USA Gratuity And/Or Tip?

[Panamax]

markiii said:

I'll eat where I choose,

Where do you like to go?

[markiii]

Very few places these days, most dissapoint.

[Alickadoo]

unrepentant said:

eldar said:

markiii said:

definately no tip if I'm ordering on an app

Yup, I'm not going to tip a bloody app.

Please stay home then.

The server may only be getting $2.19 per hour before tips, regardless of how the food is ordered and if you're using an app it's not fine dining so they are going to be on the bottom end of the scale.

In that case the server should stay at home too.

[yellowbentines]

Going right back to the OP in this thread, why don't the restaurants just add 15%/18% (whatever is the minimum expected for having someone with a pulse transport food from kitchen to table) to every bill automatically as a standard gratuity, going directly to staff, then allow diners to actually 'tip' extra 5%/10% or whatever for great service - whatever that entails.

Avoids the merry dance, servers and diners get what they want.

I dont believe by adding it on as standard that service would be far worse, if it was then Im sure diners wouldn't be shy in asking to speak to the manager.

[havoc]

yellowbentines said:

Going right back to the OP in this thread, why don't the restaurants just add 15%/18% (whatever is the minimum expected for having someone with a pulse transport food from kitchen to table) to every bill automatically as a standard gratuity, going directly to staff, then allow diners to actually 'tip' extra 5%/10% or whatever for great service - whatever that entails.

Avoids the merry dance, servers and diners get what they want.

I dont believe by adding it on as standard that service would be far worse, if it was then Im sure diners wouldn't be shy in asking to speak to the manager.

Because then unscrupulous restaurant owners keep some/all of it for themselves, and service DOES drop. Plus what you're proposing is ~25% service charge/tip, which is an utter joke, even for the USA.

[C5_Steve]

unrepentant said:

It's got nothing to do with the tightness of the employer.

It's to do with American culture. If you're in any kind of sales position you are responsible for making your own income. Servers get $2.19 per hour (or whatever the tipped minimum is in their state) but their actual income comes from their performance. That's the American way. Poll servers and ask if they'd rather have a salary and no tips and they'll tell you hell no. The consumer understands how the system works.

It's the same as the people who sell you a house or a car or a piece of furniture or a new suit. Nobody gives them a salary, they are paid based on performance. It's the American way, you work hard and make your own income. It's starting to change a little in some industries because millennials can't cope with the concept of not having a guaranteed income but for seasoned sales people, like seasoned servers, the current system works much better for them.

Of course there's also a different attitude towards sales people here, including servers..........

I feel like you are missing something here.

Yes, servers prefer to be tipped because really good ones, the ones who provide exceptional service even in the most basic of places, clear very decent money in tips (which aren't taxed of course). This is all fine and dandy, or was, whilst prices remained low and only good service was rewarded.

Now however, you've seen restaurants increase their prices to deal with inflation and other costs whilst not increasing what should be their biggest cost; staff wages. They're now relying on customers to subsidise their employee's income to a basic income. Wait staff have all seen their income reduced in real terms as customers are having to pay more for the food/drinks they consume with no change in the level of service and in many cases bang average service across the board.

Couple this with the introduction of apps etc which reduce business costs and staff interactions there absolutely should be a reduction in tip level alongside an increase in basic pay. Business now require less staff if they bring in a level of automation, that saving should be translated into better base pay. Tipping in Starbucks for the person doing they're literal job should not be a thing.

You're arguing it's millennials' fault but it really isn't, it's just that as generations change so does society. I'd assume you're from an older generation than millennials because millennials currently make up the majority of the workforce so they do represent the majority. People now have less disposable income across the board and are less likely to tip for basic services. The jobs you list as not having a "salary", guess what, in every other country in the world they're paid one. The US is the outlier here now unfortunately not the norm and should look to the rest of the world to change. Whilst it used to be one of the leaders in service and sales it's now unfortunately been left behind by many other countries who do it better and reward their staff correctly.

[bad company]

C5_Steve said:

Tipping in Starbucks for the person doing their literal job should not be a thing.

It generally isn’t, there’s a tip box but most ignore it. What you have to watch is the contactless/tap device which often defaults to include a tip. Happened to me once and I made them go to the trouble of reversing the ‘tip’.

[Muzzer79]

unrepentant said:

markiii said:

I'll eat where I choose, I'm not subsidising the tightness of the employer

It's got nothing to do with the tightness of the employer.

It's to do with American culture. If you're in any kind of sales position you are responsible for making your own income. Servers get $2.19 per hour (or whatever the tipped minimum is in their state) but their actual income comes from their performance. That's the American way. Poll servers and ask if they'd rather have a salary and no tips and they'll tell you hell no. The consumer understands how the system works.

It's the same as the people who sell you a house or a car or a piece of furniture or a new suit. Nobody gives them a salary, they are paid based on performance. It's the American way, you work hard and make your own income. It's starting to change a little in some industries because millennials can't cope with the concept of not having a guaranteed income but for seasoned sales people, like seasoned servers, the current system works much better for them.

Of course there's also a different attitude towards sales people here, including servers..........

I think the above is clear. However, a crucial point is that if the employer is going to automate part of the process, then that will naturally affect the ability of the server to work hard and therefore give a good performance.

That's not the fault of a consumer.

If you break down the server's function - it includes:

Greet customer
Highlight specials/etc
Take order
Check periodically on customer's experience
Bring food/drink
Clear used crockery/cutlery/glassware
Take payment

For performing those functions well, the server receives a tip

If you automate and therefore remove some of those functions then the tip will inevitably reduce. The more you remove, then.........

[yellowbentines]

bad company said:

C5_Steve said:

Tipping in Starbucks for the person doing their literal job should not be a thing.

It generally isn’t, there’s a tip box but most ignore it. What you have to watch is the contactless/tap device which often defaults to include a tip. Happened to me once and I made them go to the trouble of reversing the ‘tip’.

'Paying by card sir, I'm just gonna flip the pad around and it's gonna ask you a few questions....'

with the 'custom tip' option in a tiny little box in the corner below the big 18%, 20%, 22% icons

ETA this isn't just limited to the US of course, it seems to be widespread across the UK too.

Edited by yellowbentines on Friday 3rd May 12:08

[dunkind]

Muzzer79 said:

If you break down the server's function - it includes:

Greet customer
Highlight specials/etc
Take order
Check periodically on customer's experience
Bring food/drink
Clear used crockery/cutlery/glassware
Take payment

For performing those functions well, the server receives a tip.

If you automate and therefore remove some of those functions then the tip will inevitably reduce. The more you remove, then.........

Personally I would expect that as standard and wouldn’t even consider leaving any money on top of what is indicated on the menu.
I’ve never been to America, there is nothing there of any interest for me. I detest the tipping culture and I’d probably stab one of them to death in a restaurant for eating with only a fork, with a baseball hat on, talking with food their mouth and being loud. That’s another issue though, for me and my psychiatrist.

[paulguitar]

dunkind said:

Personally I would expect that as standard and wouldn’t even consider leaving any money on top of what is indicated on the menu.
I’ve never been to America, there is nothing there of any interest for me. I detest the tipping culture and I’d probably stab one of them to death in a restaurant for eating with only a fork, with a baseball hat on, talking with food their mouth and being loud. That’s another issue though, for me and my psychiatrist.

It might be best if you don't travel anywhere overseas.

Or leave your house.

[havoc]

bad company said:

It generally isn’t, there’s a tip box but most ignore it. What you have to watch is the contactless/tap device which often defaults to include a tip. Happened to me once and I made them go to the trouble of reversing the ‘tip’.

I got stung in London where I didn't read the receipt at a cafe properly (missed they'd added a Service Charge), and then the contactless device asked if I wanted to include a tip, so I did.

Didn't bother bleating about it afterwards - my mistake for not checking - but I'm not going back if they're actively trying to rip customers off like that.

[psi310398]

dunkind said:

Muzzer79 said:

If you break down the server's function - it includes:

Greet customer
Highlight specials/etc
Take order
Check periodically on customer's experience
Bring food/drink
Clear used crockery/cutlery/glassware
Take payment

For performing those functions well, the server receives a tip.

If you automate and therefore remove some of those functions then the tip will inevitably reduce. The more you remove, then.........

Personally I would expect that as standard and wouldn’t even consider leaving any money on top of what is indicated on the menu.

I was going to point out that even in Paris waiters understand these tasks to be core to their job description and generally deign to perform them.

The gap between doing them and not doing them is pretty binary. Not doing them warrants no tip but I am at loss to see how one would differentiate between performance to justify a 15, 20 or 25% tip on top of what is now quite an expensive experience in much of the US. But if Americans wish to collude in allowing food outlets etc to rip them off, and stiff them for the costs of running their businesses, it’s their gaff, so their rules.

For me, I now just don’t patronise restaurants much when there, while in the past I’d shrug and think that I’d be paying the wages one way or another. I just don’t see the value for money any more,

Another problem is that the tipping culture also extends to unasked for and unwanted services - I am perfectly capable of parking my own car and carrying my own cases, for example, and resent being often quite aggressively panhandled by people who assume that I have an obligation to use them. Everybody seems to have their hand out.

[yellowbentines]

dunkind said:

Personally I would expect that as standard and wouldn’t even consider leaving any money on top of what is indicated on the menu.
I’ve never been to America, there is nothing there of any interest for me. I detest the tipping culture and I’d probably stab one of them to death in a restaurant for eating with only a fork, with a baseball hat on, talking with food their mouth and being loud. That’s another issue though, for me and my psychiatrist.

You've obviously never witnessed them mix up the special sauce tableside at P.F. Changs, it is quite the spectacle....

[dunkind]

paulguitar said:

It might be best if you don't travel anywhere overseas.

Or leave your house.

Too late Paul. Houses overseas.
As your are familiar with the cruise industry my recent, and only cruise, exposed me to a few too many Americans (Silversea).

[paulguitar]

dunkind said:

paulguitar said:

It might be best if you don't travel anywhere overseas.

Or leave your house.

Too late Paul. Houses overseas.
As your are familiar with the cruise industry my recent, and only cruise, exposed me to a few too many Americans (Silversea).

Some can get a bit wearing but loads of them are great. Mrs Guitar is American.

[wibble cb]

psi310398 said:

dunkind said:

Muzzer79 said:

If you break down the server's function - it includes:

Greet customer
Highlight specials/etc
Take order
Check periodically on customer's experience
Bring food/drink
Clear used crockery/cutlery/glassware
Take payment

For performing those functions well, the server receives a tip.

If you automate and therefore remove some of those functions then the tip will inevitably reduce. The more you remove, then.........

Personally I would expect that as standard and wouldn’t even consider leaving any money on top of what is indicated on the menu.

I was going to point out that even in Paris waiters understand these tasks to be core to their job description and generally deign to perform them.

The gap between doing them and not doing them is pretty binary. Not doing them warrants no tip but I am at loss to see how one would differentiate between performance to justify a 15, 20 or 25% tip on top of what is now quite an expensive experience in much of the US. But if Americans wish to collude in allowing food outlets etc to rip them off, and stiff them for the costs of running their businesses, it’s their gaff, so their rules.

For me, I now just don’t patronise restaurants much when there, while in the past I’d shrug and think that I’d be paying the wages one way or another. I just don’t see the value for money any more,

Another problem is that the tipping culture also extends to unasked for and unwanted services - I am perfectly capable of parking my own car and carrying my own cases, for example, and resent being often quite aggressively panhandled by people who assume that I have an obligation to use them. Everybody seems to have their hand out.

French restaurants in general don’t expect you to tip waiters, as you point out, it’s a core function, I have also found the stereotype of surely French waiters to be incorrect.

[C5_Steve]

bad company said:

It generally isn’t, there’s a tip box but most ignore it. What you have to watch is the contactless/tap device which often defaults to include a tip. Happened to me once and I made them go to the trouble of reversing the ‘tip’.

Yeah, it is, unfortunately, been commonplace in the US for a while and now spreading over here. I had it at a bar a few weeks ago, literally walked to the bar, ordered and when the barman gave me the terminal I had to select a tip! Screen gave you 3 black boxes with 5/10/20 and then the customer tip was light grey writing right at the bottom, deliberately hard to see and not obvious. When you went into that screen you had to select zero.

The irony was it was a Brewdog (yes I know, but it was the closest place) which very recently decided to opt out of paying a living wage in London.....

[LunarOne]

wibble cb said:

French restaurants in general don’t expect you to tip waiters, as you point out, it’s a core function, I have also found the stereotype of surely French waiters to be incorrect.

I spend a lot of time in France as my employer is based there and I am required to visit often. Not that I mind one bit - I love France and took the job because they were French despite not looking for a new job at the time. Company HQ is right in the middle of Paris so I do a lot of all expenses paid dining. I think the stereotype comes more from Paris than from France as a whole. Outside Paris I find waiters are generally very friendly unless overworked and in a tourist hotspot. But in Paris it's much more a case of breaking the ice with the waiter. Being a waiter is considered a proper profession over there, and some of them are proud but fed up with being treated like lackeys. But if you ask them (in French) about their recommendations and treat them as an equal whose opinion you respect, then the attitude usually disappears instantly. Even if you speak very poor French, they appreciate you trying and will accommodate you as best as they can. It's when you're loud, brash and make demands in English without even trying to start in French that you ruffle feathers, and that's why lots of Brits and Americans find French waiters rude.

[psi310398]

LunarOne said:

I spend a lot of time in France as my employer is based there and I am required to visit often. Not that I mind one bit - I love France and took the job because they were French despite not looking for a new job at the time. Company HQ is right in the middle of Paris so I do a lot of all expenses paid dining. I think the stereotype comes more from Paris than from France as a whole. Outside Paris I find waiters are generally very friendly unless overworked and in a tourist hotspot. But in Paris it's much more a case of breaking the ice with the waiter. Being a waiter is considered a proper profession over there, and some of them are proud but fed up with being treated like lackeys. But if you ask them (in French) about their recommendations and treat them as an equal whose opinion you respect, then the attitude usually disappears instantly. Even if you speak very poor French, they appreciate you trying and will accommodate you as best as they can. It's when you're loud, brash and make demands in English without even trying to start in French that you ruffle feathers, and that's why lots of Brits and Americans find French waiters rude.

That might be your experience in Paris. It isn’t mine. I do agree about the rest of France, though.

I speak French well and my wife is bilingual, we have lived in France, and know how not to offend French sensibilities. We’ve frequently had poor service in Paris, which we’ve not received more widely in France.

Anyway, back to the topic!