Has anyone’s Stock and shares ISA done worse?

[thepeoplespal]

jules_s said:

An old thread I now (may well be newer - couldn't find one)

I took some financial advice last year, at cost, and I now have lost 5.5% (inc fees) on the investment over the last 12 months

Spoke to the FA this morning: - your ISAs are doing great!

ffs - I know it's been a ste year, but really? The FA is ploughing the old 'we are all in the same boat' line but i'm not buying that (yet)

Looking at the portfolio (hate that word) he's offered no advice/moved anything in the last 12 months

Any advice from the PH masses please? Medium risk was the request

TIA

Shares are at a minimum a 5 to 10 year investment, we've had a lot of volatility (a 5.5% loss really is nothing, you can get that in a dayà) and If you are drip feeding in money every month you will be buying your shares on the dip. That should make future increases compound up.

It really sounds as if stocks and shares might not be for you, as given the financial climate it doesn't sound a bad performance, so why would you chop and change your portfolio of presumably trackers.

No one likes to be underwater on an investment but there is a reason it is always talked about as a long term investment, as short term volatility scares people into chopping and changing when longer term it would have been better to choose well first and stick with your choice, unless there are fundamental market changes, that is.

[DaveA8]

jules_s said:

An old thread I now (may well be newer - couldn't find one)

I took some financial advice last year, at cost, and I now have lost 5.5% (inc fees) on the investment over the last 12 months

Spoke to the FA this morning: - your ISAs are doing great!

ffs - I know it's been a ste year, but really? The FA is ploughing the old 'we are all in the same boat' line but i'm not buying that (yet)

Looking at the portfolio (hate that word) he's offered no advice/moved anything in the last 12 months

Any advice from the PH masses please? Medium risk was the request

TIA

The problem is no one can offer you useful advice as we don’t know what you hold, at what price it was bought, how diversified it is.
I am actually sympathetic to you because FA’s like other professionals come in all shapes and abilities.
Having said the above, if one assumes that like most advisors they don’t stick their necks out too far, 5.5% is not fatal, yet but it could be market volatility or it could be the tip of an iceberg.
The only way to get some understanding is to know precisely what you own and at what price
The notion that stocks all go up or all come back is a fallacy, the Market over the longer term has always gone up but the constituents change hence the different performance of individual stocks.
A very well respected investor identified volatility versus permanent loss of capital, obviously volatility is uncomfortable but to be expected
What you need to do is understand from the FA which it is, the problem is at the moment you’re keeping a dog but barking yourself, the FA should do more to reassure you on this matter but I guess they’re selling a product bought in and have little understanding of it also.
If that’s the case, it’s a big red flag

[BoRED S2upid]

jules_s said:

An old thread I now (may well be newer - couldn't find one)

I took some financial advice last year, at cost, and I now have lost 5.5% (inc fees) on the investment over the last 12 months

Spoke to the FA this morning: - your ISAs are doing great!

ffs - I know it's been a ste year, but really? The FA is ploughing the old 'we are all in the same boat' line but i'm not buying that (yet)

Looking at the portfolio (hate that word) he's offered no advice/moved anything in the last 12 months

Any advice from the PH masses please? Medium risk was the request

TIA

Are you paying him a monthly / yearly fee? Are you getting value for money? Could you manage it on your own?

If you bought 12 months ago you would have lost a lot more than 5.5% initially.

[bitchstewie]

What's the funds?

Lots of perfectly good investments have lost money the last 12 months.

You can't and won't win every stage of the race.

[Jon39]

AnotherUsername said:

Just wondering if a anyone’s ISA (stocks and shares) has done worse than my own? Grown a whopping 3% over 5 years!

I’m sure banks would have paid more! All dividends earned got erased beginning of 2020, most may never recover.

Your period of measurement of course includes the pandemic.
You need to compare your 3% with a suitable benchmark (FTSE 100, or whatever appropriate) to see how you really did.

If way behind, then your portfolio composition is probably not as good as it should be.

LeoSayer said:

Up 45% since 2016 thanks to global equity funds.

I just happened to notice your post Leo, because it was on the same page (20th March 2021).

How did you do during the 2022 calendar year ?
2022 of course being quite a difficult year for global markets.

Unusually the UK market survived 2022, probably because the fundamental valuations were fairly modest at the start of the year.
UK market investors did therefore have a chance of a positive outcome.

Edited by Jon39 on Friday 10th March 09:46

[dasbimmerowner]

Mine is down about 5% over 5 years. I'm in for the long haul though, so there will be some ups and downs along the way.

[jules_s]

thepeoplespal said:

It really sounds as if stocks and shares might not be for you, as given the financial climate it doesn't sound a bad performance, so why would you chop and change your portfolio of presumably trackers.

I don't like to post and run from a thread - so I'll answer that yes, I guess I'm not.

A 5.8%(ish) loss in the first year (for me) was/is too much of a hit to take, and looking at the fees/similar loss/inflation over the next 12 months just tipped me over so I've just cancelled the whole investment and taken the loss on the chin.

Yes, the fees would have been less in YR2 but quite frankly I dont have any confidence the gains in the next 2-3-4-5 years would offset the initial loss. I've looked at the initial forecasts on the portfolio(s) and the current balance/status is so far negative of their worst case scenario it makes my eyes water..

So i'm down. I'll live with it. If I'd just simply dumped the money in a chase account I'd be quite a bit +

I'm actually looking forward to the conversation with my FA when he gets told ive disconnected him from the account so he cant milk another percentage given my losses.

Meh.

dasbimmerowner said:

Mine is down about 5% over 5 years. I'm in for the long haul though, so there will be some ups and downs along the way.

Yep. you make your choices - but I'd reconsider that tbh in the short term

Edited by jules_s on Saturday 11th March 01:40

[xeny]

dasbimmerowner said:

Mine is down about 5% over 5 years. I'm in for the long haul though, so there will be some ups and downs along the way.

As in you put a lump sum in 5 years ago, and it has made a loss of 5%? That's insane, what is it invested in, or is the fee structure terrible?

[xeny]

jules_s said:

A 5.8%(ish) loss in the first year (for me) was/is too much of a hit to take, and looking at the fees/similar loss/inflation over the next 12 months just tipped me over so I've just cancelled the whole investment and taken the loss on the chin.

Yes, the fees would have been less in YR2 but quite frankly I dont have any confidence the gains in the next 2-3-4-5 years would offset the initial loss. I've looked at the initial forecasts on the portfolio(s) and the current balance/status is so far negative of their worst case scenario it makes my eyes water..

5.8% loss in one year for shares is the nature of the beast. If that is far worse than the worst case scenario you were shown, what was that worst case scenario, 0% growth or something ludicrous?

[Jon39]

jules_s said:

thepeoplespal said:

It really sounds as if stocks and shares might not be for you, as given the financial climate it doesn't sound a bad performance, so why would you chop and change your portfolio of presumably trackers.

I don't like to post and run from a thread - so I'll answer that yes, I guess I'm not.

A 5.8%(ish) loss in the first year (for me) was/is too much of a hit to take, and looking at the fees/similar loss/inflation over the next 12 months just tipped me over so I've just cancelled the whole investment and taken the loss on the chin.

Yes, the fees would have been less in YR2 but quite frankly I dont have any confidence the gains in the next 2-3-4-5 years would offset the initial loss. I've looked at the initial forecasts on the portfolio(s) and the current balance/status is so far negative of their worst case scenario it makes my eyes water..

So i'm down. I'll live with it. If I'd just simply dumped the money in a chase account I'd be quite a bit +

I'm actually looking forward to the conversation with my FA when he gets told ive disconnected him from the account so he cant milk another percentage given my losses.

Meh.

dasbimmerowner said:

Mine is down about 5% over 5 years. I'm in for the long haul though, so there will be some ups and downs along the way.

Yep. you make your choices - but I'd reconsider that tbh in the short term

During difficult stock market periods (or indeed all the time, because we never know when market falls will occur) you need defensive businesses amongst your holdings.
Firms providing essential goods or services, for which there is continuing strong demand during all stages of economic cycles.
You can often see with such companies, days when markets fall, their share prices rise, or fall less of a percentage than the market.
Known as non cyclicals. In reality, less cyclical than others.

I am not into funds or trackers, so don't know whether carefully structured defensive funds are on sale.
A 5.8% annual fall is nothing in the long-term, but if constantly trailing annual market averages, then the investment construction is wrong.

People can feel safe holding cash or cash equivalents, but it is an asset guaranteed to lose you money, although it does not have the same volatility as other assets. Always holding some cash though, is of course essential for life.

If your S&S ISA fees have a maximumum cap of say £40 / £50 pa., then that is a fair cost and should not have much overall long-term effect on your growing investment. The ISA provider obviously has work to do. Some ISA providers do take the Mickey though, one example is Barclays. They don't have any cap to their fees, so instead of paying £3.50 monthly, you can find yourself paying them £250 annually.

So far this year, increasing dividends seems to be a theme. Before the envy protesters pick that one up, it follows the sharp dividend reductions and cancellations during the pandemic. After ten weeks this year, dividends are now 5% higher than the 1st January 2023 total. As we all know, equity values move up and down all the time, but to give you a feeling of percentage movements, on 3 March 2023 (year to date), four holdings had increased by more than 20% (Banco Santanter +35.2%) and at the bottom of the league table, British American Tobacco -4.2%. Can accept that though, because BAT ended last year up 20% (plus dividends).

It is a long-term game, but being patient is not always easy, especially when experiencing losses.

[simon800]

jules_s said:

An old thread I now (may well be newer - couldn't find one)

I took some financial advice last year, at cost, and I now have lost 5.5% (inc fees) on the investment over the last 12 months

Spoke to the FA this morning: - your ISAs are doing great!

ffs - I know it's been a ste year, but really? The FA is ploughing the old 'we are all in the same boat' line but i'm not buying that (yet)

Looking at the portfolio (hate that word) he's offered no advice/moved anything in the last 12 months

Any advice from the PH masses please? Medium risk was the request

TIA

That sounds about right - if we consider 60/40 stocks/bonds to be medium risk then Vanguard LifeStrategy 60 is down 3.2% in a year

[thepeoplespal]

jules_s said:

thepeoplespal said:

It really sounds as if stocks and shares might not be for you, as given the financial climate it doesn't sound a bad performance, so why would you chop and change your portfolio of presumably trackers.

I don't like to post and run from a thread - so I'll answer that yes, I guess I'm not.

A 5.8%(ish) loss in the first year (for me) was/is too much of a hit to take, and looking at the fees/similar loss/inflation over the next 12 months just tipped me over so I've just cancelled the whole investment and taken the loss on the chin.

Yes, the fees would have been less in YR2 but quite frankly I dont have any confidence the gains in the next 2-3-4-5 years would offset the initial loss. I've looked at the initial forecasts on the portfolio(s) and the current balance/status is so far negative of their worst case scenario it makes my eyes water..

So i'm down. I'll live with it. If I'd just simply dumped the money in a chase account I'd be quite a bit +

I'm actually looking forward to the conversation with my FA when he gets told ive disconnected him from the account so he cant milk another percentage given my losses.

Meh.

dasbimmerowner said:

Mine is down about 5% over 5 years. I'm in for the long haul though, so there will be some ups and downs along the way.

Yep. you make your choices - but I'd reconsider that tbh in the short term

Edited by jules_s on Saturday 11th March 01:40

It would be interesting to see how this pans out in 10 years which is really the timescales to invest in stocks and shares and where making money should come to fruition.

Surprised you cashed out after a year, at a guess your risk profile was probably low rather than medium given the figures you've quoted, so your FA should have been more attuned to that.

If you ever reconsider dipping your toes in again, this guy James Shack on the tube https://youtu.be/YRG09ou9q1E does a good job of explaining lots of things we don't know about, especially our mentality on risk (I like his monkey brain explanation), He does like his S&P500 though, which consistent though it is on returns over a 10 year period, doesn't really show the bonkers volatility of the Pound vs. Dollar at times.


.

[Jon39]

thepeoplespal said:

... doesn't really show the bonkers volatility of the Pound vs. Dollar at times.

Remember the strengthening of the Dollar (or weakening of the Pound) can sometimes be your friend, for UK domiciled business investments.

Some examples;

Shell ........ dividend = +44% ...... payment in GBP = +63%.
HSBC ......................... +29% ...................................... +54%.
BP .............................. +10% ....................................... +31%
Shell ........................... + 4% ....................................... +14%
BP .............................. +10% ....................................... +20%

[DaveA8]

There is a product that Blackrock are doing, from 1.75 to 5.25%, no idea of the details as it’s not my thing, clearly depends on length of time and amounts
According to the email 100% guaranteed
Lets face it, if Blacktock couldn’t repay then the financial system has collapsed and everything else will have gone also.

[egor110]

Any more details on that ?

Just checked and it's not one of there cash funds or index trackers.

I'd be amazed if they guarantee anything as in the small print is the warning that the value of your investments could fall as well as rise.

[bitchstewie]

FTSE All Cap is down almost 5% this week.

It's not pleasant but it's normal.

[DaveA8]

egor110 said:

Any more details on that ?

Just checked and it's not one of there cash funds or index trackers.

I'd be amazed if they guarantee anything as in the small print is the warning that the value of your investments could fall as well as rise.

Im out and I saw it on my desktop last week, I’ll see if I can recover it

[Jon39]

bhstewie said:

FTSE All Cap is down almost 5% this week.

It's not pleasant, but it's normal.

I often learn new things on here.
FTSE All Cap - I had never heard of that before.

My attention centered on 'down almost 5% this week'.
In my own little world, I had a lower figure in mind. Minus 2.58% (FTSE All Share Index).
Although up YTD, I am trailing the Index.
Holding non-cyclicals, often means the down weeks can result in some progress relative to index. That did happen again this week, with minus 1.05%.


In 2008, the Northern Rock bank collapse was a prelude to the global financial crisis.
In 2023, the Silcon Valley Bank collapse .........................................................................

We shall see. Hope not.
It is all very well for us to say, "An opportunity to buy good businesses at cheap prices", but there are so many people who really suffer during financial crashes.

Edited by Jon39 on Sunday 12th March 09:14

[bitchstewie]

FTSE All Share Index is just the UK.

FTSE Global All Cap is literally the entire world so of course the US is around 60% of the fund.

https://www.vanguardinvestor.co.uk/investments/van...

[Jon39]

bhstewie said:

FTSE All Share Index is just the UK.

FTSE Global All Cap is literally the entire world so of course the US is around 60% of the fund.

https://www.vanguardinvestor.co.uk/investments/van...

Thank you (can I call you Stewart?)
Yes, I did look up the definition of the Index.

My guess would therefore be, that the Vanguard FTSE Global All Cap fund might not have enjoyed a good 2022.
UK escaped those declines.
GAC probably beat me in some previous years though, because I think the US market had a boom, particularly FAANG.

I made a big mistake regarding Apple.
Did not believe people would pay £300 for a music player, when a generic mp3 player doing the same job (and with ability to copy to other devices) only cost at that time £20.

Must have applied too much logic. Did not envisage the, 'Look at my Apple' craze.
Probably lost millions following that mistake.