RE: Panamera Platform Sharing Mooted
Monday 7th September 2009
Will Porsche open its doors to other brands?Last week Car magazine set off the first round of speculation with a story that VW doesn't see a future for luxury saloons and 4x4s with Porsche badges - the rationale being that VW already owns brands that have those sectors well covered.
Panamera Platform Sharing Mooted
Speculation drift: First we hear Panamera will die, now it's in the VW family way...
Possible futures for the Porsche Panamera and Cayenne lines under VW ownership is giving rise to fevered speculation about whether the pair will live or die when current models reach the end of their production cycles.
Will Porsche open its doors to other brands?
Today, however, new reports from the US suggest that in fact the Panamera will live on, and its platform could even spawn a series of siblings in Porsche's new sister brands.
Whether that means we'll see the platform used on future Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini or VW models remains to be seen, the US report says.
To be fair, Volkswagen has been well known in the past for a policy of 'internal competition', which allows individuals brands a free hand when it comes to raiding the parts bins of sister companies - so it's not such an outlandish proposal.
However, in the interests of keeping the Panamera speculation spinning, PistonHeads would like to be the first to speculate that the first Panamera spin-off will be a Skoda-badged luxury car limo specifically for the Eastern European market... or maybe not.
Discussion
I imagine they may be a bit gutted if someone takes what seems to be a good car and actually clothes it in something palatable to look at! Could be interesting to see and hopefully a poke in the eye to the current 'design' dept.
I'm not a Porsche hater at all, in fact I have had one ( a 944) just why does every new model have to look so similar at the moment?
I'm not a Porsche hater at all, in fact I have had one ( a 944) just why does every new model have to look so similar at the moment?
Article said:
Last week Car magazine set off the first round of speculation with a story that VW doesn't see a future for luxury saloons and 4x4s with Porsche badges - the rationale being that VW already owns brands that have those sectors well covered
The problem with this hypothesis is that, for many people, the Porsche badge is extremely attractive regardless of the car that it is stuck on.As a long-time admirer of the marque I would be delighted to see the Porsche range consist of the 911, Cayman and Boxster only. No 4x4s, big saloons, and certainly no diesels.
But the Cayenne and Panamera will sell and that's why they make them.
The pana seems to be a pretty bespoke thing. That huge (and I do mean huge) central tunnel running the length of the insides, will force any other variant to be as super wide 76 inches. Not to mention a very poor or impossible place for any third rear passenger to sit. What a mess of thing now and into the future. J
No big loss if gets canned 
morgrp said:
Scrap both the b
ds and put the V8 to good use and make a new 928
Autocar put that question to Porsche in an interview the other week and they said it would require a completely new platform which would be too expensive to develop after the saloon platform.ds and put the V8 to good use and make a new 928I personally think the Panamera is a huge cock-up. Porsche may not be completely owned by VW but with the exception of some of the engines and styling there's little to differentiate a Cayenne, a Q7 and a Toureg, which is probably why the Cayenne cost less to develop than you might be lead to believe. This new platform has cost a fortune and is only of any use underpinning one car, which, it turns out, very few people actually want. Leave VAG luxobarges to Audi.
I can't help but feel that the rear-engined models from the 996 on effectively replaced the 928. Same performance and interior accommodation. Pity about the impractical layout as far as luggage is concerned, but the 997 is a more efficient way to high performance GT motoring than the 928 ever was.
I think VAG are in danger of turning into a German British Leyland. Is there sufficient differentiation between mid-range Skoda, Seat, VW and Audi saloons with the same engines? Austin, Morris, Wolseley, Riley and Vanden Plas used similar approaches to platform engineering and when the '70s crunch came, whole marques with decades of history ended up getting casually wiped out when their cars couldn't be justified any more. Same goes for the platform-sharing SUVs - are people going to put up with the Toureg's high price (for a VW) or the Cayenne's ugliness and inefficiency compared with the Q7 for much longer?
I'm struggling to comprehend how VW, a marque which essentially has 'prole cart' stamped on its front and rear in huge letters can ever be considered, in marketob
ks, a 'premium brand', especially when most Audis are practically identical. So where does that leave Skoda and Seat?Logically I'd think VW should be entry-level, bog-standard cars, nothing special (keep the Golf GTI though otherwise there would be outcry). Skoda should make tough, dependable utility vehicles like the Scout, Roomster and Yeti. All Seats should be low-slung, stylish, sporty and handle brilliantly, like Alfa Romeo. Audi should only build large, highly-priced, highly-specced (ie, no options list, you just get everything as standard) luxury cars (think how Jaguar have canned the X-Type and upped their image as a result), Bentley should stick to luxury saloons and coupes with unique (ie, not shared with the Phaeton) engines, Lamborghini should do supercars and nothing else, and Porsche should make sports cars. Bugatti are fine for occasional megabucks vanity projects, and if they ever wanted to go into F1, the name would be ideal.
Otherwise, VAG are condemning themselves to the same fate as BL, and the vast majority of its marques seem to exist in a vast grey area with no real product differentiation other than the badge on the nose - even in the upper echelons of its range. For example, why are we finding Lamborghini engines in Audis and Bentley engines in VWs? It'd be like BL stuffing a Jaguar V12 in a Wolseley 18/22.
What Car Magazine printed was BS. Sorry. The financial structure of the new VW group prohibits cancelling the Cayenne and the Panamera. In fact, the platform sharing must move forward, and the Porsche line will expand once again, as Martin Winterkorn has hinted at.
The reason is this: The Porsche and Piech families now own 50.1% of Porsche and 50% of VW. Hence, they have half the seats on the VW board and a blocking vote on any decision. Now consider their financial interests. With 50.1% of Porsche, or even a reduced share in the future after completion of the acquisition by VW, the Porsches and the Piechs stand to directly take 50% or so of Porsche operating profits, after expenses and reinvestment, as dividend. This money goes directly into their pockets. The rest goes to the VW group. While they also own 50% of VW, in any given year Porsche is likely to be much more profitable than VW as a whole. Thus, it is in the interest of the Porsche/Piech families to keep Porsche in a highly profitable position, the rest of VW be damned.
The VW "exec" who spoke to Car Magazine, whoever he was, was probably not high enough in the company to understand this new dynamic. However, it is there and if he thinks otherwise, it will rock his world. Now that the Porsches and Piechs are 50% owners, everyone from Winterkorn down must serve their financial interests if they want their employment contracts to last longer than the current model line of Porsches. In fact, it would be in their favor to:
A. Increase Porsche volumes with a new product line
B. Expand platform sharing using PORSCHE platforms so that Porsche's R&D costs could be further off loaded onto VW books, thus increasing Porsche group PROFITS.
This might change IF VW acquires nearly all of Porsche. However, there is NO word on when that will happen. In the meantime, VW does not even own a majority. Meanwhile, points A and B are both moving. For the moment, that's plenty indication of which way the wind is blowing.
Wait, but you say, the Porsches over extended themselves. Piech was defending VW against his cousins, this is so wrong. Well, yes, it may seem corrupt, but Porsche has been bailed out using VW and Qatar money, Piech was actually playing both sides to his own benefit, on board with the VW take over until near the very end (according to Businessweek), and there is now a new dynamic at VW.
The reason is this: The Porsche and Piech families now own 50.1% of Porsche and 50% of VW. Hence, they have half the seats on the VW board and a blocking vote on any decision. Now consider their financial interests. With 50.1% of Porsche, or even a reduced share in the future after completion of the acquisition by VW, the Porsches and the Piechs stand to directly take 50% or so of Porsche operating profits, after expenses and reinvestment, as dividend. This money goes directly into their pockets. The rest goes to the VW group. While they also own 50% of VW, in any given year Porsche is likely to be much more profitable than VW as a whole. Thus, it is in the interest of the Porsche/Piech families to keep Porsche in a highly profitable position, the rest of VW be damned.
The VW "exec" who spoke to Car Magazine, whoever he was, was probably not high enough in the company to understand this new dynamic. However, it is there and if he thinks otherwise, it will rock his world. Now that the Porsches and Piechs are 50% owners, everyone from Winterkorn down must serve their financial interests if they want their employment contracts to last longer than the current model line of Porsches. In fact, it would be in their favor to:
A. Increase Porsche volumes with a new product line
B. Expand platform sharing using PORSCHE platforms so that Porsche's R&D costs could be further off loaded onto VW books, thus increasing Porsche group PROFITS.
This might change IF VW acquires nearly all of Porsche. However, there is NO word on when that will happen. In the meantime, VW does not even own a majority. Meanwhile, points A and B are both moving. For the moment, that's plenty indication of which way the wind is blowing.
Wait, but you say, the Porsches over extended themselves. Piech was defending VW against his cousins, this is so wrong. Well, yes, it may seem corrupt, but Porsche has been bailed out using VW and Qatar money, Piech was actually playing both sides to his own benefit, on board with the VW take over until near the very end (according to Businessweek), and there is now a new dynamic at VW.
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