HID lamps, legalities please

[Chris993C4]

Mr2Mike said:

Auto leveling systems are not designed to compensate for bumps in the road, they don't work anything like fast enough. They are simply to compensate for extra load in the rear of the car.

I've often wondered about this - luggage goes in the front of mine, which would make the headlights dip further...

How would a MOT tester check that a self-levelling system (which IIRC can just be Nivomat-type rear shocks) is fitted and working, especially with a car with rather firm suspension?

[Rockatansky]

Chris993C4 said:

How would a MOT tester check that a self-levelling system (which IIRC can just be Nivomat-type rear shocks) is fitted and working, especially with a car with rather firm suspension?

They can't, and the official line is that you should be given the benefit of the doubt.

"Vehicles equipped with High Intensity Discharge (HID) or LED dipped beam headlamps may be fitted with headlamp washers and a suspension or headlamp self levelling system.
Where such systems are fitted, they must work; however, it is accepted that it may not be possible to readily determine the functioning of self levelling systems. In such cases, the benefit of the doubt must be given."

Section 1.7 2012 MOT Inspection manual

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/MOT%20Inspec...

[14-7]

Nigel Worc's said:

Deva Link said:

It must be pretty random how it works anyway, the system does a one off check when the car is started (regardless of whether the lights are on or not) so if three lardy people got in the back, that would presumeably mean the lights would point too high.

Mine doesn't, it does a one off check when you switch the headlights on, but will then position itself to what I have selected, regardless of what's in the car.

And you definitely have HID's factory fitted?

I have never seen a car with manual angle selection when it's got HID's fitted (BMW/Merc/Audi/Rolls Royce and numerous others).

What car have you got?

[GreatGranny]

O/T a little but whats the best alternative if you don't want to fit a HID kit at vast expense and still be ok for next years MOT?

My car is a E36 and the OEM lights aren't the best plus I commute on some pretty horrible fast unlit A roads.

Sorry for hijack

[Kevin VRs]

Dr Doofenshmirtz said:

No they won't. Only if these items are fitted, and found to not work will they fail. Again, there are no specific requirements for after market HID kits.

Please can you point me to the legislation that states there is no requirement for self-levelling and washers when you fit HID headlamps?

It seems totally illogical that they are needed if OEM fitted to car but not otherwise.

[MaximumJed]

14-7 said:

And you definitely have HID's factory fitted?

I have never seen a car with manual angle selection when it's got HID's fitted (BMW/Merc/Audi/Rolls Royce and numerous others).

What car have you got?

Of course he doesn't have them factory fitted - that's why he's just bought a kit!

[Rockatansky]

Kevin VRs said:

Please can you point me to the legislation that states there is no requirement for self-levelling and washers when you fit HID headlamps?

It seems totally illogical that they are needed if OEM fitted to car but not otherwise.

Surely the legislation (if there were such legislation) would make it a requirement to have (say) self-levelling rather than state there were no requirement, so the question should be - Please can you point me to the legislation that states there is a requirement for self-levelling and washers when you fit HID headlamps?


As for it being illogical, I guess thats because these kinds of rules are generally not retrospective in application (daytime running lights being another such piece of EU tosh).

[Kevin VRs]

Rockatansky said:

Surely the legislation (if there were such legislation) would make it a requirement to have (say) self-levelling rather than state there were no requirement, so the question should be - Please can you point me to the legislation that states there is a requirement for self-levelling and washers when you fit HID headlamps?


As for it being illogical, I guess thats because these kinds of rules are generally not retrospective in application (daytime running lights being another such piece of EU tosh).

I see where you are coming from, but I believe I know the legislation where it states that washers and self-levelling must be fitted to OEM HID cars.

[lgw]

From the 1st January 2012 the new rules apply, therefore Vehicles fitted with aftermarket HID systems must also be fitted with properly working washer and levelling systems, if a mandatory headlamp cleaning or levelling system is missing, doesn't work or is defective the vehicle will fail its MOT

Edited by lgw on Tuesday 8th November 13:01

[Rockatansky]

lgw said:

From the 1st January 2012 the new rules apply, therefore Vehicles fitted with aftermarket HID systems must also be fitted with properly working washer and levelling systems,

I'd like to see exactly where in the testers manual it says that, as that is not my interpretation.

lgw said:

if a mandatory headlamp cleaning or levelling system is missing, doesn't work or is defective the vehicle will fail its MOT

This is more like it, although it is completely different to your first point.

[matchmaker]

I'm sure I remember seeing on another forum some time ago (possibly Briskoda) a case of a member with an Octavia vRS with OEM HID's who was stopped and issued with a FPN by an over-zealous plod who thought that the headlights weren't legal. IIRC, plod was actually travelling in the opposite direction, and turned round to follow and pull the Octy.

[Ean218]

Regardless of what any actual legislation may say, here is the advice the DFT intends to give out to testers about MOT changes next year.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/technicalpen...

The long and the short of it is that self-levelling and washers are to be expected with HIDs, OEM or aftermarket, and they should be working.

Absence or malfunction should result in an MOT fail, however there are a few, nicely vague, get out clauses, so at the end of the day it's going to be a case of how well you know your tester.

[Rockatansky]

Ean218 said:

Regardless of what any actual legislation may say, here is the advice the DFT intends to give out to testers about MOT changes next year.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/technicalpen...

The long and the short of it is that self-levelling and washers are to be expected with HIDs, OEM or aftermarket, and they should be working.

Absence or malfunction should result in an MOT fail, however there are a few, nicely vague, get out clauses, so at the end of the day it's going to be a case of how well you know your tester.

Thanks for the link, interesting reading.

It seems to fall back to the position that has been held by the DfT for some time - i.e. that 'in their opinion' after-market systems are not lawful unless they meet the type approval standards.

This, of course, is merely an opinion - and not one that (AFAIK) has ever been tested in court.

Hopefully we can look forward to seeing this opinion tested in the courts in order that the situation is clarified.

[Ean218]

Rockatansky said:

Hopefully we can look forward to seeing this opinion tested in the courts in order that the situation is clarified.

I think you may be unhappy with the potential outcome of a court case.

DFT said:

The following is the legal rationale:

The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.
Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.

However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).

For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply.

The very first point made would scupper any court case, notwithstanding any other arguments. The DFT feel they are doing people a favour by turning a blind eye to what they regard as properly installed HIDs. If pushed they will rely on the point that aftermarket is illegal, full stop.

[lgw]

Rockatansky said:

lgw said:

From the 1st January 2012 the new rules apply, therefore Vehicles fitted with aftermarket HID systems must also be fitted with properly working washer and levelling systems,

I'd like to see exactly where in the testers manual it says that, as that is not my interpretation.

lgw said:

if a mandatory headlamp cleaning or levelling system is missing, doesn't work or is defective the vehicle will fail its MOT

This is more like it, although it is completely different to your first point.

Sums up my point exactly taken from a paragraph of the previous attached link

The Department for Transport considers that after-market systems should be required to meet the same safety standards as that applied in respect of these lamps at vehicle Type Approval. Therefore, in order to pass the MOT test, vehicles fitted with after-market HID systems would also need to be fitted with headlamp cleaning and self-levelling systems.

[Rockatansky]

Ean218 said:

I think you may be unhappy with the potential outcome of a court case.

I wouldn't be unhappy at all, as regardless of the outcome it would provide some legal clarity and serve to put an end to countless threads like this which do nothing but speculate about differing opinions and interpretation.

[Rockatansky]

lgw said:

Rockatansky said:

lgw said:

From the 1st January 2012 the new rules apply, therefore Vehicles fitted with aftermarket HID systems must also be fitted with properly working washer and levelling systems,

I'd like to see exactly where in the testers manual it says that, as that is not my interpretation.

lgw said:

if a mandatory headlamp cleaning or levelling system is missing, doesn't work or is defective the vehicle will fail its MOT

This is more like it, although it is completely different to your first point.

Sums up my point exactly taken from a paragraph of the previous attached link

I said I'd like to see it, and voila...

Prior to reading the link provided by Ean218 I had only read the testers manual and was relying on that for information (which I don't think is unreasonable). The information in the link provided does indeed back up your point, although the testers manual does not.

[GC8]

HID lamps arent legal in the UK. Only vehicles which have HID lamps and which have EU-wide type approval, which over-rides UK law, are legal.

Talk of washers and perticularly self levelling beams is missing the point and simply incorrect (and the DfT site 'opinion' often knowledgeably quoted is rubbish).

[Goodwin]

lgw said:

From the 1st January 2012 the new rules apply, therefore Vehicles fitted with aftermarket HID systems must also be fitted with properly working washer and levelling systems, if a mandatory headlamp cleaning or levelling system is missing, doesn't work or is defective the vehicle will fail its MOT

Edited by lgw on Tuesday 8th November 13:01

IIRC the EU legislation regarding HID lights requires a headlight washing device. It does NOT actually specify self levelling systems - what it does require is that the headlights cannot vary from an acceptable aim irrespective of loading within the legal loading limits. eg 3 adults in the back seats and the boot fully loaded.
The aim range is only about 1 degree or so, so this means for most cars self levelling, but with a 2 seat car, ultrahard springs and a small or none existent boot you may be able to comply without self levelling, you may not like the ride though.

[Babu 01]

Goodwin said:

IIRC the EU legislation regarding HID lights requires a headlight washing device. It does NOT actually specify self levelling systems - what it does require is that the headlights cannot vary from an acceptable aim irrespective of loading within the legal loading limits. eg 3 adults in the back seats and the boot fully loaded.
The aim range is only about 1 degree or so, so this means for most cars self levelling, but with a 2 seat car, ultrahard springs and a small or none existent boot you may be able to comply without self levelling, you may not like the ride though.

Someone posted the legislation into a thread here recently, can't find it now though.

There is no mention of headlamp washers and the only requirements with regard to leveling were that that it could be adjusted from within the cabin, presumably to compensate for luggage or passengers.