Has anyone’s Stock and shares ISA done worse?
Discussion
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hstewie said:
hstewie said:croyde said:
Pre Covid, my ISAs were showing a healthy 12 percent return over the years I had had them.
One fund had doubled.
Then 2020 happened.
A month ago, things were looking good as in that they had finally got close to the value I had in 2019, then that bloody bank went tits up.
Now I'm already back to just after the first lockdown value.
At least I'm still in profit but the annual growth is now abysmal.
I feel sorry for anyone who bought into ISAs in 2019.
What were the funds?One fund had doubled.
Then 2020 happened.
A month ago, things were looking good as in that they had finally got close to the value I had in 2019, then that bloody bank went tits up.
Now I'm already back to just after the first lockdown value.
At least I'm still in profit but the annual growth is now abysmal.
I feel sorry for anyone who bought into ISAs in 2019.
If you'd put money in a global tracker in March 2019 you'd be around 40% up.
If you'd put money in LifeStrategy 60 in March 2019 you'd be around 20% up.
We've been through Covid and bonds have been absolutely battered by interest rate rises.
Yet you'd still be up.
I don't want to belittle 5% or 8% losses but these are investments they are intended to be for the long term and they can go down as well as up.
As said, great returns pre Covid, yes! my biggest is in Chinese businesses thus their Lockdowns halved my profit at a stroke.
Things were looking up when they finally opened up but then this banks business.
I can't think right now what my other funds are apart from Fundsmith.
Again, great performance up to 2020, I was 40 percent up but now hovering at 20 percent.
So at least still in the green.
Respectfully isn't this a case of piling into something that was great when the music was playing and not being prepared for what might happen when the music stops?
Like I said on another thread been there done that with SMT and got out at 1400p and thought I'd done badly but look at it now
Nothing helps you realise what the right thing to do is like losing real money.
Fundsmith wouldn't concern me if you're in it for the long term but it's a bet on certain types of business and Terry Smith himself would tell you (literally) that nobody ever won the Tour de France by winning every stage
Like I said on another thread been there done that with SMT and got out at 1400p and thought I'd done badly but look at it now
Nothing helps you realise what the right thing to do is like losing real money.
Fundsmith wouldn't concern me if you're in it for the long term but it's a bet on certain types of business and Terry Smith himself would tell you (literally) that nobody ever won the Tour de France by winning every stage
jules_s said:
Terminated the investments last week 5.5% loss - with a letter which confirmed it, and a value to be paid back.
Money paid back today - 8.5% loss. In 12 months.
Never. Ever. will I do this again (clearly)
Ridiculous.Money paid back today - 8.5% loss. In 12 months.
Never. Ever. will I do this again (clearly)
You've got to allow time for prices to rise and fall not panic after a year .
jules_s said:
Terminated the investments last week 5.5% loss - with a letter which confirmed it, and a value to be paid back.
Money paid back today - 8.5% loss. In 12 months.
Never. Ever. will I do this again (clearly)
Buy high, sell low? If you want fast returns Cheltenham is only a tweed jacket away.Money paid back today - 8.5% loss. In 12 months.
Never. Ever. will I do this again (clearly)
xeny said:
Yes and no. You've got a chance of a recovery in the fund, and maybe some outperformance as inflation works its way through the balance sheets of the companies in the fund. The DB pension has lost that 7.5% or so forever
It's the "chance" bit I don't like. It's gambling. Maybe it'll go up. Or down. Or stay the same. Who knows, but people are required to take a chance.
Sheepshanks said:
It's the "chance" bit I don't like. It's gambling. Maybe it'll go up. Or down. Or stay the same.
Who knows, but people are required to take a chance.
What's the alternative though ?Who knows, but people are required to take a chance.
The stock market has decades of evidence that given enough time it'll make you money .
On the flip side you get 4% in savings currently or stick it in premium bonds and possibly win a prize
Sheepshanks said:
It's the "chance" bit I don't like. It's gambling. Maybe it'll go up. Or down. Or stay the same.
Who knows, but people are required to take a chance.
Waaayyy OT but I remember once getting into a debate with a friend on whether investing is gambling. I think it is as you’re not in charge of the outcome. I know all about expected gain etc but that’s irrelevant.Who knows, but people are required to take a chance.
The problem for my friend was that he’s ultra religious and gambling is a sin but investing is a convenient workaround. He still had no curtains and no telly for whatever stupid reason but he was heavily invested in the stock market as that’s not gambling apparently.
For the avoidance of doubt I do know the difference between investing and speculating but that wasn’t a consideration.
I was all cash until a while ago, then started again dripping into various funds. Obviously all down massively and I have no control or foresight.
My own business I started about a year ago….. things are looking pretty good so far. If I were to sell now I’d still be 250k down but lots of upfront costs unfortunately.
My own business I started about a year ago….. things are looking pretty good so far. If I were to sell now I’d still be 250k down but lots of upfront costs unfortunately.
jules_s said:
Terminated the investments last week 5.5% loss - with a letter which confirmed it, and a value to be paid back.
Money paid back today - 8.5% loss. In 12 months.
Never. Ever. will I do this again (clearly)
Sorry to hear this and arguably given the market this week you may have saved yourself some more grief. Money paid back today - 8.5% loss. In 12 months.
Never. Ever. will I do this again (clearly)
What have you put your money into instead ?
No point in rubbing it in but 1 year SM investment was never going to be the answer and I hope your FA also made that clear pre your investing.
Until you crystallised your loss of course you hadn’t really lost a penny.
Best of luck this time.
Sheepshanks said:
It's the "chance" bit I don't like. It's gambling. Maybe it'll go up. Or down. Or stay the same.
Who knows, but people are required to take a chance.
The DB scheme reduces but doesn't remove the "chance" aspect when you look at the real inflation adjusted outcome, and when I look at the level of employer & employee contributions required to remove the nominal risk, it's damned expensive.Who knows, but people are required to take a chance.
Those employer contributions (something like 20%) mean that overall the salary is less than it might be if the employer offered a DC scheme, and of course there's no scope for a "great" outcome, like the post here a few years ago where someone was complaining they were going to run out of LTA - it turned out whoever was running the company DC scheme had had it in Fundsmith since inception....
jules_s said:
Terminated the investments last week 5.5% loss - with a letter which confirmed it, and a value to be paid back.
Money paid back today - 8.5% loss. In 12 months.
Never. Ever. will I do this again (clearly)
Money paid back today - 8.5% loss. In 12 months.
Never. Ever. will I do this again (clearly)
Oh dear, I am sorry to read that, but an all too frequent tale unfortunately.
Temperament is crucial.
It did not take a genius to make money in 2022, just strict adherence to the rules of serious equity investing.
Luck certainly helps occasionally, but a great deal does involve, logical and common sense thinking. Give it two or three decades and the result can be a life free of all money worries. Seems a long time to wait, but is it really ? Many humans are fortunate enough to live for more than seven decades.
The best advice is to learn how to invest from the Master.
When someone makes $108 billion by investing during their lifetime and are willing to teach others without having any thought about a reward, then grab the opportunity.
https://bookdown.org/junghoonshin/guide-to-wise-in...
One of his most thought provoking quotes is;
“In the 20th century, the United States endured two world wars and other traumatic and expensive military conflicts; the Depression; a dozen or so recessions and financial panics; oil shocks; a flu epidemic; and the resignation of a disgraced president. Yet the Dow rose from 66 to 11,497.”
In that case, why didn't everyone make a fortune?
The answer, most of the losers kept dipping in and out of the market, not remaining invested for the long-term.
A few others;
“Never invest in a business you cannot understand.”
“Risk comes from not knowing what you’re doing.”
“The stock market is a device for transferring money from the impatient to the patient.”
“If you aren’t willing to own a stock for ten years, don’t even think about owning it for 'ten minutes'.”
“All there is to investing is picking good stocks at good times and staying with them as long as they remain good companies.”
“Do not take yearly results too seriously. Instead, focus on four or five-year averages.”
“The most important quality for an investor is temperament, not intellect. You need a temperament that neither derives great pleasure from being with the crowd, nor against the crowd.”
“Don’t get caught up with what other people are doing. Being a contrarian isn’t the key, but being a crowd follower isn’t either. You need to detach yourself emotionally.”
The first priority for a financial adviser, is obviously to earn a living,
Helping you trying to make a fortune, is a secondary consideration.
Edited by Jon39 on Saturday 18th March 15:53
I opened an ISA April 20 and sold everything November last year to transfer into a cash ISA.
Somehow ended 40% up. I base that more down to luck than any similarities to Warren Buffets trading strategies.
Just to add some reality I have another account that I opened April 21 and I’m currently down 5%, last week didn’t help.
Somehow ended 40% up. I base that more down to luck than any similarities to Warren Buffets trading strategies.
Just to add some reality I have another account that I opened April 21 and I’m currently down 5%, last week didn’t help.
skircoatshed said:
I opened an ISA April 20 and sold everything November last year to transfer into a cash ISA.
Somehow ended 40% up. I base that more down to luck than any similarities to Warren Buffets trading strategies.
Just to add some reality I have another account that I opened April 21 and I’m currently down 5%, last week didn’t help.
I opened an ISA in Oct 2020, and at the start off the year was 38% up, now 20.53%. Will be topping up in April, as it's longterm anyway. Had some good div payments as well. Somehow ended 40% up. I base that more down to luck than any similarities to Warren Buffets trading strategies.
Just to add some reality I have another account that I opened April 21 and I’m currently down 5%, last week didn’t help.
skircoatshed said:
I opened an ISA April 20 and sold everything November last year to transfer into a cash ISA.
Somehow ended 40% up. I base that more down to luck than any similarities to Warren Buffets trading strategies.
Somehow ended 40% up. I base that more down to luck than any similarities to Warren Buffets trading strategies.
On the contrary, you did exactly what Warren Buffet believes in.
“Be Fearful When Others Are Greedy and Greedy When Others Are Fearful.”
Your action might have been luck, but you did what serious investors were doing at that time.
The pandemic frightened investors, share prices fell sharply and suddenly there were good businesses available at very attractive prices. Low P/Es and high yields.
For the brave, when most were panic selling, it was exactly the right time to be buying.
It is easier to spot lows, than highs.
Well done. Most are too scared at such times, which are quite rare occasions. 1987; 2003; 2009; 2020.
Earl of Hazzard said:
I opened an ISA in Oct 2020, and at the start off the year was 38% up, now 20.53%. Will be topping up in April, as it's longterm anyway. Had some good div payments as well.
May I make a suggestion ?
Record your percentage changes on a calendar year basis.
Choose a benchmark (FTSE 100, or whatever is appropriate to you), then you have a comparison to monitor your own progress.
The indices generally don't include dividends, but you can find those figures at year ends.
Stella Tortoise said:
Amateurs.
I had a pension invested in Neil 'bd' Woodford.
I had a pension invested in Neil 'b
d' Woodford.Oh dear, sorry to hear that.
It was all most peculiar.
When NW was employed by (was it Perpetual?) he followed traditional prudent investment principles and invested in mature, major profitable businesses. His results were very good.
After starting his own investment firm, customers probably understandably assumed, that he would continue with the same strategy.
We later heard that he was (gambling) putting client money into tiny businesses and start-ups.
A completely different (high risk) strategy.
Certain 'platforms' continued to recommend the NW funds (you know why) long after trouble was anticipated. Disgraceful.
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