Potholes - Porsche Driver Killed
Discussion
The roads are abysmal at the moment and have been slowly worsening as time has gone on.
But... For me, as I remind the kids often, your car placement is almost exclusively down to one factor and one factor only - the driver. If you need to be making corrections that put you on the wrong side of the road in oncoming traffic, you're probably going excessively fast for the conditions (the speed limit is irrelevant).
We all drive beyond the conditions from time to time. Nobody is perfect. It's when you run out of luck at the same time you get what we have here.
However, the fundamentals here are that someone drove head on into oncoming traffic. Only one person has the power to make that happen. Everything else is unfortunate detail that almost certainly doesn't change the fundamentals.
But... For me, as I remind the kids often, your car placement is almost exclusively down to one factor and one factor only - the driver. If you need to be making corrections that put you on the wrong side of the road in oncoming traffic, you're probably going excessively fast for the conditions (the speed limit is irrelevant).
We all drive beyond the conditions from time to time. Nobody is perfect. It's when you run out of luck at the same time you get what we have here.
However, the fundamentals here are that someone drove head on into oncoming traffic. Only one person has the power to make that happen. Everything else is unfortunate detail that almost certainly doesn't change the fundamentals.
Let's be honest, the Telegraph article was always going to be written in such a way as to rile up their readership, despite the insensitivity of using a sad event like this to do so.
'Council kills 74 year old citizen' vs 'driver not driving for the conditions' will do a much better job of that.
'Council kills 74 year old citizen' vs 'driver not driving for the conditions' will do a much better job of that.
The roads are absolutely appealing here,you need to be constantly looking at the road to avoid them.
I have borrowed my parents Renault Scenic with French soft suspension and small wheels with gib side walls and it is a revelation.
There is literally no point owning a car with firm suspension as it is just unpleasant to drive.
My next car will be big and comfy not fast or sporty.
I have borrowed my parents Renault Scenic with French soft suspension and small wheels with gib side walls and it is a revelation.
There is literally no point owning a car with firm suspension as it is just unpleasant to drive.
My next car will be big and comfy not fast or sporty.
Getragdogleg said:
GT9 said:
'driver not driving for the conditions' .
There is a reasonable expectation that a road will be a certain standard, that pothole was well below the standard and had been for a while.What if instead of a pothole it was an object in the road? It'd be on the driver to be able to stop on their own side of the road.
Horrible thing to happen of course
Getragdogleg said:
There is a reasonable expectation that a road will be a certain standard, that pothole was well below the standard and had been for a while.
There isn't, really. In a perfect world there would be, but in reality you should expect potholes or any other hazard being present. Without knowing all the facts it's impossible to determine just how this collision occurred, suffice to say that observing the Golden Rule is as important as it ever was. A starting position for a fixed hazard like this must always be 'what was different in this case to the hundreds or thousands of cars that have encountered the same hazard here without crashing?'. Don Roque said:
Getragdogleg said:
There is a reasonable expectation that a road will be a certain standard, that pothole was well below the standard and had been for a while.
There isn't, really. In a perfect world there would be, but in reality you should expect potholes or any other hazard being present. Without knowing all the facts it's impossible to determine just how this collision occurred, suffice to say that observing the Golden Rule is as important as it ever was. A starting position for a fixed hazard like this must always be 'what was different in this case to the hundreds or thousands of cars that have encountered the same hazard here without crashing?'. Baldchap said:
The roads are abysmal at the moment and have been slowly worsening as time has gone on.
But... For me, as I remind the kids often, your car placement is almost exclusively down to one factor and one factor only - the driver. If you need to be making corrections that put you on the wrong side of the road in oncoming traffic, you're probably going excessively fast for the conditions (the speed limit is irrelevant).
We all drive beyond the conditions from time to time. Nobody is perfect. It's when you run out of luck at the same time you get what we have here.
However, the fundamentals here are that someone drove head on into oncoming traffic. Only one person has the power to make that happen. Everything else is unfortunate detail that almost certainly doesn't change the fundamentals.
This is of course true.But... For me, as I remind the kids often, your car placement is almost exclusively down to one factor and one factor only - the driver. If you need to be making corrections that put you on the wrong side of the road in oncoming traffic, you're probably going excessively fast for the conditions (the speed limit is irrelevant).
We all drive beyond the conditions from time to time. Nobody is perfect. It's when you run out of luck at the same time you get what we have here.
However, the fundamentals here are that someone drove head on into oncoming traffic. Only one person has the power to make that happen. Everything else is unfortunate detail that almost certainly doesn't change the fundamentals.
In extremis, the driver should have taken the wheel damage than put the car into the path of another car.
But, the condition of the roads is appalling.
Yes, so on the one hand we have an expectation that the roads should be in good condition but on the other an acceptance that they are not - evidence the constant and multiple complaints about the roads. We can't have it both ways. The state of the roads in the areas where this happened and where the deceased lived is very well known and has been a hot topic for years. It should therefore be a consideration for every driver. Having said that, we can all be shocked by something even more out of the ordinary but in those cases, with the exception of avoiding a child perhaps, the default should be to rely on the brakes and do everything to avoid a head on with oncoming traffic. The deceased may have done this so I will wait for the report but if it turns out an experienced driver swerved into oncoming traffic to avoid a pothole then that'll be a hard one to justify in my eyes.
As for what causes potholes, it certainly isn't freezing and thawing in this part of the world. I can't remember ice in the last twelve months. What we can observe is the poor performance of county councils in getting the potholes repaired, and to an acceptable standard. It's similar to the moans about road flooding. The world may be warming up, we may be building more homes but what we have also done is stopped clearing drains.
As for what causes potholes, it certainly isn't freezing and thawing in this part of the world. I can't remember ice in the last twelve months. What we can observe is the poor performance of county councils in getting the potholes repaired, and to an acceptable standard. It's similar to the moans about road flooding. The world may be warming up, we may be building more homes but what we have also done is stopped clearing drains.
Gary C said:
This is of course true.
In extremis, the driver should have taken the wheel damage than put the car into the path of another car.
But, the condition of the roads is appalling.
You can't demand rational reactions from all drivers to what for many people will be a surprise, last minute obstacle. Some will have the agility of mind to accept the damage because they can't say for sure it's safe to swerve around it. Others won't. In extremis, the driver should have taken the wheel damage than put the car into the path of another car.
But, the condition of the roads is appalling.
Unreal said:
As for what causes potholes, it certainly isn't freezing and thawing in this part of the world. I can't remember ice in the last twelve months. What we can observe is the poor performance of county councils in getting the potholes repaired, and to an acceptable standard. It's similar to the moans about road flooding. The world may be warming up, we may be building more homes but what we have also done is stopped clearing drains.
Freeze/thaw was mentioned in the article I linked, as was water-logging.West Sussex is certainly not immune to flooding and problems with excessive water.
Here is January's temperature and rainfall history for Petworth.
Rain at the beginning of then month and then a temperature drop oscillating around zero.
You not seeing ice doesn't mean that freezing water can't be doing its stuff in the surface and underneath it.
Forester1965 said:
You can't demand rational reactions from all drivers to what for many people will be a surprise, last minute obstacle. Some will have the agility of mind to accept the damage because they can't say for sure it's safe to swerve around it. Others won't.
That's pretty much the same as saying not all drivers will drive to the conditions. Swerving into the path of an oncoming car is (hopefully) a rare reaction, and, as said above, many many cars have driven the same stretch of road without this outcome. GT9 said:
Unreal said:
As for what causes potholes, it certainly isn't freezing and thawing in this part of the world. I can't remember ice in the last twelve months. What we can observe is the poor performance of county councils in getting the potholes repaired, and to an acceptable standard. It's similar to the moans about road flooding. The world may be warming up, we may be building more homes but what we have also done is stopped clearing drains.
Freeze/thaw was mentioned in the article I linked, as was water-logging.West Sussex is certainly not immune to flooding and problems with excessive water.
Here is January's temperature and rainfall history for Petworth.
Rain at the beginning of then month and then a temperature drop oscillating around zero.
You not seeing ice doesn't mean that freezing water can't be doing its stuff in the surface and underneath it.
What I know is that weather is milder and potholes are a bigger problem and that highways maintenance is a joke. Whatever the cause, the council should be better at fixing the problem. It's just a symptom of their overall poor performance which is always blamed on a lack of money and never on their productivity and working practices. I don't need a graph to know that. It's based on 30 years of watching them work at close quarters.
Edited by Unreal on Monday 6th May 09:40
_Neal_ said:
That's pretty much the same as saying not all drivers will drive to the conditions. Swerving into the path of an oncoming car is (hopefully) a rare reaction, and, as said above, many many cars have driven the same stretch of road without this outcome.
The conditions aren't a surprise demanding an immediate decision. Think of it more like a ln animal running out from the hedgerow- some drivers will instinctively swerve to avoid before considering whether it's safe and others will run over the cat.It's not about who's right or wrong but about accepting in any given circumstance different people will respond in different ways. Potholes are dangerous because they force people to make snap decisions.
_Neal_ said:
Forester1965 said:
You can't demand rational reactions from all drivers to what for many people will be a surprise, last minute obstacle. Some will have the agility of mind to accept the damage because they can't say for sure it's safe to swerve around it. Others won't.
That's pretty much the same as saying not all drivers will drive to the conditions. Swerving into the path of an oncoming car is (hopefully) a rare reaction, and, as said above, many many cars have driven the same stretch of road without this outcome. https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9963213,-0.5908678...
Unreal said:
The pothole being discussed is clearly visible. It's not concealed around a hairpin. The accident happened in daylight and dry conditions. Have a look round.
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9963213,-0.5908678...
So is the unfortunate Porsche driver guilty of Driving Without Due Care & Attention?https://www.google.com/maps/@50.9963213,-0.5908678...
Zarco said:
GT9 said:
georgeyboy12345 said:
What a load of cobblers, there are countries with much more extreme climates in terms of heat, cold and rainfall than the UK and these countries don’t have problems with potholes - because they have progressive governments that actually spend money on public services - you know, like roads.
Combination of factors is usually a good place to start.Not repairing the roads is one factor.
Warmer/wetter winters is another.
The most destructive mechanism is repetitive freezing and thawing of water in the road surface, as it expands by nearly 10% each time it freezes.
If it did it just once and stayed frozen the whole winter that would be far less destructive than what we are getting here.
Freezing daily is like a jacking system to open up a cavity.
The water takes up a new position each time and then freezes again.
If the drainage is poor the water just sits there and does its thing.
We can keep dancing around the massive inconvenient elephant in the room that is getting bigger each year, or maybe it's time to face up to the fact that climate change is a factor in a whole host of things like this, and yes, we are poorly equipped to deal with it.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20240124-climat...
I was surprised as always thought it was the cold too.
I would concur that we have seen very little frost here this past winter, some but not much and not long spells. Yet it's been one of the wettest winters in a long time, the river Severn and tributaries by us have been at higher levels for months, ok not reached the extreme heights of previous winters but would estimate the main river level has been typically up by a metre, give or take a bit, with no spells where it's dropped down to normal levels. It's back down now and has been for a few weeks, and if now there is a spell of very wet weather then it rises and drops back rapidly which to me indicates the catchment area is no longer saturated. 2019/20 was another wet winter. What we roads like then?
Climate change? Possibly, or just a run of wet weather in the normal scheme of things, not for me to say. Whether it's caused by man made activities is for completely different threads.
Going back on topic the other thing we forget is that tarmacadam road surfacing is a flexible material. Just look at how it gets moved around at busy bus stops for example.
Unreal said:
Me not seeing ice doesn't mean that freezing water is doing its stuff in the surface and underneath it either.
What I know is that weather is milder and potholes are a bigger problem and that highways maintenance is a joke. Whatever the cause, the council should be better at fixing the problem. It's just a symptom of their overall poor performance which is always blamed on a lack of money and never on their productivity and working practices. I don't need a graph to know that. It's based on 30 years of watching them work at close quarters.
As I said, a combination of factors.What I know is that weather is milder and potholes are a bigger problem and that highways maintenance is a joke. Whatever the cause, the council should be better at fixing the problem. It's just a symptom of their overall poor performance which is always blamed on a lack of money and never on their productivity and working practices. I don't need a graph to know that. It's based on 30 years of watching them work at close quarters.
Edited by Unreal on Monday 6th May 09:40
You looking for ice during the day when it's freezing overnight seems a bit of an odd way to go about.
I'm labouring the point because we are not doing ourselves (as car drivers) any favours by continual refusal to accept inconvenient explanations for things when evidence is clearly there to point to its contribution.
Edited by GT9 on Monday 6th May 09:47
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