Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?
Discussion
Pan Pan Pan said:
Disastrous said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Wrong. All that will happen is that after 5, 10, or fifteen years in No 10, The UK public will get fed up with labour, just like they are fed up with the tories now, and vote the tories in again.
Labour had a150 seat majority when they were last in power, They still got massively kicked out in the last GE.
You don't seriously believe that all those tory voters, who cannot or will not vote tory in this years GE, are going to vote labour in this years farce do you?
And so the process goes on.
All I can say is if labour `do' honour all the promises `they' have made in the run up to this years election, we will all be in the land of milk and honey.
The only problem is, that this is what all parties in the last 50 years have been promising us, and not one, NOT ONE of them has delivered on their promises. and made the situation for the UK public any better.
Those that actually think they will, are just grasping at non existent straws.
Honestly, you’re like a skipping record. But a rubbish one you wouldn’t want to be listening to anyway. Labour had a150 seat majority when they were last in power, They still got massively kicked out in the last GE.
You don't seriously believe that all those tory voters, who cannot or will not vote tory in this years GE, are going to vote labour in this years farce do you?
And so the process goes on.
All I can say is if labour `do' honour all the promises `they' have made in the run up to this years election, we will all be in the land of milk and honey.
The only problem is, that this is what all parties in the last 50 years have been promising us, and not one, NOT ONE of them has delivered on their promises. and made the situation for the UK public any better.
Those that actually think they will, are just grasping at non existent straws.
Do you not get tired of just saying the same thing over and over almost verbatim? There’s almost no thought or reason whatsoever. Nothing penetrates, or makes you consider a different view. You’re like some sort of conversational Terminator, relentlessly scanning the chat until you can find some prose you can torture sufficiently to wheel out one of about 4 stock paragraphs. Brutal.
(The sad part is I suspect almost everyone on here could type your inevitable ‘riposte’ to this almost word perfectly)
The reason I put them round ‘riposte’ by the way,
was to suggest that your response wouldn’t be worthy of being called a riposte. History has proven me to be correct.
Wombat3 said:
What are you on about??
Like I said, they will have to get money from somewhere. Liklihood is (like all politicians) they will f
k other things up in the process because they don't seem to think things through. They also like to follow the path of least resistance. They are not going to just whack it on the basic rate of income tax or stick VAT upto 30% are they?? (despite the fact that its the easiest way to raise the most money)
As to the PE VAT thing,. there are a number of reports out there that put the cost at somewhere in the order of £1.6Bn if I recall, go DYOR
On second thought, from your contributions to the relevant thread, you are not capable of joining the dots on that stuff, so maybe don't bother, it probably won't make any sense to you. (And for clarity I have no dog in that fight, my children are long past school age).
My point is you don't even know they'll have a go at public school VAT. You definitely don't know what else they'll do and that's an issue for you and me. If you're thread checking check my comments on the Starmer one, I don't think it's a good thing to have so many unknowns.Like I said, they will have to get money from somewhere. Liklihood is (like all politicians) they will f
k other things up in the process because they don't seem to think things through. They also like to follow the path of least resistance. They are not going to just whack it on the basic rate of income tax or stick VAT upto 30% are they?? (despite the fact that its the easiest way to raise the most money)As to the PE VAT thing,. there are a number of reports out there that put the cost at somewhere in the order of £1.6Bn if I recall, go DYOR
On second thought, from your contributions to the relevant thread, you are not capable of joining the dots on that stuff, so maybe don't bother, it probably won't make any sense to you. (And for clarity I have no dog in that fight, my children are long past school age).
I'm prepared to agree on some of your points. But I don't believe in a world of pixie dust of low taxes and public services for all. I'm not buying what reform are selling.
Yes, it's possible and maybe likely that labour will go for VAT on private schools. It's a low hanging fruit. They've backed off removing tax free status because it isn't. Expect more political realities to hit them.
But don't expect Reform UK to stop saying how they could do it better with pixie dust and dreams.
Jazzy Jag said:
S366 said:
It’s like picking a pineapple to shove up your behind, they’re all going to hurt you, it’s just a case of choosing which will hurt the least.
Global politics summed up in one line!
The recent elections seemed very tied into what is happening in Gaza. Yes, that is an important topic...but in a local election, I would think the main drivers should be local issues. This chappie for the Green Party in Leeds for example.....
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13384283/...
Well.....he would not be what most people would surely picture as a Green Party candidate.
I think that the electorate are voting along ethnic and religious lines now more than Party lines. Or shall we say....voting fot the person and not the party....like the Conservative mayor in North Yorkshire, who did not mention his party prominently on his bumper, or wear a blue rosette. The party is secondary.
I think I'm done with politics. It makes no sense or difference to me. It is largely irrelevant and become increasingly more irrelevant to me. In fact, I'm thinking that I will eventually leave the UK. Its become an overly expensive, lawless, overpopulated and uncivilised place. It has not improved over the decades that I have had a vote.
I may have to instead seek citizenship of a nation that uses the smallest pineapples available.
cheesejunkie said:
Wombat3 said:
What are you on about??
Like I said, they will have to get money from somewhere. Liklihood is (like all politicians) they will fk other things up in the process because they don't seem to think things through. They also like to follow the path of least resistance. They are not going to just whack it on the basic rate of income tax or stick VAT upto 30% are they?? (despite the fact that its the easiest way to raise the most money)
As to the PE VAT thing,. there are a number of reports out there that put the cost at somewhere in the order of £1.6Bn if I recall, go DYOR
On second thought, from your contributions to the relevant thread, you are not capable of joining the dots on that stuff, so maybe don't bother, it probably won't make any sense to you. (And for clarity I have no dog in that fight, my children are long past school age).
My point is you don't even know they'll have a go at public school VAT. You definitely don't know what else they'll do and that's an issue for you and me. If you're thread checking check my comments on the Starmer one, I don't think it's a good thing to have so many unknowns.Like I said, they will have to get money from somewhere. Liklihood is (like all politicians) they will f
k other things up in the process because they don't seem to think things through. They also like to follow the path of least resistance. They are not going to just whack it on the basic rate of income tax or stick VAT upto 30% are they?? (despite the fact that its the easiest way to raise the most money)As to the PE VAT thing,. there are a number of reports out there that put the cost at somewhere in the order of £1.6Bn if I recall, go DYOR
On second thought, from your contributions to the relevant thread, you are not capable of joining the dots on that stuff, so maybe don't bother, it probably won't make any sense to you. (And for clarity I have no dog in that fight, my children are long past school age).
I'm prepared to agree on some of your points. But I don't believe in a world of pixie dust of low taxes and public services for all. I'm not buying what reform are selling.
Yes, it's possible and maybe likely that labour will go for VAT on private schools. It's a low hanging fruit. They've backed off removing tax free status because it isn't. Expect more political realities to hit them.
But don't expect Reform UK to stop saying how they could do it better with pixie dust and dreams.
On the PE VAT thing, I think Labour have made it pretty clear they will do it. If they don't follow through on that then you can add it to an ever-growing list of policy U-turns. But its been out there for a while now.
As I've said elsewhere, the fact that its even being touted as a possibility will already be causing people to make decisions which will have consequences even if its not introduced.
VAT on PE is going to raise very little, indeed as reported its more likely it will cost money so its just the worst sort of idealogical garbage. Its never a serious revenue raiser.
On the rest of it, you are right, low hanging fruit is where Reeves will go - and that's pensions, ISAs & corporation tax & possibly capital allowances. Could also be CGT rates IMO.. i.e. taxes on saving and taxes on Investing. Don't expect your personal allowances to go up either.
Absolute f
kwittery for the long term- but it won't actually hit too many people in the here & now so its politically expedient.Wombat3 said:
Reform are not a serious proposition and without some much more serious & credible people, they won't be. They are really pretty irrelevant in this cycle & could quite well not make it to the next one.
On the PE VAT thing, I think Labour have made it pretty clear they will do it. If they don't follow through on that then you can add it to an ever-growing list of policy U-turns. But its been out there for a while now.
As I've said elsewhere, the fact that its even being touted as a possibility will already be causing people to make decisions which will have consequences even if its not introduced.
VAT on PE is going to raise very little, indeed as reported its more likely it will cost money so its just the worst sort of idealogical garbage. Its never a serious revenue raiser.
On the rest of it, you are right, low hanging fruit is where Reeves will go - and that's pensions, ISAs & corporation tax & possibly capital allowances. Could also be CGT rates IMO.. i.e. taxes on saving and taxes on Investing. Don't expect your personal allowances to go up either.
Absolute fkwittery for the long term- but it won't actually hit too many people in the here & now so its politically expedient.
ETA agree on reform and agree that some will be making decisions based on the VAT on PE.On the PE VAT thing, I think Labour have made it pretty clear they will do it. If they don't follow through on that then you can add it to an ever-growing list of policy U-turns. But its been out there for a while now.
As I've said elsewhere, the fact that its even being touted as a possibility will already be causing people to make decisions which will have consequences even if its not introduced.
VAT on PE is going to raise very little, indeed as reported its more likely it will cost money so its just the worst sort of idealogical garbage. Its never a serious revenue raiser.
On the rest of it, you are right, low hanging fruit is where Reeves will go - and that's pensions, ISAs & corporation tax & possibly capital allowances. Could also be CGT rates IMO.. i.e. taxes on saving and taxes on Investing. Don't expect your personal allowances to go up either.
Absolute f
kwittery for the long term- but it won't actually hit too many people in the here & now so its politically expedient.But again you went into speculation without evidence on what they'll do. Fear mongering.
VAT on PE doesn't bother me half as much as I imply on the other thread. I just consider it appropriate and react to the flak when I say so.
cheesejunkie said:
Wombat3 said:
Reform are not a serious proposition and without some much more serious & credible people, they won't be. They are really pretty irrelevant in this cycle & could quite well not make it to the next one.
On the PE VAT thing, I think Labour have made it pretty clear they will do it. If they don't follow through on that then you can add it to an ever-growing list of policy U-turns. But its been out there for a while now.
As I've said elsewhere, the fact that its even being touted as a possibility will already be causing people to make decisions which will have consequences even if its not introduced.
VAT on PE is going to raise very little, indeed as reported its more likely it will cost money so its just the worst sort of idealogical garbage. Its never a serious revenue raiser.
On the rest of it, you are right, low hanging fruit is where Reeves will go - and that's pensions, ISAs & corporation tax & possibly capital allowances. Could also be CGT rates IMO.. i.e. taxes on saving and taxes on Investing. Don't expect your personal allowances to go up either.
Absolute fkwittery for the long term- but it won't actually hit too many people in the here & now so its politically expedient.
ETA agree on reform and agree that some will be making decisions based on the VAT on PE.On the PE VAT thing, I think Labour have made it pretty clear they will do it. If they don't follow through on that then you can add it to an ever-growing list of policy U-turns. But its been out there for a while now.
As I've said elsewhere, the fact that its even being touted as a possibility will already be causing people to make decisions which will have consequences even if its not introduced.
VAT on PE is going to raise very little, indeed as reported its more likely it will cost money so its just the worst sort of idealogical garbage. Its never a serious revenue raiser.
On the rest of it, you are right, low hanging fruit is where Reeves will go - and that's pensions, ISAs & corporation tax & possibly capital allowances. Could also be CGT rates IMO.. i.e. taxes on saving and taxes on Investing. Don't expect your personal allowances to go up either.
Absolute f
kwittery for the long term- but it won't actually hit too many people in the here & now so its politically expedient.But again you went into speculation without evidence on what they'll do. Fear mongering.
VAT on PE doesn't bother me half as much as I imply on the other thread. I just consider it appropriate and react to the flak when I say so.
As I said, if she's going after cash IMO those are the areas she will go to.
Obviously, in the absence of any kind of manifesto its all speculation, but those areas are much more likely to get hit than a hike in the basic rate or a VAT increase.
IPT would be another soft target as would an increase in the VAT level on energy, though that one would be more visible & contentious so I doubt it would happen. Much easier to go after something that most people don't understand like capital allowances or some new-fangled version of the LTA - both of which would have much greater consequences than most people realise, which was the whole point of this discussion - the law of unintended consequences in full effect when stupid politicians do stupid things.
Edited by Wombat3 on Tuesday 7th May 00:55
Wombat3 said:
Idealogical taxes that raise next to no revenue (or cost money) are idiotic.
As I said, if she's going after cash IMO those are the areas she will go to.
Obviously, in the absence of any kind of manifesto its all speculation, but those areas are much more likely to get hit than a hike in the basic rate or a VAT increase.
IPT would be another soft target as would an increase in the VAT level on energy, though that one would be more visible & contentious so I doubt it would happen. Much easier to go after something that most people don't understand like capital allowances or some new-fangled version of the LTA - both of which would have much greater consequences than most people realise, which was the whole point of this discussion - the law of unintended consequences in full effect when stupid politicians do stupid things.
I see no VAT on private education as ideological.As I said, if she's going after cash IMO those are the areas she will go to.
Obviously, in the absence of any kind of manifesto its all speculation, but those areas are much more likely to get hit than a hike in the basic rate or a VAT increase.
IPT would be another soft target as would an increase in the VAT level on energy, though that one would be more visible & contentious so I doubt it would happen. Much easier to go after something that most people don't understand like capital allowances or some new-fangled version of the LTA - both of which would have much greater consequences than most people realise, which was the whole point of this discussion - the law of unintended consequences in full effect when stupid politicians do stupid things.
Edited by Wombat3 on Tuesday 7th May 00:55
Again, your speculation may not be wrong but it's speculation. Without a labour manifesto that's all it is and I think we can agree we'd both like to see one although we might not agree what we'd like to see in it.
Public services are skint thanks to 14 years of stupid ideology. Maybe it's time for a change.
cheesejunkie said:
I see no VAT on private education as ideological.
Again, your speculation may not be wrong but it's speculation. Without a labour manifesto that's all it is and I think we can agree we'd both like to see one although we might not agree what we'd like to see in it.
Public services are skint thanks to 14 years of stupid ideology. Maybe it's time for a change.
No VAT on education is just a historical position. Again, your speculation may not be wrong but it's speculation. Without a labour manifesto that's all it is and I think we can agree we'd both like to see one although we might not agree what we'd like to see in it.
Public services are skint thanks to 14 years of stupid ideology. Maybe it's time for a change.
While correcting it might be ideaologically orgasmic (for some), it is economically stupid/illiterate and will do nothing for overall standards of education either. Killing centres of excellence is idiotic. Much better to figure out how to benefit and learn from what they do well.
Public services are skint because we have champagne tastes & beer income (that we then also waste a sizeable chunk of).
More tax or less waste should equal better services but the former won't help unless we fix the latter (and that's before we get to falling PS productivity).
I'd rather they focus on waste & productivity first but that's probably too hard for the poor politicos.
And of course none of them will deal with the elephant in the room either. Public sector pensions which have become unaffordable with 25-30% employer contributions.
TUS373 said:
I totally agree. In the elections last week, I did not vote. I have no motivation to pick a pineapple at all. My ancestors would be horrified that I did not exercise my democratic right to vote. If all of the solutions are taking it up the behind then I'm not going.
The recent elections seemed very tied into what is happening in Gaza. Yes, that is an important topic...but in a local election, I would think the main drivers should be local issues. This chappie for the Green Party in Leeds for example.....
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13384283/...
Well.....he would not be what most people would surely picture as a Green Party candidate.
I think that the electorate are voting along ethnic and religious lines now more than Party lines. Or shall we say....voting fot the person and not the party....like the Conservative mayor in North Yorkshire, who did not mention his party prominently on his bumper, or wear a blue rosette. The party is secondary.
I think I'm done with politics. It makes no sense or difference to me. It is largely irrelevant and become increasingly more irrelevant to me. In fact, I'm thinking that I will eventually leave the UK. Its become an overly expensive, lawless, overpopulated and uncivilised place. It has not improved over the decades that I have had a vote.
I may have to instead seek citizenship of a nation that uses the smallest pineapples available.
To be fair, UK elections have a long history of people voting on religious & ethnic lines - look at Irish/ Northern Irish election results from 1872 (when the secret ballot started) to now. And Gladstone made the "Armenian Question" a key election issue. The recent elections seemed very tied into what is happening in Gaza. Yes, that is an important topic...but in a local election, I would think the main drivers should be local issues. This chappie for the Green Party in Leeds for example.....
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13384283/...
Well.....he would not be what most people would surely picture as a Green Party candidate.
I think that the electorate are voting along ethnic and religious lines now more than Party lines. Or shall we say....voting fot the person and not the party....like the Conservative mayor in North Yorkshire, who did not mention his party prominently on his bumper, or wear a blue rosette. The party is secondary.
I think I'm done with politics. It makes no sense or difference to me. It is largely irrelevant and become increasingly more irrelevant to me. In fact, I'm thinking that I will eventually leave the UK. Its become an overly expensive, lawless, overpopulated and uncivilised place. It has not improved over the decades that I have had a vote.
I may have to instead seek citizenship of a nation that uses the smallest pineapples available.
TUS373 said:
Jazzy Jag said:
S366 said:
It’s like picking a pineapple to shove up your behind, they’re all going to hurt you, it’s just a case of choosing which will hurt the least.
Global politics summed up in one line!The recent elections seemed very tied into what is happening in Gaza. Yes, that is an important topic...but in a local election, I would think the main drivers should be local issues. This chappie for the Green Party in Leeds for example.....
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13384283/...
Well.....he would not be what most people would surely picture as a Green Party candidate.
I think that the electorate are voting along ethnic and religious lines now more than Party lines. Or shall we say....voting fot the person and not the party....like the Conservative mayor in North Yorkshire, who did not mention his party prominently on his bumper, or wear a blue rosette. The party is secondary.
I think I'm done with politics. It makes no sense or difference to me. It is largely irrelevant and become increasingly more irrelevant to me. In fact, I'm thinking that I will eventually leave the UK. Its become an overly expensive, lawless, overpopulated and uncivilised place. It has not improved over the decades that I have had a vote.
I may have to instead seek citizenship of a nation that uses the smallest pineapples available.
Rufus Stone said:
Carl_VivaEspana said:
Janet Daley offers a different view.
"The assumption of the post-war West that the state could provide unlimited resources to insure its population against poverty, ill health and social disadvantage while maintaining a thriving market economy, has reached its endgame."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/04/local-...
Not read the report, but the bit you quoted has some merit in my opinion. There are too many suckling on the states nipple and the NHS costs too much for the tax paying population to support. Hence why we have the highest tax burden for 70 years."The assumption of the post-war West that the state could provide unlimited resources to insure its population against poverty, ill health and social disadvantage while maintaining a thriving market economy, has reached its endgame."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/04/local-...
oyster said:
Rufus Stone said:
Carl_VivaEspana said:
Janet Daley offers a different view.
"The assumption of the post-war West that the state could provide unlimited resources to insure its population against poverty, ill health and social disadvantage while maintaining a thriving market economy, has reached its endgame."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/04/local-...
Not read the report, but the bit you quoted has some merit in my opinion. There are too many suckling on the states nipple and the NHS costs too much for the tax paying population to support. Hence why we have the highest tax burden for 70 years."The assumption of the post-war West that the state could provide unlimited resources to insure its population against poverty, ill health and social disadvantage while maintaining a thriving market economy, has reached its endgame."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/04/local-...
Disastrous said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Disastrous said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
Wrong. All that will happen is that after 5, 10, or fifteen years in No 10, The UK public will get fed up with labour, just like they are fed up with the tories now, and vote the tories in again.
Labour had a150 seat majority when they were last in power, They still got massively kicked out in the last GE.
You don't seriously believe that all those tory voters, who cannot or will not vote tory in this years GE, are going to vote labour in this years farce do you?
And so the process goes on.
All I can say is if labour `do' honour all the promises `they' have made in the run up to this years election, we will all be in the land of milk and honey.
The only problem is, that this is what all parties in the last 50 years have been promising us, and not one, NOT ONE of them has delivered on their promises. and made the situation for the UK public any better.
Those that actually think they will, are just grasping at non existent straws.
Honestly, you’re like a skipping record. But a rubbish one you wouldn’t want to be listening to anyway. Labour had a150 seat majority when they were last in power, They still got massively kicked out in the last GE.
You don't seriously believe that all those tory voters, who cannot or will not vote tory in this years GE, are going to vote labour in this years farce do you?
And so the process goes on.
All I can say is if labour `do' honour all the promises `they' have made in the run up to this years election, we will all be in the land of milk and honey.
The only problem is, that this is what all parties in the last 50 years have been promising us, and not one, NOT ONE of them has delivered on their promises. and made the situation for the UK public any better.
Those that actually think they will, are just grasping at non existent straws.
Do you not get tired of just saying the same thing over and over almost verbatim? There’s almost no thought or reason whatsoever. Nothing penetrates, or makes you consider a different view. You’re like some sort of conversational Terminator, relentlessly scanning the chat until you can find some prose you can torture sufficiently to wheel out one of about 4 stock paragraphs. Brutal.
(The sad part is I suspect almost everyone on here could type your inevitable ‘riposte’ to this almost word perfectly)
The reason I put them round ‘riposte’ by the way,
was to suggest that your response wouldn’t be worthy of being called a riposte. History has proven me to be correct.
tangerine_sedge said:
I hear that Gibraltar is the place of choice for the grand-gesture-Britain-is-doomed-because-labour-might-get-in-government doomsayers...
No objection to Labour per se more than any other party (Rayner being the exception as I really dislike her). I just think that politics and politicians are crap. All the hot air created in Parliament and the House of Lords could be used as a renewable source of energy. Just taken a look at property in Gibralter on Right Move. Its not for me. Typically overpriced and crowded, probably full of pissed up Brits. Australia is out. Too many poisonous creatures there, other than the politicians.
pb8g09 said:
MC Bodge said:
It's odd that the right wing press seemed to over-exaggerate the dislike for Khan...
To be fair, I don’t think Khan is many people’s cup of tea, but the alternatives leave little to go for. My family (that live in London) agree with ULEZ but can’t stand him. Sadly most of his opposition focussed on getting rid of ULEZ as a protest vote so they were left in a hard choice between their values and ultimately a not very honest man.A friend, who has two business outlets, one outside the zone, and one just inside, said he has seen customer numbers drop off a cliff, for the shop which is inside the ULEZ. Such that he intends to shut down the one inside the zone. The old case of unforeseen consequences.
Pan Pan Pan said:
pb8g09 said:
MC Bodge said:
It's odd that the right wing press seemed to over-exaggerate the dislike for Khan...
To be fair, I don’t think Khan is many people’s cup of tea, but the alternatives leave little to go for. My family (that live in London) agree with ULEZ but can’t stand him. Sadly most of his opposition focussed on getting rid of ULEZ as a protest vote so they were left in a hard choice between their values and ultimately a not very honest man.A friend, who has two business outlets, one outside the zone, and one just inside, said he has seen customer numbers drop off a cliff, for the shop which is inside the ULEZ. Such that he intends to shut down the one inside the zone. The old case of unforeseen consequences.
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