Private schools, times a changing?
Discussion
cheesejunkie said:
Notreallymeeither said:
My daughters (14 and 12) are coming up to the important years (GCSEs next year for the elder one) so unless something really bad happens to my earning potential there is no way I will be changing their school. This will come at a cost to me (fees are £5k a term each so £30k a year - meaning £6k VAT potentially).
That £500 a month is basically any discretionary spend I have - so the local economy and other areas I spend that discretionary spend on will not benefit by this amount.
It will instead go in to central coffers for use in whatever fantastic way the government decides (which is great, as governments of both colour have been exceptional in how they invest taxpayer money…….)
I am sure sad violins will be playing loudly for me - but I won’t be getting a new bathroom done or going to the local pub or buying any new items in town or getting Indian takeaways etc. Whilst one person won’t have much impact, multiply that impact by however many parents will be in a similar squeezed position (most of them I suspect) and you can see that spending in to the local economy by the slightly higher earners is going to take a nosedive.
The pro trickle down argument.
Not going to get in to an argument - just sharing my thoughts on my personal situation and how I suspect there will be a wider impact. Just my opinion. Feel free to ignore if it’s nonsense. That £500 a month is basically any discretionary spend I have - so the local economy and other areas I spend that discretionary spend on will not benefit by this amount.
It will instead go in to central coffers for use in whatever fantastic way the government decides (which is great, as governments of both colour have been exceptional in how they invest taxpayer money…….)
I am sure sad violins will be playing loudly for me - but I won’t be getting a new bathroom done or going to the local pub or buying any new items in town or getting Indian takeaways etc. Whilst one person won’t have much impact, multiply that impact by however many parents will be in a similar squeezed position (most of them I suspect) and you can see that spending in to the local economy by the slightly higher earners is going to take a nosedive.
The pro trickle down argument.
Edited by Notreallymeeither on Monday 6th May 14:10
Notreallymeeither said:
Not going to get in to an argument - just sharing my thoughts on my personal situation and how I suspect there will be a wider impact. Just my opinion. Feel free to ignore if it’s nonsense.
It’s not nonsense but I do disagree.Edited by Notreallymeeither on Monday 6th May 14:10
I can understand the differences in ideologies. It’s not discretionary you’d spend in the local economy. You’d likely invest it. The money you’re saving on VAT is not keeping industries afloat. It’s a nonsensical notion.
But that’s OT to the core of my earlier points.
The UK has a seriously messed up VAT system when it comes to exceptions. Cake vs biscuit etc. but if you agree with vat you’ll have a hard time explaining why parents should not pay it. Other than on this thread obviously.
I’d also do away with private Ed but not going there and will allow some a breath of thank f
k he’s not going to bang on about that again.cheesejunkie said:
The UK has a seriously messed up VAT system when it comes to exceptions. Cake vs biscuit etc. but if you agree with vat you’ll have a hard time explaining why parents should not pay it. Other than on this thread obviously.
The proposal from Labour relates to certain charities. From there, the impact goes to some parents. The explaining should address why certain charities are where they are. Some say it's for good reasons.cheesejunkie said:
Notreallymeeither said:
Not going to get in to an argument - just sharing my thoughts on my personal situation and how I suspect there will be a wider impact. Just my opinion. Feel free to ignore if it’s nonsense.
It’s not nonsense but I do disagree.Edited by Notreallymeeither on Monday 6th May 14:10
I can understand the differences in ideologies. It’s not discretionary you’d spend in the local economy. You’d likely invest it. The money you’re saving on VAT is not keeping industries afloat. It’s a nonsensical notion.
But that’s OT to the core of my earlier points.
The UK has a seriously messed up VAT system when it comes to exceptions. Cake vs biscuit etc. but if you agree with vat you’ll have a hard time explaining why parents should not pay it. Other than on this thread obviously.
I’d also do away with private Ed but not going there and will allow some a breath of thank f
k he’s not going to bang on about that again.Should there be VAT on university fees as well?Presumably that’s a reasonable next step? I understand private school exemption is because they are charities, and it is that exemption which is being removed. Are universities charities (like private schools)?
Genuine question and not trying to be argumentative - just trying to understand whether I’ll be paying VAT on university fees in 4 years time (if my daughters decide that route). I don’t understand the distinction otherwise.
Notreallymeeither said:
My daughters (14 and 12) are coming up to the important years (GCSEs next year for the elder one) so unless something really bad happens to my earning potential there is no way I will be changing their school. This will come at a cost to me (fees are £5k a term each so £30k a year - meaning £6k VAT potentially).
That £500 a month is basically any discretionary spend I have - so the local economy and other areas I spend that discretionary spend on will not benefit by this amount.
It will instead go in to central coffers for use in whatever fantastic way the government decides (which is great, as governments of both colour have been exceptional in how they invest taxpayer money…….)
I am sure sad violins will be playing loudly for me - but I won’t be getting a new bathroom done or going to the local pub or buying any new items in town or getting Indian takeaways etc. Whilst one person won’t have much impact, multiply that impact by however many parents will be in a similar squeezed position (most of them I suspect) and you can see that spending in to the local economy by the slightly higher earners is going to take a nosedive.
You’re not wrong, but this is what happens every time government take more in tax. The idiots think that more tax means things get better, they dont, things get slightly more sThat £500 a month is basically any discretionary spend I have - so the local economy and other areas I spend that discretionary spend on will not benefit by this amount.
It will instead go in to central coffers for use in whatever fantastic way the government decides (which is great, as governments of both colour have been exceptional in how they invest taxpayer money…….)
I am sure sad violins will be playing loudly for me - but I won’t be getting a new bathroom done or going to the local pub or buying any new items in town or getting Indian takeaways etc. Whilst one person won’t have much impact, multiply that impact by however many parents will be in a similar squeezed position (most of them I suspect) and you can see that spending in to the local economy by the slightly higher earners is going to take a nosedive.
Edited by Notreallymeeither on Monday 6th May 13:34
Edited by Notreallymeeither on Monday 6th May 13:36
t for everyone, which is what will happen. As you’ve eluded to, almost nobody has endless disposable income and the ‘they can afford it now so can pay more’ is hyperbole spouted by ignorant cretins, of which this country appears to be heavily populated with.Edited by M1AGM on Monday 6th May 16:05
Notreallymeeither said:
I wouldn’t be investing it (unfortunately). Maybe I should have been investing that £500 a month over the past 3 years they’ve been at the school (it would have given me a buffer for what is coming), but you have to enjoy life as well.
Should there be VAT on university fees as well?Presumably that’s a reasonable next step? I understand private school exemption is because they are charities, and it is that exemption which is being removed. Are universities charities (like private schools)?
Genuine question and not trying to be argumentative - just trying to understand whether I’ll be paying VAT on university fees in 4 years time (if my daughters decide that route). I don’t understand the distinction otherwise.
I was going to ignore this thread but you’re polite so I’ll do my best to give my opinion.Should there be VAT on university fees as well?Presumably that’s a reasonable next step? I understand private school exemption is because they are charities, and it is that exemption which is being removed. Are universities charities (like private schools)?
Genuine question and not trying to be argumentative - just trying to understand whether I’ll be paying VAT on university fees in 4 years time (if my daughters decide that route). I don’t understand the distinction otherwise.
Maybe you should have been investing, maybe not. You should not be subjected to a short sharp shock. You should have a planning opportunity. But change happens and there’s no real moral argument (some have different morals) for private school parental vat exemptions.
I cannot advise on whether you will, I agree you should be given the planning opportunity. I disagree with the exemption.
VAT on uni fees assumes you accept uni fees, I don’t necessarily
, let’s not go there. It’s a can of worms.Wombat3 said:
Me either but I think the point that is being widely missed is that the threat of this will already be influencing decisions as to whether some kids even start in the private sector. Those that decide not to risk it are unlikely to reverse those decisions.
Same applies for kids that are due to transition from nursery to primary, primary-secondary and secondary to 6th form this September.
As far as the private schools are concerned it's about where the tipping points are that cause them to be non-viable.
Good points, I agree. Same applies for kids that are due to transition from nursery to primary, primary-secondary and secondary to 6th form this September.
As far as the private schools are concerned it's about where the tipping points are that cause them to be non-viable.
I know two governors of small private schools and they're saying more than a 10% downturn in pupil numbers could force them into closure. That's 600 state places (that don't exist) needed immediately in a small area. Whilst it might only be 10% of parents deciding they can't afford to pay VAT on education, it will impact the entire school.
The forecast cost of £1.3bn to tax payers might be a 'drop in the ocean', but it means that the VAT measure will largely be revenue neutral - so why do it? Oh yes, 'toffs', I forgot.
NDA said:
Wombat3 said:
Me either but I think the point that is being widely missed is that the threat of this will already be influencing decisions as to whether some kids even start in the private sector. Those that decide not to risk it are unlikely to reverse those decisions.
Same applies for kids that are due to transition from nursery to primary, primary-secondary and secondary to 6th form this September.
As far as the private schools are concerned it's about where the tipping points are that cause them to be non-viable.
Good points, I agree. Same applies for kids that are due to transition from nursery to primary, primary-secondary and secondary to 6th form this September.
As far as the private schools are concerned it's about where the tipping points are that cause them to be non-viable.
I know two governors of small private schools and they're saying more than a 10% downturn in pupil numbers could force them into closure. That's 600 state places (that don't exist) needed immediately in a small area. Whilst it might only be 10% of parents deciding they can't afford to pay VAT on education, it will impact the entire school.
The forecast cost of £1.3bn to tax payers might be a 'drop in the ocean', but it means that the VAT measure will largely be revenue neutral - so why do it? Oh yes, 'toffs', I forgot.
NDA said:
Wombat3 said:
Me either but I think the point that is being widely missed is that the threat of this will already be influencing decisions as to whether some kids even start in the private sector. Those that decide not to risk it are unlikely to reverse those decisions.
Same applies for kids that are due to transition from nursery to primary, primary-secondary and secondary to 6th form this September.
As far as the private schools are concerned it's about where the tipping points are that cause them to be non-viable.
Good points, I agree. Same applies for kids that are due to transition from nursery to primary, primary-secondary and secondary to 6th form this September.
As far as the private schools are concerned it's about where the tipping points are that cause them to be non-viable.
I know two governors of small private schools and they're saying more than a 10% downturn in pupil numbers could force them into closure. That's 600 state places (that don't exist) needed immediately in a small area. Whilst it might only be 10% of parents deciding they can't afford to pay VAT on education, it will impact the entire school.
The forecast cost of £1.3bn to tax payers might be a 'drop in the ocean', but it means that the VAT measure will largely be revenue neutral - so why do it? Oh yes, 'toffs', I forgot.
If 10% can no longer afford private education, then those 10% may well go to the State sector. The other 90% will move to different independent schools.
The charitable activities of independent schools are small compared to their main activity which is selling education to fee-paying parents. It is silly to pretend otherwise.
As a parent when I pay my son's school fees I do not think "ooh, I'm making a donation to charity", and neither does anyone else.
Why shouldn't I pay VAT on those fees? Why should I get a tax break?
As a parent when I pay my son's school fees I do not think "ooh, I'm making a donation to charity", and neither does anyone else.
Why shouldn't I pay VAT on those fees? Why should I get a tax break?
ATG said:
The charitable activities of independent schools are small compared to their main activity which is selling education to fee-paying parents. It is silly to pretend otherwise.
As a parent when I pay my son's school fees I do not think "ooh, I'm making a donation to charity", and neither does anyone else.
Why shouldn't I pay VAT on those fees? Why should I get a tax break?
I think you should ATG. As a parent when I pay my son's school fees I do not think "ooh, I'm making a donation to charity", and neither does anyone else.
Why shouldn't I pay VAT on those fees? Why should I get a tax break?
I don't think I should though, for the same reason that don't think I should pay VAT on private healthcare.
cheesejunkie said:
Louis Balfour said:
I think you should ATG.
I don't think I should though, for the same reason that don't think I should pay VAT on private healthcare.
Rub my hands together, blow on each. Fight ready.I don't think I should though, for the same reason that don't think I should pay VAT on private healthcare.
Joking.
You think he should get a tax break. Well at least one of you admitted it.
cheesejunkie said:
turbobloke said:
HMG gets a tax break when a parent sends a child to an independent school.
The parent does.HMG doesn't get tax breaks.
Austin_Metro said:
cheesejunkie said:
turbobloke said:
HMG gets a tax break when a parent sends a child to an independent school.
The parent does.HMG doesn't get tax breaks.
Austin_Metro said:
cheesejunkie said:
turbobloke said:
HMG gets a tax break when a parent sends a child to an independent school.
The parent does.HMG doesn't get tax breaks.
There's a good rule of thumb, anyone talking about hardworking taxpayers is usually looking to avoid paying tax.
It rarely goes wrong.
cheesejunkie said:
Trickle down again.
There's a good rule of thumb, anyone talking about hardworking taxpayers is usually looking to avoid paying tax.
It rarely goes wrong.
That’s not one of your better ‘answers’. There’s no trickle down involved in the point I made. There’s clearly a saving to the tax payer in monetary terms where a pupil is removed from a state funded school, where funding is on a per capita basis.There's a good rule of thumb, anyone talking about hardworking taxpayers is usually looking to avoid paying tax.
It rarely goes wrong.
You might be right on “hardworking taxpayers”. In my haste I made a mistake. I should have used the preferred formulation “working people”. They too will benefit if a burden is removed from the system as there will be more money for other things.
The 1.x Bn estimated revenue from the toff training tax is, oddly enough, more or less the same as adding a penny to the higher rate of tax. An increase in the higher rate, would not give rise to the specified unintended consequences, and as this tax absolutely isn’t an envy tax (apparently) and one to generate necessary funds, wouldn’t that make more sense? No, because politically Labour fear the tax bombshell argument.
Austin_Metro said:
cheesejunkie said:
turbobloke said:
HMG gets a tax break when a parent sends a child to an independent school.
The parent does.HMG doesn't get tax breaks.
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