Morrison's diesel (again!)

Morrison's diesel (again!)

Author
Discussion

pjramsey

Original Poster:

12 posts

46 months

Friday 26th June 2020
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I know there are some old threads on this but wanted opinions again.

I have a aging 200k Civic 2.2 which drives perfect and over the last 100k miles since owning I have averaged over 60mog.

I do the same 280 mile round trip each week mostly motorway miles on cruise control at just over 70mph. 99% of the time I fill up at Adds. This week I filled up at Morrison's and the mpg dropped to 56. The car also felt sluggish and non responsive. It was fine on the 140 miles for the first leg.

Fully know that all the fuel comes from the same refineries with the difference being additives and the bio diesel content which I believe can vary between 5 and 7%.

Obviously going to go back to my normal Asda brand and compare but wanted to know if recently if anyone else had the same experience. Could just be a bad tanker batch, my Ecu or car not liking a different bio mix or.... My car is due for a change!

gazza285

9,810 posts

208 months

Friday 26th June 2020
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I stopped using it years ago, my old van did thirty less miles to a tank on Morrison’s compared to my local Jet, this was when I was driving the same 150 mile journey nearly every day for nine months, the Jet garage is near my house, and the Morrison’s was next to my destination, so I was using nearly two tank fulls a week. Same result every time.

quinny100

922 posts

186 months

Friday 26th June 2020
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It has been very warm this week. Have you had the AC on by any chance?

DanT86

91 posts

59 months

Friday 26th June 2020
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It's more likely the hot weather use of the A/C and possibly more traffic on the roads

pjramsey

Original Poster:

12 posts

46 months

Friday 26th June 2020
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Good call regarding the a/c but no. Had it during the journey there 63mpg. Filled up and same journey back 56!

I have read quite a few other posts and just think the car doesn't like whatever mix of diesel Morrisons has. Cheers for reply.

tonymor

1,481 posts

172 months

Friday 26th June 2020
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My son is a service advisor in a dealership in Norfolk and he has told me repeatedly how many cars they've had in with problems all relating to Morrisons fuel so apparently it's well known in the trade.

pjramsey

Original Poster:

12 posts

46 months

Friday 26th June 2020
quotequote all
Tonynor. Thanks for the reply. This is what I suspected especially after reading various other threads. I expect it comes down to the tolerances on the ECU and MAF sensor and how much it can adjust around the different diesel mixes. I know my car pretty well as I drive 25k per year, mainly the same journey, and it just didn't feel right.

I was starting to think my old heap of junk (which is actually one of the most reliable cars I have had!) was getting near it's sell by date. Will wait until the next fill up and hopefully my trusty piece of Japanese engine will last a bit longer.

Puddenchucker

4,087 posts

218 months

Friday 26th June 2020
quotequote all
I had something similar happen to my car a few months ago.
Filled up (about 50 litres) at Morrisons rather than at my usual (other supermarket brand) staition and within 50 miles I notciced a drop of 6-8mpg on the trip computer. This was confirmed by me needing to fill-up about 70 miles earlier than usual. (During that time the car was only used for commuting along the same route I've used for years)
When I filled up again, at my usual place, mpg when back up to usual level within about 60-70 miles.

pjramsey

Original Poster:

12 posts

46 months

Friday 26th June 2020
quotequote all
Thanks puddenchucker. Don't think I will be going back to Morrison's anytime soon! I expect people don't notice a difference if a) they don't have a regular commute or b) they have larger engined less economic cars. Obviously a 5 to 10% difference on 65mpg is far more noticeable than if you had say a 3litre diesel that only did 40mpg.

Irony was that I only went to Morrison's as the A12 was messed up. My normal fill up station was actually cheaper!

Benrad

650 posts

149 months

Friday 26th June 2020
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I know there's lots of circumstantial evidence about Morrison's diesel out there, but I don't buy it. The diesel they sell conforms to EN590 standards, that's all that matters really (unless you're in a lab).

I know air-conditioning was on both ways but in hotter weather it will draw far more power. Cooling fan may well have been on too, even the coefficient of friction with the road could change significantly with a change of temperature.

I work in diesel engine development with customers that are very picky about economy, for good reason. My job involves interpreting results from field test vehicles around the world and differences in fuel economy Vs expectation can have lots of explanations, like the ones I've given above. I've seen lots but never seen fuel be the issue

Edited for typo

Edited by Benrad on Saturday 27th June 07:07

Auto810graphy

1,400 posts

92 months

Friday 26th June 2020
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For a good number of years we have known of issues with certain fuel providers with Morrison’s being the worst. One of our clients has in excess of 300 LCV’s and they have a company directive stating only Shell fuel to be used or if needed Texaco or Sainsbury’s.

They found any vehicle using Morrison’s fuel was suffering blocked fuel filters which I understand is from the biodiesel mix.

Since they issued the Shell only directive they very rarely have fuel system problems.

pjramsey

Original Poster:

12 posts

46 months

Friday 26th June 2020
quotequote all
Sorry Benrad. Fully understand what you are saying and respect your profession but no. I have driven my car over 100k miles and in hotter weather than this week. AC has been on before and no noticable difference in economy. Car was on constant motorway driving which generates air flow as you are probably aware. Have only ever had the fan on a few times and that was in a traffic jam. My temp gauge never moves and although the car probably could do with a coolant flush you have missed one piece of evidence being it was fine before I filled up. Just to add another piece of info... I actually turned the AC off, reset my trip and still crap MPG. So no. However and not wishing to dismiss your experience, maybe looking at Morrison's diesel and it's effects is a good project for you? No point in spending hours looking a the effects of increased rust coefficients due to heat if there is crap fuel in circulation which is killing the economy of your customers and then sell your findings to Morrison's.

Auto810graphy. Like the other emerging posts there seems to quite a bit of anecdotal evidence to support that Morrison's fuel delivers less mpg. Haven't seen anything scientific yet to suggest anything different.

Of course it could be just a coincidence and at the exact same time I filled up and reset my trip computer something wore out/broke. Eg. Exhaust manifold which is common. (have taken cover off and checked this and.... No!. Air filter 1000 miles old. No. Replaced fuel filter at same time at expense of my knuckles so... No).

I hate spending money of fuel as filling up doubles the value of my car. But can't wait this time!




pjramsey

Original Poster:

12 posts

46 months

Friday 26th June 2020
quotequote all
For those that have more free time than sense I have found something a bit more scientific. Ignore the first parts and scroll to the results which clearly show the more biodiesel (which I believe can be up to 7% in Euro/UK spec) the higher the fuel consumption. Also depends what biofuel is added which was a new one on me.

https://academic.oup.com/ijlct/article/6/4/255/665...

PistonAFC

120 posts

48 months

Friday 26th June 2020
quotequote all
pjramsey said:
For those that have more free time than sense I have found something a bit more scientific. Ignore the first parts and scroll to the results which clearly show the more biodiesel (which I believe can be up to 7% in Euro/UK spec) the higher the fuel consumption. Also depends what biofuel is added which was a new one on me.

https://academic.oup.com/ijlct/article/6/4/255/665...

This is a easy one to answer - they can put biodiseal and/or ethanol in petrol/diesal. these have less calories than petrol/diesal so more is used = more fuel compsumption for the same distance = lower mpg.

pjramsey

Original Poster:

12 posts

46 months

Friday 26th June 2020
quotequote all
Thanks Pistonafc. That summary will save anyone who is interested scrolling through the pages of tech stuff on the link I sent.

Tried to find out how much biodiesel percentage (assuming that is the underlying reason) for each brand. Also does anyone know when the biodiesel is added? Is it at the refinery or added by the supplying vendor? The interesting one is Shell who sells their V-power diesel. As they have no UK refinery and unless they ship in predefined diesel I assume they take the base diesel and modify with additives and biodiesel afterwards. I did read some post that it is added to the tanker...

Teddy Lop

8,294 posts

67 months

Friday 26th June 2020
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Benrad said:
I know there's lots of circumstantial evidence about Morrison's diesel out there, but I don't buy it. The diesel they sell conforms to EN590 standards, that's all that matters really (unless you're in a lab).

I know air-conditioning was on both ways but in hotter weather it will draw far more power. Cooling fan may well have been on too, even the coefficient of friction with the rust could change significantly with a change of temperature.

I work in diesel engine development with customers that are very picky about economy, for good reason. My job involves interpreting results from field test vehicles around the world and differences in fuel economy Vs expectation can have lots of explanations, like the ones I've given above. I've seen lots but never seen fuel be the issue
I had a merc vito with the v6 cdi that had a penchance for dying into limp mode at me with no explanation every few months or so for the 12 years I drove it... Only fairly consistent provoker seemed to be supermarket fuel, and Morrison's was the one nearest me.

pjramsey

Original Poster:

12 posts

46 months

Friday 26th June 2020
quotequote all
Looks like another piece of anecdotal evidence for Berad to justify a project and sales pitch to Morrison's. Come on Benrad ...step up...

anonymous-user

54 months

Friday 26th June 2020
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Why would Morissons be interested? They sell more fuel as a result.

Benrad

650 posts

149 months

Saturday 27th June 2020
quotequote all
pjramsey said:
Looks like another piece of anecdotal evidence for Berad to justify a project and sales pitch to Morrison's. Come on Benrad ...step up...
Sorry dude I'm not on here all that often!

If Morrison's do have a higher biodiesel percentage AND that biodiesel has a measurably lower LHV (lower heating value, a measure of the energy present in the fuel) which is statistically significant i.e. you measure a large number of samples, over a good period of time, and the mean shifts by an amount that's large compared to the standard deviation of the samples. Then I'll believe it. I've not read the link posted above but if it shows that then yes, the diesel is causing the fuel economy difference

I can't explain what you've found, but it didn't prove I'm wrong either. Your idea for a project definitely wouldn't benefit my employers so that's a no go, but it's a good idea. Would probably cost someone say £50k in fuel sample analysis to prove it I'd say (roughly £100 an analysis, 100 samples for five suppliers).

I know pure biodiesel B100 can have a fuel economy impact, but it's similar in magnitude to the impact you're describing. That's in a laboratory.

Benrad

650 posts

149 months

Saturday 27th June 2020
quotequote all
Teddy Lop said:
I had a merc vito with the v6 cdi that had a penchance for dying into limp mode at me with no explanation every few months or so for the 12 years I drove it... Only fairly consistent provoker seemed to be supermarket fuel, and Morrison's was the one nearest me.
Do you know what was causing limp mode, what error codes it had?

Obvious ones would be blocked fuel filter (low fuel pressure world be the code), but that would only be fixed by changing the filter, not changing the fuel. Or water in fuel, which would normally need you to drain the filter. Unlikely to be one thing about the fuel that could cause both poor fuel economy and limp mode. If you know the error codes that might point in a certain direction though