Beginner's guide to buying a classic car
Discussion
I've long contemplated buying a classic car as a project, such as a Triumph GT6 or an old Mini. I'd love to strip something right back to a bare shell and build it again from the ground up but have found the concept a little daunting without knowing where to start on identifying the right car to start with.
Note: It doesn't have to be a ground up rebuild to start with – ideally I would like to buy a car that runs that I can enjoy but inevitably I want to be prepared for an overhaul and major maintenance work.
Any tips or good resources to use on where to even start putting such a plan together? And things to consider such as tax, insurance, rust, parts availability, how to build a budget, etc?
Note: It doesn't have to be a ground up rebuild to start with – ideally I would like to buy a car that runs that I can enjoy but inevitably I want to be prepared for an overhaul and major maintenance work.
Any tips or good resources to use on where to even start putting such a plan together? And things to consider such as tax, insurance, rust, parts availability, how to build a budget, etc?
Edited by Ben Lowden on Wednesday 26th August 14:50
It is always cheaper and easier to buy a car that is good already than to rebuild one that isn't.
If looking for a restoration project, look for something that is complete, has not been messed about with a series of in-life modifications and bodges and which, when you are completely honest with yourself, falls within your technical capabilities to restore. If you're planning on learning how to weld as you go, don't buy something massively rotten/if you've never so much as changed a cylinder head gasket, don't buy one with a completely sized engine etc.
Finally; any resto project will need more work, take longer, and cost more than you ever estimate when you start the process.
I should also add that, of the two cars you mention, it's likely that a GT6 would be - all things being equal - an easier restoration prospect as it's more of a Meccano kit, whereas the mini has a complex and very rust-prone structural body shell but there are far more mini projects to choose from than GT6s. With a GT6 you are more likely to be re-restoring one that's already had some level of work
If looking for a restoration project, look for something that is complete, has not been messed about with a series of in-life modifications and bodges and which, when you are completely honest with yourself, falls within your technical capabilities to restore. If you're planning on learning how to weld as you go, don't buy something massively rotten/if you've never so much as changed a cylinder head gasket, don't buy one with a completely sized engine etc.
Finally; any resto project will need more work, take longer, and cost more than you ever estimate when you start the process.
I should also add that, of the two cars you mention, it's likely that a GT6 would be - all things being equal - an easier restoration prospect as it's more of a Meccano kit, whereas the mini has a complex and very rust-prone structural body shell but there are far more mini projects to choose from than GT6s. With a GT6 you are more likely to be re-restoring one that's already had some level of work
Edited by ClaphamGT3 on Wednesday 26th August 09:53
Ben,
The TSSC has many Local Area Groups, who used to hold monthly meets that are beginning to start up again. Find the local organiser's contact email and the meeing venue here: https://www.tssc.org.uk/tssc/areas_google.asp
I don't know Mini clubs, but no doubt they do something similar. If you can turn up at a monthly meet you may gain advice and help, and learn of cars available.
Good luck!
JOhn
The TSSC has many Local Area Groups, who used to hold monthly meets that are beginning to start up again. Find the local organiser's contact email and the meeing venue here: https://www.tssc.org.uk/tssc/areas_google.asp
I don't know Mini clubs, but no doubt they do something similar. If you can turn up at a monthly meet you may gain advice and help, and learn of cars available.
Good luck!
JOhn
(Road) Tax - no problem, you just pay it if the car is <40 yrs old or it's free for >40.
Insurance - there are plenty of Classic insurers, clubs sometimes have a deal with a company. It's fairly cheap, mine's about £200 including breakdown.
Parts - You can probably buy a complete new GT6 or Mini in parts, so that's not a problem. If you go for a more obscure model then parts might be a problem but often clubs get parts made.
The biggest issue is rust! Almost anything 40 years old that hasn't been restored will be rusty and if you can't weld it will be expensive to pay someone to do it, likely costing more than it's worth. If you can weld it'll probably take 3x as long as you think!
Maybe find an abandoned restoration where the rusty bits have been done and you can do the mechanical and trim?
Insurance - there are plenty of Classic insurers, clubs sometimes have a deal with a company. It's fairly cheap, mine's about £200 including breakdown.
Parts - You can probably buy a complete new GT6 or Mini in parts, so that's not a problem. If you go for a more obscure model then parts might be a problem but often clubs get parts made.
The biggest issue is rust! Almost anything 40 years old that hasn't been restored will be rusty and if you can't weld it will be expensive to pay someone to do it, likely costing more than it's worth. If you can weld it'll probably take 3x as long as you think!
Maybe find an abandoned restoration where the rusty bits have been done and you can do the mechanical and trim?
Something to bear in mind if you go down the classic Mini route - a bog standard Mini saloon will cost about the same to restore as a Mini Cooper or Cooper S since they share the same bodyshells (I'm talking about the 1961 - 71 cars here covering the Mk1, 2 and 3) but the Cooper or S will be worth a lot more in the long run. This only matters if you have an eye on recouping your outlay if you want to sell it later on.
P5BNij said:
Something to bear in mind if you go down the classic Mini route - a bog standard Mini saloon will cost about the same to restore as a Mini Cooper or Cooper S since they share the same bodyshells (I'm talking about the 1961 - 71 cars here covering the Mk1, 2 and 3) but the Cooper or S will be worth a lot more in the long run. This only matters if you have an eye on recouping your outlay if you want to sell it later on.
Wise words and same can be applied across the board. e.g TVR S lovely car but similar effort to rebuild/restore as a Griffith 500 but will only give a fraction of the uplift in price.Of course, this doesn't help if you have only funds to buy the bog standard mini rather than the Cooper.
Have you looked at the option of starting with a smaller and more manageable project such as an inexpensive stationary engine or a lawnmower and seeing how you get on with that? If you don't finish the smaller project then a car's probably not for you. If you do finish it to a decent standard it will give you some feel for what you're taking on.
Thanks for all of the input so far! I should have also added, it doesn't necessarily have to be a strip down rebuild to start with. More a case of how to find a decent example of something that ideally runs but I won't be scared of maintenance or a potential rebuild in the future.
I've built a kit car from scratch without a manual and a Caterham too (may as well have binned the manual for that!) so I'm fairly competent although I've never stripped down anything oily or attempted welding before. Not to say I couldn't learn, but that would be outside of my comfort zone for now.
Ultimately I think whatever I buy, rust or a rotten chassis is my biggest fear and I'm guessing the former is almost inevitable for something that hasn't been rebuilt at some stage. Hence the expectation to have to strip down and rebuild at some point
I've built a kit car from scratch without a manual and a Caterham too (may as well have binned the manual for that!) so I'm fairly competent although I've never stripped down anything oily or attempted welding before. Not to say I couldn't learn, but that would be outside of my comfort zone for now.
Ultimately I think whatever I buy, rust or a rotten chassis is my biggest fear and I'm guessing the former is almost inevitable for something that hasn't been rebuilt at some stage. Hence the expectation to have to strip down and rebuild at some point
9xxNick said:
Have you looked at the option of starting with a smaller and more manageable project such as an inexpensive stationary engine or a lawnmower and seeing how you get on with that? If you don't finish the smaller project then a car's probably not for you. If you do finish it to a decent standard it will give you some feel for what you're taking on.
That's a good shout – I've toyed with the idea of building a cafe racer for a few years, not that I even have a bike licence but it feels like a more manageable project to start with initially.9xxNick said:
Have you looked at the option of starting with a smaller and more manageable project such as an inexpensive stationary engine or a lawnmower and seeing how you get on with that? If you don't finish the smaller project then a car's probably not for you. If you do finish it to a decent standard it will give you some feel for what you're taking on.
You beat me too it.Best not start with a car restoration - it is the Everest of garage mechanics.
Lawnmower would be a massive job to make look like new - a car is that times 20.
A lawnmower done right completely is weeks - getting things coated / blast, ordering new parts, plus all the hours to take it apart (good luck with the seized and snapped bolts) then figuring out how the hell that one part went together (days) - not to mention all the research you'll need to do on the internet PLUS the amount of technical support you'll trawl through and wrong information on forums.
I restore motorbikes, about an 8th as involved as a car if that, but still a massive job. It took me an entire winter (November to April) about 5 nights a week, 4-5 hours per night to restore my Triumph - it did my head in. It's nothing to a car, just the body welding alone will send most normal people insane.
I can restore anything, but I still won't ever take on a car again.
If it were me I'd start with an old bicycle - try it, you will be amazed how involved a job it is to restore absolutely properly. All my stuff I restore to look used but mint - the extra time in the detailing is about 3 times that of most of the embarrassing substandard restorations I see people doing in bike world - I cringe. Worst thing with bikes is most people don't know how they work, and there is no room for error on the mechanicals. A 4 carb jap superbike that doesn't have the perfect carburation set up is just a disaster - most people don't even know how to set them up, or worse how to stop them destroying the engine"!!
Edited by wsn03 on Wednesday 26th August 14:52
Edited by wsn03 on Wednesday 26th August 15:00
I've restored a few cars on a nut and bolt basis including a Caterham, an Elan + 2 and a few Minis (current work in progress shown).
You need to break it down into a series of sub projects - engine, heater, sub frames, dash etc. otherwise you can get overwhelmed. It's great fun though and helps you get through the drudgery of regular work.
You need to break it down into a series of sub projects - engine, heater, sub frames, dash etc. otherwise you can get overwhelmed. It's great fun though and helps you get through the drudgery of regular work.
Ben Lowden said:
Ultimately I think whatever I buy, rust or a rotten chassis is my biggest fear and I'm guessing the former is almost inevitable for something that hasn't been rebuilt at some stage.
Perhaps look at doing a welding course at a local college? I did an 8 week course at Harlow College about 30 years ago and it was very helpful in getting the basics sorted and seeing whether I actually liked welding as something I could choose to do rather than had to do. After that it's mostly practice. It's also a very useful skill generally - I've made loads of things with welding that there's often no other sensible way to make.I would, of course, suggest a pre-war car and would come down firmly against the full Wheatley & Morgan strip-down etc.
Advantages include not having to have sheet steel bodywork and having a separate chassis frame made from thick enough metal that it may not have been weakened by rust.
Many optimists have stripped cars to their last nut and bolt (as suggested by W&M) before losing interest, thus effectively scrapping it
Getting such a car as a runner and then conducting what is called a rolling restoration means you can still drive it from time to time and remember why you liked the car. It also remains a car, not a heap of parts
Advantages include not having to have sheet steel bodywork and having a separate chassis frame made from thick enough metal that it may not have been weakened by rust.
Many optimists have stripped cars to their last nut and bolt (as suggested by W&M) before losing interest, thus effectively scrapping it
Getting such a car as a runner and then conducting what is called a rolling restoration means you can still drive it from time to time and remember why you liked the car. It also remains a car, not a heap of parts
Allan L said:
I would, of course, suggest a pre-war car and would come down firmly against the full Wheatley & Morgan strip-down etc.
Advantages include not having to have sheet steel bodywork and having a separate chassis frame made from thick enough metal that it may not have been weakened by rust.
Many optimists have stripped cars to their last nut and bolt (as suggested by W&M) before losing interest, thus effectively scrapping it
Getting such a car as a runner and then conducting what is called a rolling restoration means you can still drive it from time to time and remember why you liked the car. It also remains a car, not a heap of parts
Rolling restoration would be my recommended approach too Ben - whether separate chassis or unitary construction it is possible to find older cars that are mechanically tired and/or cosmetically challenged just through the passage of time, but have been basically cared for, remain un-bodged, potentially rustproofed from new and hence are not rotten basket cases. You can then practice your fledgling welding/spraying skills on one or two panels at a time, rather than the whole car and it remains largely usable throughout the process. As your initial efforts will potentially be a little 'agricultural', it may be best to limit your choice of car to something relatively low value - save winning Pebble Beach with your Bugatti Royale for when you've got the hang of it Advantages include not having to have sheet steel bodywork and having a separate chassis frame made from thick enough metal that it may not have been weakened by rust.
Many optimists have stripped cars to their last nut and bolt (as suggested by W&M) before losing interest, thus effectively scrapping it
Getting such a car as a runner and then conducting what is called a rolling restoration means you can still drive it from time to time and remember why you liked the car. It also remains a car, not a heap of parts
I suggest not thinking too logically or planning too much because if you add up the costs and all the hours and think about all the problems along the way you will never get started, and that would be a shame.
I have done bits and bobs with lots of cars but the only one i can say I 'restored' was a Morris Minor that took me my college vacations for two years. It was meant to take one summer vacation, and was meant to be a profitable venture. I ended up out of the money on it even though most of the labour was my own. I paid someone to do welding, but sprayed it myself.
Thirty years later it is still taxed and going, MOT'd every year until it became exempt. That says a lot for the litres of waxoil i pumped into it. I'm happy its still going strong and someone is enjoying it.. I'm pleased i did it, remember fondly my summer of wire brushing and scraping away old underseal. teasing out seized bolts, and narrowly avoiding injury when releasing the tension from the torsion bars with a scissor jack. At the time I swore at it profusely and it ate all my money.
Maybe when I retire I will do it again. Something vintage and simple, or maybe an early crossflow caterham.
Good luck!
I have done bits and bobs with lots of cars but the only one i can say I 'restored' was a Morris Minor that took me my college vacations for two years. It was meant to take one summer vacation, and was meant to be a profitable venture. I ended up out of the money on it even though most of the labour was my own. I paid someone to do welding, but sprayed it myself.
Thirty years later it is still taxed and going, MOT'd every year until it became exempt. That says a lot for the litres of waxoil i pumped into it. I'm happy its still going strong and someone is enjoying it.. I'm pleased i did it, remember fondly my summer of wire brushing and scraping away old underseal. teasing out seized bolts, and narrowly avoiding injury when releasing the tension from the torsion bars with a scissor jack. At the time I swore at it profusely and it ate all my money.
Maybe when I retire I will do it again. Something vintage and simple, or maybe an early crossflow caterham.
Good luck!
Rolling restoration – I like that term and that sounds exactly what I'll be looking for. Thank you for the continued comments and input!
Lotobear said:
I've restored a few cars on a nut and bolt basis including a Caterham, an Elan + 2 and a few Minis (current work in progress shown).
You need to break it down into a series of sub projects - engine, heater, sub frames, dash etc. otherwise you can get overwhelmed. It's great fun though and helps you get through the drudgery of regular work.
That looks fantastic and is what I'm dreaming of doing! Need to get a house with a garage first though; hopefully only a year or two away.You need to break it down into a series of sub projects - engine, heater, sub frames, dash etc. otherwise you can get overwhelmed. It's great fun though and helps you get through the drudgery of regular work.
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