following the bonkers drag race times they get in the US and they all typically weigh over 4100lbs at the drag strip. Despite me never having launched a car in my life it’s my dirty secret
Regarding the other stuff surely we still can’t be pretending EVs are somehow dynamically superior when they typically need double the power to match an ICE car on track.
Ah fair enough, there’s a fair few articles stating circa 1,600kg. https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_cn/GU...
Only reason I know the Tesla weight is because I’ve become quite invested in following the bonkers drag race times they get in the US and they all typically weigh over 4100lbs at the drag strip. Despite me never having launched a car in my life it’s my dirty secret
Regarding the other stuff surely we still can’t be pretending EVs are somehow dynamically superior when they typically need double the power to match an ICE car on track.
My comment was in relation to weight/pot holes, we’ve replaced an ICE with an EV that serves the same purpose and is pretty much the same weight.
Having owned an FL5 Type R and now a Model 3 no way would I compare them dynamically. The Type R is in a different league. I wouldn’t expect them to be cross shopped.
CG2020UK said:
Thankfully a decent amount. Though not sure it’s relevance in this instance to this discussion.
We are talking common road cars here that are regularly tested eg: M4 vs Model 3 Performance. We aren’t talking stripped out modified racers. I’ve never mentioned endurance on track that’s a whole separate issue and I’ve no interest in it. You’re arguing a different point that I’m not debating.
What I’m saying and I think you have agreed (bottom 2 paragraphs) is that individually CoG or weight doesn’t matter in isolation.
If you see a magazine/YouTube test of a Tesla Model 3 Performance doing a hypothetical lap in 1min30sec with 460hp and a Civic Type R does a 1min10sec with 315hp surely we can safely assume the Type R has better handling in this instance. COG or weight be damned.
What is a hypothetical lap time? We are talking common road cars here that are regularly tested eg: M4 vs Model 3 Performance. We aren’t talking stripped out modified racers. I’ve never mentioned endurance on track that’s a whole separate issue and I’ve no interest in it. You’re arguing a different point that I’m not debating.
What I’m saying and I think you have agreed (bottom 2 paragraphs) is that individually CoG or weight doesn’t matter in isolation.
If you see a magazine/YouTube test of a Tesla Model 3 Performance doing a hypothetical lap in 1min30sec with 460hp and a Civic Type R does a 1min10sec with 315hp surely we can safely assume the Type R has better handling in this instance. COG or weight be damned.
Which track is this and can you post the link please?
nickfrog said:
CG2020UK said:
Thankfully a decent amount. Though not sure it’s relevance in this instance to this discussion.
We are talking common road cars here that are regularly tested eg: M4 vs Model 3 Performance. We aren’t talking stripped out modified racers. I’ve never mentioned endurance on track that’s a whole separate issue and I’ve no interest in it. You’re arguing a different point that I’m not debating.
What I’m saying and I think you have agreed (bottom 2 paragraphs) is that individually CoG or weight doesn’t matter in isolation.
If you see a magazine/YouTube test of a Tesla Model 3 Performance doing a hypothetical lap in 1min30sec with 460hp and a Civic Type R does a 1min10sec with 315hp surely we can safely assume the Type R has better handling in this instance. COG or weight be damned.
Handling is not necessary conductive of lap time. You probably mean lateral grip and traction. Which is quite different.We are talking common road cars here that are regularly tested eg: M4 vs Model 3 Performance. We aren’t talking stripped out modified racers. I’ve never mentioned endurance on track that’s a whole separate issue and I’ve no interest in it. You’re arguing a different point that I’m not debating.
What I’m saying and I think you have agreed (bottom 2 paragraphs) is that individually CoG or weight doesn’t matter in isolation.
If you see a magazine/YouTube test of a Tesla Model 3 Performance doing a hypothetical lap in 1min30sec with 460hp and a Civic Type R does a 1min10sec with 315hp surely we can safely assume the Type R has better handling in this instance. COG or weight be damned.
And can you link that particular test please?
I'll repeat:
The salient point that I am struggling to make is that CoG height and PMOI are as important metrics as weight alone. If he is around GT9 will confirm that from a pure engineering/physics POV, the extra mass is by and large offset by the better CoG and weight distribution as they're both contributing to lateral load generated in centripetal / centrifugal forces.
Lat grip increases when weight is reduced but also when weight is lowered. And in the case of functionnaly comparable vehicles one roughly offsets for the other when comparing EV to ICE.
A typical EV low PMOI will tend to improve handling, particularly turn in and direction changes.
This may help compare Model 3 to CTR although they're not back to back but still
https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/4omgzjdz8gul
Edited by nickfrog on Monday 1st April 01:20
nickfrog said:
Handling is not necessary conductive of lap time. You probably mean lateral grip and traction. Which is quite different.
At a basic level grip and traction are pretty important components that make up the handling of a car are they not?There are others eg: COG, aerodynamics or weight.
nickfrog said:
And can you link that particular test please?
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/hypothetical#Hypothetical means imagined.
In this case I imagine those lap times and cars to put forward the hypothesis that if a car has less power but can go faster round a track it’s because it handles better.
Real examples see M3 vs Tesla Model 3 Performance.
M5 CS vs Tesla Model S Plaid
(Sorry Tesla folks promise I like Tesla!)
nickfrog said:
I'll repeat:
The salient point that I am struggling to make is that CoG height and PMOI are as important metrics as weight alone. If he is around GT9 will confirm that from a pure engineering/physics POV, the extra mass is by and large offset by the better CoG and weight distribution as they're both contributing to lateral load generated in centripetal / centrifugal forces.
Lat grip increases when weight is reduced but also when weight is lowered. And in the case of functionnaly comparable vehicles one roughly offsets for the other when comparing EV to ICE.
A typical EV low PMOI will tend to improve handling, particularly turn in and direction changes.
This may help compare Model 3 to CTR although they're not back to back but still
https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/4omgzjdz8gul
Yes I totally agree with your salient point.The salient point that I am struggling to make is that CoG height and PMOI are as important metrics as weight alone. If he is around GT9 will confirm that from a pure engineering/physics POV, the extra mass is by and large offset by the better CoG and weight distribution as they're both contributing to lateral load generated in centripetal / centrifugal forces.
Lat grip increases when weight is reduced but also when weight is lowered. And in the case of functionnaly comparable vehicles one roughly offsets for the other when comparing EV to ICE.
A typical EV low PMOI will tend to improve handling, particularly turn in and direction changes.
This may help compare Model 3 to CTR although they're not back to back but still
https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/4omgzjdz8gul
Edited by nickfrog on Monday 1st April 01:20
I think your issue is that you are struggling to connect what you are saying to how that actually plays out or we would measure it in the real world.
All those advantages you’ve giving for EVs are variables you can adjust in any car. Surely we can agree that at a basic level if you took 2 identical cars (exact same model and spec) but you lowered one of those cars’ COG (within reason) the outcome of that lower COG would be a slightly quicker lap time
Ultimately having a lower COG (although a nice advantage) is irrelevant if your car has the same/more power than it’s rivals but still goes slower round a track (it’s the real world test) because it’s handling is still worse (though not necessarily bad).
nickfrog said:
Handling is not necessary conductive of lap time. You probably mean lateral grip and traction. Which is quite different.
And can you link that particular test please?
I'll repeat:
The salient point that I am struggling to make is that CoG height and PMOI are as important metrics as weight alone. If he is around GT9 will confirm that from a pure engineering/physics POV, the extra mass is by and large offset by the better CoG and weight distribution as they're both contributing to lateral load generated in centripetal / centrifugal forces.
Lat grip increases when weight is reduced but also when weight is lowered. And in the case of functionnaly comparable vehicles one roughly offsets for the other when comparing EV to ICE.
A typical EV low PMOI will tend to improve handling, particularly turn in and direction changes.
This may help compare Model 3 to CTR although they're not back to back but still
https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/4omgzjdz8gul
Nick, I understood what you meant. Sometimes people just don't take the time to read a post properly. Pitchforks and predelictions probably blind them a little....And can you link that particular test please?
I'll repeat:
The salient point that I am struggling to make is that CoG height and PMOI are as important metrics as weight alone. If he is around GT9 will confirm that from a pure engineering/physics POV, the extra mass is by and large offset by the better CoG and weight distribution as they're both contributing to lateral load generated in centripetal / centrifugal forces.
Lat grip increases when weight is reduced but also when weight is lowered. And in the case of functionnaly comparable vehicles one roughly offsets for the other when comparing EV to ICE.
A typical EV low PMOI will tend to improve handling, particularly turn in and direction changes.
This may help compare Model 3 to CTR although they're not back to back but still
https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/4omgzjdz8gul
Edited by nickfrog on Monday 1st April 01:20
biggbn said:
nickfrog said:
Handling is not necessary conductive of lap time. You probably mean lateral grip and traction. Which is quite different.
And can you link that particular test please?
I'll repeat:
The salient point that I am struggling to make is that CoG height and PMOI are as important metrics as weight alone. If he is around GT9 will confirm that from a pure engineering/physics POV, the extra mass is by and large offset by the better CoG and weight distribution as they're both contributing to lateral load generated in centripetal / centrifugal forces.
Lat grip increases when weight is reduced but also when weight is lowered. And in the case of functionnaly comparable vehicles one roughly offsets for the other when comparing EV to ICE.
A typical EV low PMOI will tend to improve handling, particularly turn in and direction changes.
This may help compare Model 3 to CTR although they're not back to back but still
https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/4omgzjdz8gul
Nick, I understood what you meant. Sometimes people just don't take the time to read a post properly. Pitchforks and predelictions probably blind them a little....And can you link that particular test please?
I'll repeat:
The salient point that I am struggling to make is that CoG height and PMOI are as important metrics as weight alone. If he is around GT9 will confirm that from a pure engineering/physics POV, the extra mass is by and large offset by the better CoG and weight distribution as they're both contributing to lateral load generated in centripetal / centrifugal forces.
Lat grip increases when weight is reduced but also when weight is lowered. And in the case of functionnaly comparable vehicles one roughly offsets for the other when comparing EV to ICE.
A typical EV low PMOI will tend to improve handling, particularly turn in and direction changes.
This may help compare Model 3 to CTR although they're not back to back but still
https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/4omgzjdz8gul
Edited by nickfrog on Monday 1st April 01:20
My hypothesis is that around the 8 tracks highlighted by Fastest laps the Tesla is 15 seconds faster than the Civic Type R. Circa 2.25%
blueg33 said:
No buses round here, very few EV’s but potholes galore. One burst a run flat on my Alfa a couple of eeeks ago
It’s not EV’s that cause potholes. It’s crap road maintenance.
And ridiculous amounts of rain.It’s not EV’s that cause potholes. It’s crap road maintenance.
Our road is very busy and we do get potholes sometimes, This year is one of them.
carlo996 said:
Why are people obsessed with trying to prove the handling prowess of EV? It’s the least likely choice to enjoy a trackday? That’s if it’s even allowed on track. It’s the same with the 0-60 stats, it’s missing the point completely.
To disabuse some posters like CG2020UK when they write"If you see a magazine/YouTube test of a Tesla Model 3 Performance doing a hypothetical lap in 1min30sec with 460hp and a Civic Type R does a 1min10sec with 315hp surely we can safely assume the Type R has better handling in this instance. COG or weight be damned."
Basically in the real world EVs like the Tesla 3 and others have a good turn of speed with a cornering ability that matches some so called performance versions of ICEs and from and EV perspective it's only going to get better.
Nomme de Plum said:
To disabuse some posters like CG2020UK when they write
"If you see a magazine/YouTube test of a Tesla Model 3 Performance doing a hypothetical lap in 1min30sec with 460hp and a Civic Type R does a 1min10sec with 315hp surely we can safely assume the Type R has better handling in this instance. COG or weight be damned."
Basically in the real world EVs like the Tesla 3 and others have a good turn of speed with a cornering ability that matches some so called performance versions of ICEs and from and EV perspective it's only going to get better.
And? The primary purpose of a track day is fun, and EV’s, are efficient as a daily driver but lack the main ingredient which imo is what 99% of track day participants want. It’s never been about pure pace, I think some don’t get it tbh. It’s as irrelevant as comparing a Golf R to a Le Mans winning D Type."If you see a magazine/YouTube test of a Tesla Model 3 Performance doing a hypothetical lap in 1min30sec with 460hp and a Civic Type R does a 1min10sec with 315hp surely we can safely assume the Type R has better handling in this instance. COG or weight be damned."
Basically in the real world EVs like the Tesla 3 and others have a good turn of speed with a cornering ability that matches some so called performance versions of ICEs and from and EV perspective it's only going to get better.
740EVTORQUES said:
My EV is easily the fastest car cross country that I’ve had, and that includes the 911
previous username said:
Maybe a country where people aren’t so triggered by threats to their masculinity that they need to demonstrate on a daily basis by driving needlessly powerful, wasteful cars when just commuting to work would be a bit less miserable?
I mean demeaning small, efficient, cheap, well designed cars is just a bit insecure don’t you think Carlo?
I mean demeaning small, efficient, cheap, well designed cars is just a bit insecure don’t you think Carlo?
carlo996 said:
Why are people obsessed with trying to prove the handling prowess of EV? It’s the least likely choice to enjoy a trackday?
I haven't seen anyone do that here. Someone mentionned hypothetical lap times which proved to be quite the opposite to the reality. Not that handling and lap times are necessarily linked.It remains the case that EV have inherent idiosyncratic attributes that help them overcome their higher inherent mass and offset its effects on both lat grip (CoG height) and handling (low PMOI).
I don't choose an EV for my track days either.
carlo996 said:
Nomme de Plum said:
To disabuse some posters like CG2020UK when they write
"If you see a magazine/YouTube test of a Tesla Model 3 Performance doing a hypothetical lap in 1min30sec with 460hp and a Civic Type R does a 1min10sec with 315hp surely we can safely assume the Type R has better handling in this instance. COG or weight be damned."
Basically in the real world EVs like the Tesla 3 and others have a good turn of speed with a cornering ability that matches some so called performance versions of ICEs and from and EV perspective it's only going to get better.
And? The primary purpose of a track day is fun, and EV’s, are efficient as a daily driver but lack the main ingredient which imo is what 99% of track day participants want. It’s never been about pure pace, I think some don’t get it tbh. It’s as irrelevant as comparing a Golf R to a Le Mans winning D Type."If you see a magazine/YouTube test of a Tesla Model 3 Performance doing a hypothetical lap in 1min30sec with 460hp and a Civic Type R does a 1min10sec with 315hp surely we can safely assume the Type R has better handling in this instance. COG or weight be damned."
Basically in the real world EVs like the Tesla 3 and others have a good turn of speed with a cornering ability that matches some so called performance versions of ICEs and from and EV perspective it's only going to get better.
However many families will simply have 1 or 2 cars both of which are needed for various functions and cars like a Type R or M3/M4 do not feature. Their sales numbers are minuscule when compared to popular models or even lower spec versions of the Civic or BMWs.
The point is that an EV by the very nature of the electric motor and weight distribution can give families a practicable but quick vehicle across a range of conditions.
I reiterate EVs are not sufficiently developed to be a fun track car unless you happen to have £1M for a McMurtry. This will change.
Nomme de Plum said:
To disabuse some posters like CG2020UK when they write
"If you see a magazine/YouTube test of a Tesla Model 3 Performance doing a hypothetical lap in 1min30sec with 460hp and a Civic Type R does a 1min10sec with 315hp surely we can safely assume the Type R has better handling in this instance. COG or weight be damned."
Basically in the real world EVs like the Tesla 3 and others have a good turn of speed with a cornering ability that matches some so called performance versions of ICEs and from and EV perspective it's only going to get better.
I know you had to ask what hypothetical means but honestly thought you were just doing your usual."If you see a magazine/YouTube test of a Tesla Model 3 Performance doing a hypothetical lap in 1min30sec with 460hp and a Civic Type R does a 1min10sec with 315hp surely we can safely assume the Type R has better handling in this instance. COG or weight be damned."
Basically in the real world EVs like the Tesla 3 and others have a good turn of speed with a cornering ability that matches some so called performance versions of ICEs and from and EV perspective it's only going to get better.
Every thread where people are discussing EVs and a comparison comes up against another car that maybe just happens to be ICE you and the same couple of people just come on and trash the whole thread with the same silly insults.
CG2020UK said:
Nomme de Plum said:
To disabuse some posters like CG2020UK when they write
"If you see a magazine/YouTube test of a Tesla Model 3 Performance doing a hypothetical lap in 1min30sec with 460hp and a Civic Type R does a 1min10sec with 315hp surely we can safely assume the Type R has better handling in this instance. COG or weight be damned."
Basically in the real world EVs like the Tesla 3 and others have a good turn of speed with a cornering ability that matches some so called performance versions of ICEs and from and EV perspective it's only going to get better.
I know you had to ask what hypothetical means but honestly thought you were just doing your usual."If you see a magazine/YouTube test of a Tesla Model 3 Performance doing a hypothetical lap in 1min30sec with 460hp and a Civic Type R does a 1min10sec with 315hp surely we can safely assume the Type R has better handling in this instance. COG or weight be damned."
Basically in the real world EVs like the Tesla 3 and others have a good turn of speed with a cornering ability that matches some so called performance versions of ICEs and from and EV perspective it's only going to get better.
Every thread where people are discussing EVs and a comparison comes up against another car that maybe just happens to be ICE you and the same couple of people just come on and trash the whole thread with the same silly insults.
I did not ask what hypothetical means and if you re-read my post you just may understand my question.
It seems that you make assertions but are unable to back them up.
Why you would come up with some hypothesis of a Civic Typer R at 1:10 and Tesla 3P at 1:30 is beyond me as if you knew anything about hypothesise you would understand they are based on available data to allow interpolation or extrapolation within defined parameters so there is no evidential basis to your numbers.
No insults just my posts based on available information to date.
Nomme de Plum said:
Why you would come up with some hypothesis of a Civic Typer R at 1:10 and Tesla 3P at 1:30 is beyond me as if you knew anything about hypothesise you would understand they are based on available data to allow interpolation or extrapolation within defined parameters so there is no evidential basis to your numbers.
Hypothesis comes before you gather dataCG2020UK said:
Nomme de Plum said:
Why you would come up with some hypothesis of a Civic Typer R at 1:10 and Tesla 3P at 1:30 is beyond me as if you knew anything about hypothesise you would understand they are based on available data to allow interpolation or extrapolation within defined parameters so there is no evidential basis to your numbers.
Hypothesis comes before you gather dataEdited by Nomme de Plum on Monday 1st April 19:01
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