Ukraine: would you fight or run?

[Hill92]

mac96 said:

There are a couple of factors that surely must give Ukranians extra incentive to fight Russia.

The past - Stalin murdered huge numbers of Ukranians when he had the chance.
And the possible future - Putin is very fond of describing Ukranians as Nazis. If I were Ukranian I would be very worried about where that view might lead in the event of Russian occupation. More pogroms?

So, although I voted 'don't know', I am coming to the view that if Ukranian, I would fight. Because the consequences of a Putin victory could be horrific.

No need to read the history books or imagine the future. Just look at the present:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariupol_theatre_a...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_i...

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/20/russia-forces-...

For the Ukrainians this is a war for survival. It's not about military industrial complexes or other Russian propaganda repeated by some useless idiots here.

[mac96]

Hill92 said:

mac96 said:

There are a couple of factors that surely must give Ukranians extra incentive to fight Russia.

The past - Stalin murdered huge numbers of Ukranians when he had the chance.
And the possible future - Putin is very fond of describing Ukranians as Nazis. If I were Ukranian I would be very worried about where that view might lead in the event of Russian occupation. More pogroms?

So, although I voted 'don't know', I am coming to the view that if Ukranian, I would fight. Because the consequences of a Putin victory could be horrific.

No need to read the history books or imagine the future. Just look at the present:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariupol_theatre_a...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_i...

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/20/russia-forces-...

For the Ukrainians this is a war for survival. It's not about military industrial complexes or other Russian propaganda repeated by some useless idiots here.

Fair point, although history suggests most wars are pretty terrible in their present. I think Ukraine has special reasons to fear defeat.

[Nethybridge]

Hill92 said:

No need to read the history books or imagine the future. Just look at the present:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariupol_theatre_a...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_i...

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/20/russia-forces-...

For the Ukrainians this is a war for survival. It's not about military industrial complexes or other Russian propaganda repeated by some useless idiots here.

We can all point out recent history that a country would prefer to remain hidden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Ukr...

[Smint]

Present day reporting is always subject to the plans and intentions of whomever owns the media.
Who writes the history for wikipedia?
Who can be trusted?

[LF5335]

Gargamel said:

LF5335 said:

A complete lack of understanding there. There really are some Walts on here who think that life is a Hollywood movie.

I asked a simple question. I’ll wait to see if that poster replies in the next few hours, days maybe even weeks or whether he’s run away.

Edited by LF5335 on Monday 6th May 11:39

I have already stated, that obviously war is horrendous, it is for everyone. Your substantive point that 'ordinary, tubby, IT workers ' shouldn't have to fight is what I called out as being self serving.

No, you called them cowards. Must be awesome to be nails and so capable of just walking into a war zone with no fear at all.

Gargamel said:

I mean this is such a load of BS, its unbelievable.

No-one - literally no-one is cut out for being cold, wet, terrified and in a fox hole with shells bursting around them. To excuse yourself by saying I am a bit tubby and I prefer a warm office is ridiculous. Should only outdoor workers fight ? What if the factory isn't heated, is those people ok to fight? Does anyone with central heating at home get to choose not to fight - I am no walt warrior - but [b]this is what is called cowardice. ]/b]

Obviously given what happened in WW1 and WW2 we are right to reject war as a means to resolve disputes between nations. But in defence of your country, all bets are off.

People are capable of many things, fighting is also one of them

[richhead]

Stick Legs said:

^^what he said.

Read some diaries of WW2 combatants & see what their day jobs were.

Then read what they did afterwards.

Humbling.

I thing we have become alot more selfish now compared to then, as a nation, most seem to mainly look out for themselves, not others.
Ive always thought that a good old fashioned war would sort out many of societies problems, giving a common enemy to battle against.

[Kart16]

The Americans and the British must fight for Ukraine because they signed the Budapest memorandum:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum

Also, if you read “Foundations of Geopolitics” by Alexander Dugin, it’s clear that Germany is indirectly responsible for the invasion of Ukraine.

Obama, Schroeder, and Merkel in particular are co-responsible for this mess.

[bloomen]

Kart16 said:

Also, if you read “Foundations of Geopolitics” by Alexander Dugin, it’s clear that Germany is indirectly responsible for the invasion of Ukraine.

Ah yes.

The absolute epitome of reasoned, rational neutrality.

A hero and thought leader to all freedom-loving people the world over.

richhead said:

I thing we have become alot more selfish now compared to then, as a nation, most seem to mainly look out for themselves, not others.

When it comes to that type of thing I've always been slightly amazed at how many Americans were willing to go to Vietnam, or rather didn't stick two fingers up en greater masse.

I could begin to wrap my head around a WW2 draft as an American, post Pearl Harbour. They'd need to be extremely, impossibly, convincing to coax me into Vietnam.

[hidetheelephants]

I've read Mein Kampf, and it's pretty clear the untermensch started it all.

wiki said:

It is now known that, during the Vietnam era, approximately 570,000 young men were classified as draft offenders,[3] and approximately 210,000 were formally accused of draft violations;[11][3] however, only 8,750 were convicted and only 3,250 were jailed.[3] Some draft eligible men publicly burned their draft cards, but the Justice Department brought charges against only 50, of whom 40 were convicted.[12]

That's out of a theoretical 27m men who became eligible for the draft(between 18 & 25) 1965-1973.

Edited by hidetheelephants on Wednesday 8th May 03:45

[wildoliver]

richhead said:

Stick Legs said:

^^what he said.

Read some diaries of WW2 combatants & see what their day jobs were.

Then read what they did afterwards.

Humbling.

I thing we have become alot more selfish now compared to then, as a nation, most seem to mainly look out for themselves, not others.
Ive always thought that a good old fashioned war would sort out many of societies problems, giving a common enemy to battle against.

Agreed

You don't need to be a gung ho war hero to fight for your country, vehicles need repairing/fueling/loading, equipment needs organising/transporting/maintaining, food needs to be prepared/transported/served, ammunition needs to be manufactured/transported. People need to be organised, in a guerilla war people need sheltering/hiding/feeding, messages need passing around. In a war of occupation disruption is highly effective, numerous times in Ukraine old women have poisoned russian soldiers by giving them poisoned food.


So you don't need to be nails, you just need to stand up for yourself and your friends/family by doing what you can, if that's patroling with a rifle great, if it's working in a warehouse great, if it's cooking food or driving a lorry great. What no country at war needs though is people who have the attitude of "someone else will do it". And that's a disease we suffer from badly in this country.

[RabidGranny]

richhead said:

i read somewhere once that only 10% of soldiers in ww1 ever fired their gun, and even those that did most deliberately aimed to miss.
would i fight, probably, would i be good at it, probably not, could i kill someone , not sure
i would join up if my country needed me, but what use i would be id debatable

my uncle got punted into the army in the US in the 60's as a way to get citizenship. ended up in Vietnam and did fk all.

[Douglas Quaid]

LF5335 said:

Gargamel said:

LF5335 said:

A complete lack of understanding there. There really are some Walts on here who think that life is a Hollywood movie.

I asked a simple question. I’ll wait to see if that poster replies in the next few hours, days maybe even weeks or whether he’s run away.

Edited by LF5335 on Monday 6th May 11:39

I have already stated, that obviously war is horrendous, it is for everyone. Your substantive point that 'ordinary, tubby, IT workers ' shouldn't have to fight is what I called out as being self serving.

No, you called them cowards. Must be awesome to be nails and so capable of just walking into a war zone with no fear at all.

Gargamel said:

I mean this is such a load of BS, its unbelievable.

No-one - literally no-one is cut out for being cold, wet, terrified and in a fox hole with shells bursting around them. To excuse yourself by saying I am a bit tubby and I prefer a warm office is ridiculous. Should only outdoor workers fight ? What if the factory isn't heated, is those people ok to fight? Does anyone with central heating at home get to choose not to fight - I am no walt warrior - but [b]this is what is called cowardice. ]/b]

Obviously given what happened in WW1 and WW2 we are right to reject war as a means to resolve disputes between nations. But in defence of your country, all bets are off.

People are capable of many things, fighting is also one of them

Well they are cowards. Bravery isn’t about not being scared. Bravery is being scared and going ahead and doing it anyway. They are Ukrainians but they can’t be ‘proud Ukrainians’ as you state as they’ve ran off and left their country and countrymen to it.

No one here is saying ‘Grrr I’m hard I’d love to fight’, they’re saying if it really came to it they’d do that instead of running off, like your friends have done. Even though it would be terrifying. Many Ukrainians who were no doubt absolutely stting themselves stayed and fought anyway because they were/are brave. Some others run off because they’re cowards. To say that they aren’t used to being cold and wouldn’t like it is simply an excuse.

[Kart16]

bloomen said:

Kart16 said:

Also, if you read “Foundations of Geopolitics” by Alexander Dugin, it’s clear that Germany is indirectly responsible for the invasion of Ukraine.

Ah yes.

The absolute epitome of reasoned, rational neutrality.

A hero and thought leader to all freedom-loving people the world over.

I think you don’t know what you are talking about or perhaps I didn’t phrase it correctly.

“Foundations of Geopolitics” was written in 1997 and shortly after became a mandatory text book at the Russian military academies and at the FSB. It says that, among other things that 1)The Baltics, Finland, Poland, and Ukraine are Russian territories by right; 2) Ukraine and Ukrainians have no right to exist: 3) Russia should pursue an alliance with Germany, offering advantageous commercial cooperations, including energy, the return of Koenigsberg, etc.

[pingu393]

Hugo Stiglitz said:

turbomoggie said:

What are you really fighting for?!
I mean you're cannon fodder for wealthy organisations or individuals who have power. You're fighting their wars, not your war. Patriotism and propaganda conditions the majority in to doing what they're told.

The average person just wants a roof over their head, food, family and safety.

It's a tough question to answer. I don't think it's fair for anyone else to judge!

So if it was the UK you'd leave, let the UK be invaded and beaten into servitude for many generations?

You'd profess to be proud to be British and live to be British but abandon our land?

No, he'd burn his passport, abandon everything that is British, and would never return.

Or would he?

[LF5335]

Douglas Quaid said:

Well they are cowards. Bravery isn’t about not being scared. Bravery is being scared and going ahead and doing it anyway. They are Ukrainians but they can’t be ‘proud Ukrainians’ as you state as they’ve ran off and left their country and countrymen to it.

No one here is saying ‘Grrr I’m hard I’d love to fight’, they’re saying if it really came to it they’d do that instead of running off, like your friends have done. Even though it would be terrifying. Many Ukrainians who were no doubt absolutely stting themselves stayed and fought anyway because they were/are brave. Some others run off because they’re cowards. To say that they aren’t used to being cold and wouldn’t like it is simply an excuse.

Literally everyone is saying “grrr I’m hard I’d love to fight” and all relating how they’d do it and how cool it would be.

They wouldn’t and you wouldn’t. If I stuck a gun in your hands and suggested you go off and kill people you’d st yourself.

[borcy]

LF5335 said:

Literally everyone is saying “grrr I’m hard I’d love to fight” and all relating how they’d do it and how cool it would be.

They wouldn’t and you wouldn’t. If I stuck a gun in your hands and suggested you go off and kill people you’d st yourself.

I think you're reading a different thread in all honesty. I don't think anyone has put those things, let alone 'literally everyone '

[Gargamel]

LF5335 said:

Literally everyone is saying “grrr I’m hard I’d love to fight” and all relating how they’d do it and how cool it would be.

They wouldn’t and you wouldn’t. If I stuck a gun in your hands and suggested you go off and kill people you’d st yourself.

Please post one quote from someone saying they’d love to fight.

Otherwise off to the Gulag with you

[Slowboathome]

LF5335 said:

Literally everyone is saying “grrr I’m hard I’d love to fight” and all relating how they’d do it and how cool it would be.

They wouldn’t and you wouldn’t. If I stuck a gun in your hands and suggested you go off and kill people you’d st yourself.

Have you read the thread? I'm definitely not in the 'hard and love to fight' category. I'd be stting myself the whole time. Nothing cool about war. But I hope I'd still put myself forward.

[98elise]

LF5335 said:

Douglas Quaid said:

Well they are cowards. Bravery isn’t about not being scared. Bravery is being scared and going ahead and doing it anyway. They are Ukrainians but they can’t be ‘proud Ukrainians’ as you state as they’ve ran off and left their country and countrymen to it.

No one here is saying ‘Grrr I’m hard I’d love to fight’, they’re saying if it really came to it they’d do that instead of running off, like your friends have done. Even though it would be terrifying. Many Ukrainians who were no doubt absolutely stting themselves stayed and fought anyway because they were/are brave. Some others run off because they’re cowards. To say that they aren’t used to being cold and wouldn’t like it is simply an excuse.

Literally everyone is saying “grrr I’m hard I’d love to fight” and all relating how they’d do it and how cool it would be.

They wouldn’t and you wouldn’t. If I stuck a gun in your hands and suggested you go off and kill people you’d st yourself.

30% have said they would run! Can you point to anyone saying they are hard and would love to fight?

I served in the forces so I would be PREPARED to fight. I didn't think I was hard (I'm the polar opposite) nor did I WANT to fight. I was just prepared to do it defending my country.

You can't project your own feelings onto others.

[LF5335]

98elise said:

30% have said they would run! Can you point to anyone saying they are hard and would love to fight?

I served in the forces so I would be PREPARED to fight. I didn't think I was hard (I'm the polar opposite) nor did I WANT to fight. I was just prepared to do it defending my country.

You can't project your own feelings onto others.

Literally is a figure of speech. However if you would like to take it literally in its truest sense then fine.

44% have said they would fight. Nearly every other person on this thread is announcing they would fight. In my experience that makes them the hardest men around, or at least that’s what they’re announcing. Much like Ronnie Pickering.

Plenty making bold jingoistic statements and calling those who aren’t explicitly giving it large “coward”