Cholesterol

[WyrleyD]

Yep, Ansel Keys is to blame in about 1956 (I think) he maintained that animal saturated fats were the main cause of heart disease. Apparently he had a very forceful personality and was successful in suppressing any ideas to the contrary for many years but that is all changing now, saturated fats good and trans-fats very bad.

[PeteinSQ]

DaveGrohl said:

It’s worth pointing out that foods like butter and cheese can make the measured LDL number go up. But this isn’t a bad thing, as the type of LDL raised is normal LDL. Many will point at the LDL number going up and proclaim look bad. They are operating from a position of lack of detailed knowledge though. The butter is bad for heart attacks dead-end has been left behind now thankfully. A lot of people are still clinging onto the deceased parrot though. Money depends on its life-support remaining on.

Just on the financial aspects of statins. No big pharma company is making significant money from them anymore. They've all been generic for a pretty long time and the price has fallen through the floor. Atorvastatin is a little bit short in the UK right now and prices have increased but are still below the cost of a coffee per month. The prevailing price for months has been below that of a chocolate bar per month and total profit for the entire industry in the UK on statins would have been below £10m p.a. That doesn't leave a lot of money to make massive data manipulation and lobbying worthwhile.

I've no idea about the science and the posts in this thread all conflict with the typical advice given by the BHF and have left me confused.

I genuinely didn't think my diet was that bad, I eat butter, red meat, cheddar cheese etx already. Yes I eat bread, pasta and rice but I'm not obese or even overweight. I exercise three times a week and until relatively recently was doing sub 20 minute 5ks. So I'm really surprised/shocked at this result. I've gone from thinking I'd live to be 80 plus to thinking that I'd snuff it in my 50s.

[RichTT]

Way earlier than that. The first seed oil to be commercialised was Crisco in the US in 1911. It was made from Cottonseed oil which was classed as industrial waste and originally the oil was going to be used to make soap. Once you understand the horrors of industrial bleaching and deodorizing techniques to make 'edible' oils from seeds you'll never want to touch one again.

Then again, practically all processed foods contain some sort of seed oil these days. Horrendous stuff.

https://news.yahoo.com/crisco-toppled-lard-made-am...

[bigpriest]

Just make some adjustments, as referenced, to diet and exercise and see if it reduces. If it doesn't you'll still feel better from the lifestyle changes and can explore medication options.

[DaveGrohl]

PeteinSQ said:

DaveGrohl said:

It’s worth pointing out that foods like butter and cheese can make the measured LDL number go up. But this isn’t a bad thing, as the type of LDL raised is normal LDL. Many will point at the LDL number going up and proclaim look bad. They are operating from a position of lack of detailed knowledge though. The butter is bad for heart attacks dead-end has been left behind now thankfully. A lot of people are still clinging onto the deceased parrot though. Money depends on its life-support remaining on.

Just on the financial aspects of statins. No big pharma company is making significant money from them anymore. They've all been generic for a pretty long time and the price has fallen through the floor. Atorvastatin is a little bit short in the UK right now and prices have increased but are still below the cost of a coffee per month. The prevailing price for months has been below that of a chocolate bar per month and total profit for the entire industry in the UK on statins would have been below £10m p.a. That doesn't leave a lot of money to make massive data manipulation and lobbying worthwhile.

I've no idea about the science and the posts in this thread all conflict with the typical advice given by the BHF and have left me confused.

I genuinely didn't think my diet was that bad, I eat butter, red meat, cheddar cheese etx already. Yes I eat bread, pasta and rice but I'm not obese or even overweight. I exercise three times a week and until relatively recently was doing sub 20 minute 5ks. So I'm really surprised/shocked at this result. I've gone from thinking I'd live to be 80 plus to thinking that I'd snuff it in my 50s.

You're in no way alone in being confused. It's a fantastically confusing subject. The likes of the BHF, AHA, NHS etc are part of the problem. They are way behind the research. There is a wealth of knowledge out there but you won't find it on page 1 of Google. The good news is that the actual research is getting better at getting to the bottom of all this, but the institutions are 20 years behind so you will still read advice like limit saturated fat intake and eat industrial seed oils instead.

Personally speaking, my Dad died from a heart attack in his 60s. I'm approaching that age now and have spent nearly 4 years doing as much reading and listening as I can. I posted that study of 12.8 million Koreans to demonstrate just how simplistically 99% of the medical profession thhink about this stuff. They genuinely think it's a straight line graph with high bad, low good. If they'd actually continue to relearn, instead of sticking to what they were told at med school, then things would change faster.

[RichTT]

PeteinSQ said:

I've no idea about the science and the posts in this thread all conflict with the typical advice given by the BHF and have left me confused.

As far as I understand it, and have seen the results of:

Eating carbs + sugar causes blood sugar to spike, which in turn causes your pancreas to make insulin to store that sugar in your cells for energy later. Over time the cells become immune to the insulin and you become pre-diabetic, or type II due to insulin intolerance.

Every time you eat you pump more blood sugar into your system. So if you eat 3 x meals a day + perhaps snacking in between your body never gets the time to burn the energy stored in your cells. Over time, and with a poor diet your body develops insulin intolerance.

People with high insulin resistance and/or Type II diabetes tend to show high levels of arterial inflammation. It is this inflammation of the arteries that cholesterol builds up on (atherosclerosis) causing plaque.

So it's not the cholesterol that increases cases of heart disease, it is just reacting to the inflammatory reaction your body is having as a result of diet without a break.

6-8 hour eating window, low carbs, cut out processed foods + sugars. Exercise more. Job done.

[WyrleyD]

RichTT said:

PeteinSQ said:

I've no idea about the science and the posts in this thread all conflict with the typical advice given by the BHF and have left me confused.

As far as I understand it, and have seen the results of:

Eating carbs + sugar causes blood sugar to spike, which in turn causes your pancreas to make insulin to store that sugar in your cells for energy later. Over time the cells become immune to the insulin and you become pre-diabetic, or type II due to insulin intolerance.

Every time you eat you pump more blood sugar into your system. So if you eat 3 x meals a day + perhaps snacking in between your body never gets the time to burn the energy stored in your cells. Over time, and with a poor diet your body develops insulin intolerance.

People with high insulin resistance and/or Type II diabetes tend to show high levels of arterial inflammation. It is this inflammation of the arteries that cholesterol builds up on (atherosclerosis) causing plaque.

So it's not the cholesterol that increases cases of heart disease, it is just reacting to the inflammatory reaction your body is having as a result of diet without a break.

6-8 hour eating window, low carbs, cut out processed foods + sugars. Exercise more. Job done.

I'm Type 2 and took it seriously after my last blood test in May when it showed that things had got very bad indeed. Did a lot of investigation on how to help myself rather than the surgery telling me it was down hill from now on in with ever increasing amounts of Metformin and when that didn't work anymore it would have to be injectable insulin then onto possible blindness and loss of limbs. I studied a lot about Insulin Resistance and ways to mitigate it so now:

Take Clean Omega 3 from Algae daily
Take Benfotiamine daily to help the small vessels and nerve endings
Take Clean Berberine to help with glucose levels
7 hours at the gym each week (resistance and 10k on the recumbent bike)
Have moved on to a 18:6 fasting routine (eating only between 12:00 and 18:00) but lots of water in between
Less than 30g of carbs per day consumed
Got myself a CGM to see minute by minute what my glucose levels are doing.

I went from 76kg down to 69.5kg in 5 weeks, not visibly so it must have been all visceral fat which is the worst kind you can have. The other interesting thing I found was that Rolled Oats (just one tablespoon) had a very bad effect on me and my glucose remained very elevated for over a day (went up to 12mmol fo about 5 hours and then came down to 8.5mmol and stayed there) and to think I'd had twice that for breakfast for about 15 years or so.

It's going to be a long haul of at least 6 months (maybe even 12) before I see any benefits in my Insulin Resistance but it will be interesting to see the results of my next blood test end of this month/start of next month and hopefully my disastrous Triglyceride levels will have come down a bit.

My CGM gives a forecast of what my Hba1c should be on a two weekly basis and it's dropped from 8 mmol to 6.5 mmol so far.

[RichTT]

WyrleyD said:

My CGM gives a forecast of what my Hba1c should be on a two weekly basis and it's dropped from 8 mmol to 6.5 mmol so far.

Wish you all the best on your journey and hope you get it under control. If you look at my test from Oct last year I was at about 7.9mmol which according to the doctor would have put me as diabetic. That scared the utter crap out of me. My last test was 4.6 mmol. It can be done entirely through diet and exercise.

[DaveGrohl]

WyrleyD said:

RichTT said:

PeteinSQ said:

I've no idea about the science and the posts in this thread all conflict with the typical advice given by the BHF and have left me confused.

As far as I understand it, and have seen the results of:

Eating carbs + sugar causes blood sugar to spike, which in turn causes your pancreas to make insulin to store that sugar in your cells for energy later. Over time the cells become immune to the insulin and you become pre-diabetic, or type II due to insulin intolerance.

Every time you eat you pump more blood sugar into your system. So if you eat 3 x meals a day + perhaps snacking in between your body never gets the time to burn the energy stored in your cells. Over time, and with a poor diet your body develops insulin intolerance.

People with high insulin resistance and/or Type II diabetes tend to show high levels of arterial inflammation. It is this inflammation of the arteries that cholesterol builds up on (atherosclerosis) causing plaque.

So it's not the cholesterol that increases cases of heart disease, it is just reacting to the inflammatory reaction your body is having as a result of diet without a break.

6-8 hour eating window, low carbs, cut out processed foods + sugars. Exercise more. Job done.

I'm Type 2 and took it seriously after my last blood test in May when it showed that things had got very bad indeed. Did a lot of investigation on how to help myself rather than the surgery telling me it was down hill from now on in with ever increasing amounts of Metformin and when that didn't work anymore it would have to be injectable insulin then onto possible blindness and loss of limbs. I studied a lot about Insulin Resistance and ways to mitigate it so now:

Take Clean Omega 3 from Algae daily
Take Benfotiamine daily to help the small vessels and nerve endings
Take Clean Berberine to help with glucose levels
7 hours at the gym each week (resistance and 10k on the recumbent bike)
Have moved on to a 18:6 fasting routine (eating only between 12:00 and 18:00) but lots of water in between
Less than 30g of carbs per day consumed
Got myself a CGM to see minute by minute what my glucose levels are doing.

I went from 76kg down to 69.5kg in 5 weeks, not visibly so it must have been all visceral fat which is the worst kind you can have. The other interesting thing I found was that Rolled Oats (just one tablespoon) had a very bad effect on me and my glucose remained very elevated for over a day (went up to 12mmol fo about 5 hours and then came down to 8.5mmol and stayed there) and to think I'd had twice that for breakfast for about 15 years or so.

It's going to be a long haul of at least 6 months (maybe even 12) before I see any benefits in my Insulin Resistance but it will be interesting to see the results of my next blood test end of this month/start of next month and hopefully my disastrous Triglyceride levels will have come down a bit.

My CGM gives a forecast of what my Hba1c should be on a two weekly basis and it's dropped from 8 mmol to 6.5 mmol so far.

Good stuff. Important thing is not to be terrified of fats. Fats are your friend, jus keep away from the industrially processed seed oils. It's all here, note the hunger part:

Edited by DaveGrohl on Sunday 6th August 16:44

[WyrleyD]

Yes, I am now not afraid of fats anymore and have dairy cream in my coffee when I'm not having black (only in my eating window though), funny that I do not get at all hungry in the 18 hour fasting period and I've perfected the non-bake cheesecake with a recipe from the Sugarfree Londoner site.

[DaveGrohl]

WyrleyD said:

Yes, I am now not afraid of fats anymore and have dairy cream in my coffee when I'm not having black (only in my eating window though), funny that I do not get at all hungry in the 18 hour fasting period and I've perfected the non-bake cheesecake with a recipe from the Sugarfree Londoner site.

Amazing isn’t it how the body seems to like not being on the carb rollercoaster any more.

[WyrleyD]

Yes, agreed. I was only saying to my wife as we went on a long walk last evening how light I felt as we set off, I felt really good and did the walk with ease at a fairly fast pace too. It's amazing how much damage you can do to yourself with the over-reliance on carbs which is something I found out by doing a lot of reading of research papers and then seeking out podcasts on the subject.

[IJWS15]

A cautionary tale for those who listen to the NHS advice about cholesterol and satins.

My father saw his GP 2 or 3 years ago after having a blood test, the GP told him he would live longer if he reduced his cholesterol levels which caused my father to laugh.




He was, at the time 91 years old, He is now 94 and still quite fit.



He was on statins for a couple of years 15 years ago but stopped them due to muscle issues, they did not lower his cholesterol.

[RichTT]

If anyone else is interested, I try my best to follow this lads Open Source Fitness plan. Doesn't cost anything to download the PDF book and take a look through. It's simply:

10k steps per day
3 workouts a week
16/8 fasting
1 ingredient foods

https://austinherbert3.gumroad.com/l/rhbif/vhhkzvb

[bigdom]

IJWS15 said:

A cautionary tale for those who listen to the NHS advice about cholesterol and satins.

My father saw his GP 2 or 3 years ago after having a blood test, the GP told him he would live longer if he reduced his cholesterol levels which caused my father to laugh.

He was, at the time 91 years old, He is now 94 and still quite fit.

He was on statins for a couple of years 15 years ago but stopped them due to muscle issues, they did not lower his cholesterol.

My mother was put on them over 30 years ago, she's mid 80's, has suffered no issues, and has lowered her Cholesterol. Her father died at 58 from heart disease.

And your point is what?

[Armitage.Shanks]

I discussed statins with my GP when I had a health check and my full blood test showed a total cholesterol of 5.8. They were unconcerned and said statins is a personal decision where the benefits v risks (possible side effects) should be considered.

That said at 59 I'm average weight, medium cardio exercise weekly, have good BP and a low resting HR, drink little alcohol, don't smoke and don't eat a lot of processed foods that I know of. I eat what I like (including biscuits, chocolate etc), when I like but usually within 1100-1900 timeframe. I have no intention of moderating my eating/lifestyle to bring my cholesterol down and 'comply' with some guideline that is not a one size fits all. I mainly do the exercise to keep my weight in check to compensate for stuff people try to tell me I shouldn't eat.

I have a good friend, same age, who manages his weight, does some fitness but sees medication as a positive to keeping well and alive. He made the positive step to go to his GP and ask to go on statins. He takes them, has no side effects, and can't understand why someone wouldn't take medication if that was general advice/option. He's a well read and informed person. Yet despite this he has just been diagnosed with cancer (fortunately caught early and thankfully appears fully treatable).

The upshot is you never know what is around the corner. So you 'could' do nothing and enjoy life, make some minor adjustments without too much compromise, or go full health freak mode and be miserable eating and doing stuff you don't like. Whether any make you live longer, reduce the risk of picking up ailments is anyone's guess.

[lizardbrain]

There are other benefits to statins eg stabilising plaque, it all depends on whether you are susceptible to heart disease or not. If you are I’d say it’s worth trying assuming no effects

[mjb1]

I had blood tests the other week. Cholesterol figure came back as 7.3. Is that really bad? HDL level 1.2, non HDL 6.1 (is that the same as LDL or different?). Also triglycerides were 4.9 when normal range is apparently under 1.7?

I'm 44, somewhat overweight but not completely inactive. Surgery rang me the other day and told me to come in and see the nurse about my cholesterol. Presume I'm likely to get a good telling off about lifestyle and diet?

[WyrleyD]

Your Triglycerides are way over the desired limits and these are the dangerous ones. There are a number of podcasts on Youtube giving advice on how to lower the levels but unfortunately most require quite a strict diet regime and the surgery will most likely tell you you need statins which will help.

[Mezger]

I am currently looking into this, bit of a minefield, seems the conventional wisdom, high cholesterol = high risk may not be entirely accurate, with many other factors contributing (inflammation).

I'm relatively fit, work out 4-5times a week at Crossfit (body fat around 15% max).. I also (thought) I ate pretty clean, little processed foods, focus on protein and not too many refined carbs. I drink very little, average 2 units every couple of weeks, don't smoke etc.

Yet my cholesterol is relatively high, sitting around 7. I also went for a calcium test and my Agatson score was 118, in 95th percentile for men my age (early 40's)...

I'm seeing a cardiologist next week for a review, to discuss.


Date LDL HDL Triglycerides Total Cholesterol
05/03/21 4.9 1.4 0.8 6.7
06/04/23 4.69 1.32 0.88 6.41
26/04/23 5.26 1.53 0.57 7.05