Monday 19th November 2007

AC Schnitzer Breaks Gas World Record

Tuner Takes Green And Makes It Mean

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The GP3.10 is a gas

There is something quite satisfying about taking a so-called ‘green’ fuel and using it to make a car do almost 200 mph.

Tuner AC Schnitzer has created the world’s fastest gas car out of a BMW 3-Series and proved their point at high speed track Nardo.

The Concept Car GP3.10 Gas Powered hit 318 kmh (198 mph) on the track.

The car has a modified M5 engine with 552 bhp.

But the best bit about the concept is you can quote AC Schnitzer and say it has been built with ‘efficiency and economy’ in mind.

[Bizzle]

Yeah,
But LPG (gas) actually has an octane rating of 110 - but has a much shorter burn time which means that the engine timing needs to be adjusted to get any real performance gains. If you run a car on LPG only and don't have to make comprimises to make the car "duel fuel" then it's got some great peformance gains to offer.

However - i don't know about you, but i wouldn't go racing with a tank full of compressed gas in the back of the car.

Edited by Bizzle on Monday 19th November 12:42

[Jason_W]

Why not? LPG tanks are a hell of a lot more robust than the petrol equivalent, has a higher auto ignition temperature and is used by millions of vehicles perfectly safely every day.

[wab172uk]

But you would go racing with a tank full of highly flamable liquid.

What's the difference?

[Bizzle]

It's a fair point,
However if you rupture a fuel tank, it's likley to leak fuel unless it catches on a spark or sorce of ignition. Petrol tanks actually very rairly explode even in the heaviest crashes (from my limited experience it's the fuel vapour that ignites before the actual liquid petrol) If you rupture a gas tank - they have a tendancy to go BOOOOOOOM.

Edited by Bizzle on Monday 19th November 12:52

[ironictwist]

• strokes his LPG powered 328

Gotta admit though, the new 3 series there looks gorgeous. This is where it should've naturally progressed to from the E36 rather than piddling over to the E46's then this.

[Jason_W]

Bizzle said:

It's a fair point,
However if you rupture a fuel tank, it's likley to leak fuel unless it catches on a spark or sorce of ignition. Petrol tanks actually very rairly explode even in the heaviest crashes (from my limited experience it's the fuel vapour that ignites before the actual liquid petrol) If you rupture a gas tank - they have a tendancy to go BOOOOOOOM.

Edited by Bizzle on Monday 19th November 12:52

Bizzle, not neccessarily. I've not done the risk assessment but the chance of a LPG tank going boom any more so than a petrol tank is probably about the same. In certain circumstances, you can get a blevy but that is with the much larger isotanks rather than the capacity normally found in a road going vehicle.

[Bizzle]

I was just doing a little research myself.
I didn't realise that they have a pressure valve that lets the gas out in a steady stream rather than alowing the tank to rupture when heated/impacted. Grand idea -
However i wonder how they would fair if you put one in the back of a racecar and hit a wall at 100+.
(serious point)

[Jason_W]

Dunno. To be fair, you'd have to have some form of bag tank similar to those used in motorsport for standard fuels for a fair comparison but getting the stuff to ignite isn't as easy as you'd think.

Although LPG will expand to around 250 times its original volume as a liquid, getting the correct air/fuel mixture (between 2-10%) isn't a simple affair, requiring jetting etc to achieve combustion.

There was a lot of work done with fridges, with evaporators rupturing to simulate a catastrophic leak but the problem was that the jet stream was too strong to ignite - in other words, the gas escape extinguished the source of ignition!

[leyytm]

When they say that economy was in mind, what kind of figures can this car do?

[stuthemong]

leyttm,

It's in the story mate, 198 mph is what it can do.

Stu

[Howitzer]

Proper engines use petrol.

Dave!

[cowellsj]

I know it's getting away from the point, but that does look mean in white, shows up all the lines in the body nicely. The rear arches look slightly like E30 M3 arches.

Don't know how anyone can say that a 552hp V10 3-series was built with ‘efficiency and economy’ in mind tho..

Bet the greenies will still hate it anyway. It's not always about saving the environment.

Edited by cowellsj on Monday 19th November 13:43

[Bizzle]

Jason_W said:

Dunno. To be fair, you'd have to have some form of bag tank similar to those used in motorsport for standard fuels for a fair comparison but getting the stuff to ignite isn't as easy as you'd think.

Although LPG will expand to around 250 times its original volume as a liquid, getting the correct air/fuel mixture (between 2-10%) isn't a simple affair, requiring jetting etc to achieve combustion.

There was a lot of work done with fridges, with evaporators rupturing to simulate a catastrophic leak but the problem was that the jet stream was too strong to ignite - in other words, the gas escape extinguished the source of ignition!

I wonder if you could use interchangeable LPG tanks latched into place.
I know this is off topic, but i don't see any other way that LPG could be used in racing - you can't fill up the tanks from anywhere other than an approved station. But if you could fill up 3 or 4 tanks and take them with you to the event then swap them out when you needed. That's cost effective high performance fuel you have there.

[cowellsj]

Bizzle said:

It's a fair point,
However if you rupture a fuel tank, it's likley to leak fuel unless it catches on a spark or sorce of ignition. Petrol tanks actually very rairly explode even in the heaviest crashes (from my limited experience it's the fuel vapour that ignites before the actual liquid petrol) If you rupture a gas tank - they have a tendancy to go BOOOOOOOM.

Edited by Bizzle on Monday 19th November 12:52

Not the technology that worries me, it's some of the idiots out there trying to use it.

I was at a Shell garage on the A30 not long back and some guy way trying to use the LPG pump. A one point there was a loud blast like you get from an air-line or car dumpvalve as some pressure was released very rapidly followed by some expletives. I don't know what he was up to (don't thing he did either) but it didn't fill me with confidence.

[NiallOswald]

Surely they're missing the point that just like petrol and diesel, LPG comes out of a hole in the ground and is non-renewable. This car isn't in the slightest bit 'green'.

[joz8968]

PH said:

...The Concept Car GP3.10 Gas Powered hit 318 kmh...

An appropriate speed for a 3-series...

[Jason_W]

NiallOswald said:

Surely they're missing the point that just like petrol and diesel, LPG comes out of a hole in the ground and is non-renewable. This car isn't in the slightest bit 'green'.

LPG has significantly lower emissions than either petrol or diesel and although we can debate the greenwashing element as much as we like, CO2 emissions are what everyone wants to hang their hat on.

[Dino D]

cowellsj said:

Not the technology that worries me, it's some of the idiots out there trying to use it.

I was at a Shell garage on the A30 not long back and some guy way trying to use the LPG pump. A one point there was a loud blast like you get from an air-line or car dumpvalve as some pressure was released very rapidly followed by some expletives. I don't know what he was up to (don't thing he did either) but it didn't fill me with confidence.

Sounds like he was a newbie to the LPG filling procedure. It does take a few tries to get the right technique and some of the pumps are easier to use than others...

That loud blast is common-as you unhook the gas pipe from the filler cap there is a big pop with a small escape of gas. If your hand is too close you get some on you-it's just cold gas but leaves a bit of small hence the expletions!

If you are a bit slow hooking/decoupling it you can extend the period in which the gas escapes from the tank but this will make more of a loud hissing niose. If the gas escapes in some quantity onto your skin you will actually suffer mild 'burns' from the cold. I know....

As for being idiots-at least that not as bad as they petrol/diesel users who often spill liquid all over the floor of the forecourt.

[Jason_W]

Bizzle said:

Jason_W said:

Dunno. To be fair, you'd have to have some form of bag tank similar to those used in motorsport for standard fuels for a fair comparison but getting the stuff to ignite isn't as easy as you'd think.

Although LPG will expand to around 250 times its original volume as a liquid, getting the correct air/fuel mixture (between 2-10%) isn't a simple affair, requiring jetting etc to achieve combustion.

There was a lot of work done with fridges, with evaporators rupturing to simulate a catastrophic leak but the problem was that the jet stream was too strong to ignite - in other words, the gas escape extinguished the source of ignition!

I wonder if you could use interchangeable LPG tanks latched into place.
I know this is off topic, but i don't see any other way that LPG could be used in racing - you can't fill up the tanks from anywhere other than an approved station. But if you could fill up 3 or 4 tanks and take them with you to the event then swap them out when you needed. That's cost effective high performance fuel you have there.

Calor used to sponsor a Vectra in the Touring Car Championship which was LPG powered, although it ran outside of the main competition due to running LPG. Worked well and safely.

As for detachable tanks, although a similar system is used on fork lift trucks the 29 litre cylinders are too small for what you're planning and the larger capacity fixed fuel tanks are either not detachable or would come under the Pressure Equipment Directive, which unless you're prepared to operate it on a commercial basis with a written scheme of examination in place would preclued this activity.

[Dino D]

Bizzle said:

Yeah,
But LPG (gas) actually has an octane rating of 110 - but has a much shorter burn time which means that the engine timing needs to be adjusted to get any real performance gains. If you run a car on LPG only and don't have to make comprimises to make the car "duel fuel" then it's got some great peformance gains to offer.

I had an e46 330i on LPG and was lovely. There was a small drop in power and torque though, despite the higher octane. The fitter told me that he could fiddle with the ecu to get more power but that would mean a higher mpg.

I left it as is and even so the car still could do and indicated 150mph (I never got over that on petrol either-took too much road and was into the redline already-I think BMW were a bit optimistic in saying it was 'electronically limited' to 155!)