So are Landlords finished?
Discussion
Biggy Stardust said:
The money will go into something much more liquid with less aggravation, fewer rules & regulations & no baying mob screaming for my head on a platter.
...and what generous rate of return are you expecting to receive from this magic money tree, whatever it may be, net after inflation? 
absolute bunch of drama queens. Panamax said:
Biggy Stardust said:
The money will go into something much more liquid with less aggravation, fewer rules & regulations & no baying mob screaming for my head on a platter.
...and what generous rate of return are you expecting to receive from this magic money tree, whatever it may be, net after inflation? If he’s lucky. But the probability is good over the long term.
A big problem with landlords are that some have become accustomed to guaranteed returns. Returns that are reliant on government policies and on illiquid assets.
We can debate the service landlords provide. They do, but at what effort and to what standard etc. They’re necessary and as such I’m not against subsidies (Biggy might disagree).
But separate to that how the government chooses to support or not support their existence is flexible and not guaranteed. How it chooses to regulate their eligibility is flexible and not guaranteed. Expectations of return should never be guaranteed as that’s taxpayers subsidising speculators to the cost of taxpayers. Unfortunately for too long they have. They still are if you’re big enough.
Edited by cheesejunkie on Monday 6th May 02:00
Edited by cheesejunkie on Monday 6th May 02:01
cheesejunkie said:
A big problem with landlords are that some have become accustomed to guaranteed returns. Returns that are reliant on government policies and on illiquid assets.
Absolutely. Over the past few centuries landlords have come depend upon the same tax treatment as other business people. Lazy, rapacious b
ds that they are.cheesejunkie said:
Haven’t read this thread in a while and god knows biggy and I disagree on some points. But I’m with him, he’ll get returns.
If he’s lucky. But the probability is good over the long term.
It's in the lap of the gods, as is BTL.If he’s lucky. But the probability is good over the long term.
cheesejunkie said:
A big problem with landlords are that some have become accustomed to guaranteed returns. Returns that are reliant on government policies and on illiquid assets.
I completely disagree- far from being reliant on government policies & illiquidity we could have done better with a lack of interference and less bureaucracy in the sale process.cheesejunkie said:
We can debate the service landlords provide. They do, but at what effort and to what standard etc. They’re necessary and as such I’m not against subsidies (Biggy might disagree).
We don't need subsidies, just a lack of persecution & a more level playing field.Louis Balfour said:
Absolutely. Over the past few centuries landlords have come depend upon the same tax treatment as other business people. Lazy, rapacious bds that they are.
Lol. Where’s your armed guard? Things have changed in the last few centuries.ds that they are.So go limited. Run it as a business, I’d be happy if you did.
I never said lazy. I do think some expect all upside and government to protect what’s a fragile investment if some rules change.
I get biggy’s point about don’t interfere but name me a single area of life where governments don’t interfere? They deal with the now and not what has gone on for centuries.
cheesejunkie said:
I never said lazy. I do think some expect all upside and government to protect what’s a fragile investment if some rules change.
I get biggy’s point about don’t interfere but name me a single area of life where governments don’t interfere? They deal with the now and not what has gone on for centuries.
They have by their own admission targeted LLs for persecution- that's more than ordinary interfering.I get biggy’s point about don’t interfere but name me a single area of life where governments don’t interfere? They deal with the now and not what has gone on for centuries.
They are now seeing consequences exactly as predicted & will squeal when the entirety of it becomes apparent; I suspect that they will then blame LLs for not helping more.
Biggy Stardust said:
They have by their own admission targeted LLs for persecution- that's more than ordinary interfering.
They are now seeing consequences exactly as predicted & will squeal when the entirety of it becomes apparent; I suspect that they will then blame LLs for not helping more.
Again I agree it’s poorly thought out policy. There will be consequences. They won’t be pretty.They are now seeing consequences exactly as predicted & will squeal when the entirety of it becomes apparent; I suspect that they will then blame LLs for not helping more.
But the answer is not preserve landlord’s investments.
What’s a useless government to do?
Should have built much more rental housing before encouraging small timers to leave the rental sector. But that would imply joined up government thinking.
In the long run, the available housing stock isn’t changing and most rental properties are unlikely to be repurposed. That’s slim pickings but it’s the way I think they’re thinking.
To avoid getting into too much agreement, I still think it has been for too long an easy grift
.One of the issues not really talked about directly is if landlords are expecting above inflation returns close to or equal to other investments to make it worthwhile (say 6% a year or so) that is then paid for by others, and typically by those with less money and often more towards the young who haven’t built savings. Those people paying rent and needing to cover those returns for the landlord means it becomes far harder to save up a deposit, because of the increases that keep happening.
cheesejunkie said:
Louis Balfour said:
Absolutely. Over the past few centuries landlords have come depend upon the same tax treatment as other business people. Lazy, rapacious bds that they are.
Lol. Where’s your armed guard? Things have changed in the last few centuries.ds that they are.So go limited. Run it as a business, I’d be happy if you did.
I never said lazy. I do think some expect all upside and government to protect what’s a fragile investment if some rules change.
I get biggy’s point about don’t interfere but name me a single area of life where governments don’t interfere? They deal with the now and not what has gone on for centuries.
The majority of our BTLs are in companies and the others are debt-free so aren't affected by the tax rule changes. I am obviously delighted that you approve.
NRS said:
One of the issues not really talked about directly is if landlords are expecting above inflation returns close to or equal to other investments to make it worthwhile (say 6% a year or so) that is then paid for by others, and typically by those with less money and often more towards the young who haven’t built savings. Those people paying rent and needing to cover those returns for the landlord means it becomes far harder to save up a deposit, because of the increases that keep happening.
Who says we are expecting above inflation returns?cheesejunkie said:
Biggy Stardust said:
They have by their own admission targeted LLs for persecution- that's more than ordinary interfering.
They are now seeing consequences exactly as predicted & will squeal when the entirety of it becomes apparent; I suspect that they will then blame LLs for not helping more.
Again I agree it’s poorly thought out policy. There will be consequences. They won’t be pretty.They are now seeing consequences exactly as predicted & will squeal when the entirety of it becomes apparent; I suspect that they will then blame LLs for not helping more.
But the answer is not preserve landlord’s investments.
What’s a useless government to do?
Should have built much more rental housing before encouraging small timers to leave the rental sector. But that would imply joined up government thinking.
In the long run, the available housing stock isn’t changing and most rental properties are unlikely to be repurposed. That’s slim pickings but it’s the way I think they’re thinking.
To avoid getting into too much agreement, I still think it has been for too long an easy grift
.Do you have the same thoughts about say food retail etc?
98elise said:
NRS said:
One of the issues not really talked about directly is if landlords are expecting above inflation returns close to or equal to other investments to make it worthwhile (say 6% a year or so) that is then paid for by others, and typically by those with less money and often more towards the young who haven’t built savings. Those people paying rent and needing to cover those returns for the landlord means it becomes far harder to save up a deposit, because of the increases that keep happening.
Who says we are expecting above inflation returns?NRS said:
It's a somewhat strange investment if you just aim to break even and tie up lots of money in it. Particularly considering the amount of extra work and lack of liquidity compared to most other investment opportunities.
Sometimes it’s not about keeping up with inflation, but losing as little to inflation as possible. NRS said:
98elise said:
NRS said:
One of the issues not really talked about directly is if landlords are expecting above inflation returns close to or equal to other investments to make it worthwhile (say 6% a year or so) that is then paid for by others, and typically by those with less money and often more towards the young who haven’t built savings. Those people paying rent and needing to cover those returns for the landlord means it becomes far harder to save up a deposit, because of the increases that keep happening.
Who says we are expecting above inflation returns?I would agree there are better investment opportunities, even back then. I'm 50/50 property vs stocks and my stocks have done better over the same time.
The main advantage of property is it was a regular income, reasonably predictable, and not particularly volatile.
These days yields are lower, interest is higher, taxes are higher, and risk is higher. I can (and do) beat BTL with a few simple trades in ftse 100 shares.
98elise said:
I'm 50/50 property vs stocks
Prudent diversification IMO.The side of BTL I've struggled with, and which undoubtedly caused the government to step in with higher taxes, was Mr & Mrs Smith scraping together a handful of cash and setting off for the sunlit uplands of BTL with mortgage (1% ?) up to the ears and tax relief to match.
Having said that, I've always been surprised Mr & Mrs Smith weren't more attracted to getting themselves a nicer main home that would appreciate completely free from CGT rather than having to faff about with tenants.
So much of this stuff loops back to the insanity of central banks ploughing on with absurdly low interest rates long after the 2008 financial crisis had moved into the past tense. Sheep then; sheep now.
Panamax said:
98elise said:
I'm 50/50 property vs stocks
Prudent diversification IMO.The side of BTL I've struggled with, and which undoubtedly caused the government to step in with higher taxes, was Mr & Mrs Smith scraping together a handful of cash and setting off for the sunlit uplands of BTL with mortgage (1% ?) up to the ears and tax relief to match.
Having said that, I've always been surprised Mr & Mrs Smith weren't more attracted to getting themselves a nicer main home that would appreciate completely free from CGT rather than having to faff about with tenants.
So much of this stuff loops back to the insanity of central banks ploughing on with absurdly low interest rates long after the 2008 financial crisis had moved into the past tense. Sheep then; sheep now.
You could borrow at 3% and let at 6-7% so a mortgage was leveraging your cash deposit. Actual returns were 10%+. Property is easy to understand so Mr & Mrs Smith didn't feel it was a risk.
The government "stepped in" because it was that weeks bogeyman. If it was a real effort to change the rental sector then it would have been applied across all Landlords, and all tax bands. The reality is its resulted in higher rents, and further rises are inevitable.
The profitable side of BTL now is AirBnB, HMO, student accommodation or deprived areas. Decent family accommodation in nice areas isn't profitable. Cash will give you the same return with no expenses, no risk, and no tax (in ISA's).
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